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  1. #61
    The Patient OOMM's Avatar
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    Summoning a pet in a demon form puts pet summoning on a 1m cd, even if leaving the demon form. Obviously it shouldn't be able to drop demonform, then come back and summon again without a cd. But I've had my pet die right after summoning and been stuck with out a pet for almost a minute.
    Using computers to make demons kill dragons. OQMM@kt-us.

  2. #62
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    I don't think Immolation Aura is worth using against a single target. Its DPET/fury is very low. It's more difficult to do the math on the value of fury without simulating a rotation, but from the little I've tried to put together I've found that it will put you behind by about 300k damage. This number could be way off and it is possible that it is worth using, but from what I can tell this isn't the case.

    Once we can determine a value on fury then it will be easier to tell if going in to Dark Ap is worth it. It is an interesting idea though. Right now I've been trying:
    start at 200 fury
    use Wild Imps
    get to 1000 fury
    use Dark Soul and GoServ
    spend down to 500 and drop out of Meta
    rebuild to 1000 fury

    Demonic Calling is working in Meta and triggering off of Demonic Slash.

    Yes, Shadowflame costs 1000 fury in this patch, Carrion Swarm at 86 is normal though.
    Last edited by OOMM; 2012-04-09 at 05:01 AM.
    Using computers to make demons kill dragons. OQMM@kt-us.

  3. #63
    Shadowflame doesn't appear to be generating Fury at the moment, but even if it were, it doesn't seem mana efficient at 15 Fury for 6k mana. Is it intended to generate fury per target it afflicts in the same way as HoG?

    Edit: Seems the bug is with the Glyph, it doesn't generate any glyphed, but only 1 unglyphed regardless of how many targets it hits.

  4. #64
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    A couple of updates:

    We probably won't cast HoG while in casterform between 500f-1000f. This will be more solidly confirmed or possibly disproven with more math in time, but from the extensive napkin mathing I've started I have determined that the high fury gain/s won't be valuable enough to outweigh the low DPET unless you are outside of the normal phase sequence of: caster(500)>caster(1000)>meta(1000)>meta(500)>caster(500) repeat. This will happen on long phase transitions or pulls starting at 200f.

    We also won't cast Shadowflame while in Meta since it turns into Carrion Swarm at 86. This is probably worth casting for AoE, but its damage is not worth using for single target.
    Using computers to make demons kill dragons. OQMM@kt-us.

  5. #65
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    • Shadow Bolt damage has been increased by 40%. Now scales from 175% of Spell Power, up from 125%.
    • Soul Fire damage has been increased by 40%. Now scales from 175% of Spell Power, up from 125%.
    • (Designer Notes) - Demonology's DPS rotation is being adjusted. In the end it will do just as much as Affliction/Destro. Don't panic.
    • Shadowflame is now Breath of Gul'dan - Targets in a 10 yard cone in front of the caster take 1,015 to 1,122 Shadow damage and are afflicted by Shadowflame. (Shadowflame - Reduces movement speed by 30% and deals 1,284 [+ 20.0% of SP] Shadowflame damage over 6 sec. Generates 10 Demonic Fury every time it deals damage.)
    • Hand of Gul'dan now lands after 1.5 sec, down from 2.5 sec. Now applies Shadowflame to all enemies within 6 yards instead of Guldan's Grasp.
    • Metamorphosis now disables the use of damage over time spells.
    • Molten Core (Passive) - When your Shadow Bolt and Demonic Slash abilities are used on a target afflicted with Shadowflame, you have a 30% chance to trigger Molten Core. (Molten Core - Reduces the cast time of your Soul Fire ability by 50%.)
    • Glyph of Demon Hunting now reduces damage taken by 10%. Up from 5%.
      Glyph of Lash of Pain replaced with Glyph of Doom - Teaches you the ability Doom. (Doom - Inflicts impending doom upon the target, causing ((1,068 + Spell Power) * 4) Shadow damage over 60 sec. Replaces Corruption.)
    • Glyph of Shadowflame now increases your Shadowflame's slow by 30%, but Hand of Gul'dan and Breath of Gul'dan no longer have charges.
    This changes the rotation only a little really. Use Soul Fire on Molten Core. Use BoG and HoG on cd, after setting it up to alternate Shadowflame debuff to maximize its uptime.

    The Doom Glyph is a little odd and no Corruption in a demon form is weird. Will have to wait until the patch is pushed to really see how it all works. I hope there are some fury/mana cost adjustments too.
    Last edited by OOMM; 2012-04-11 at 05:24 AM.
    Using computers to make demons kill dragons. OQMM@kt-us.

  6. #66
    Good lord, I've always liked demo(I was rolling demo in wrath before it got buffed!) but reading this thread makes demo in MoP sound like a spec I can totally write off:-/

  7. #67
    I think the glyph of doom was made for demo since there's a restriction on using dots while in demo, so you would want to place doom before going into form so it lasts long enough imo.

  8. #68
    It seems that Fel Flame might now generate 15 fury, according to it's spell details.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by OOMM View Post
    This changes the rotation only a little really. Use Soul Fire on Molten Core. Use BoG and HoG on cd, after setting it up to alternate Shadowflame debuff to maximize its uptime.

    The Doom Glyph is a little odd and no Corruption in a demon form is weird. Will have to wait until the patch is pushed to really see how it all works. I hope there are some fury/mana cost adjustments too.
    Soul Fire is still going to be a mighty expensive cast, so I hope there are some mana adjustments too.

    No DoTs during Meta is probably to deal with the buff they have while casted under Meta to prevent people just popping into Meta to cast them before dropping out again. However, if Corruption is still being refreshed by Touch of Chaos, and they fix the range of that, then that will only really have any impact on Doom.

    Damage from Shadowflame (now breath of Gul'dan) looks nerfed, maybe to remove it from the single target rotation? But then those Fury returns are immense, as well as the chance to proc Molten Core being desirable. It would also clearly promote dropping Meta to use that for the Fury returns to sustain the high cost of Immolation Aura. Very weird mechanic there. Maybe Carrion Swarm will also apply Shadowflame? Also, didn't they drop the MC effect being procced from Shadow Bolt in Cata's Beta because it was just a straight up bad mechanic?

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Soul Fire is still going to be a mighty expensive cast, so I hope there are some mana adjustments too.

    No DoTs during Meta is probably to deal with the buff they have while casted under Meta to prevent people just popping into Meta to cast them before dropping out again. However, if Corruption is still being refreshed by Touch of Chaos, and they fix the range of that, then that will only really have any impact on Doom.

    Damage from Shadowflame (now breath of Gul'dan) looks nerfed, maybe to remove it from the single target rotation? But then those Fury returns are immense, as well as the chance to proc Molten Core being desirable. It would also clearly promote dropping Meta to use that for the Fury returns to sustain the high cost of Immolation Aura. Very weird mechanic there. Maybe Carrion Swarm will also apply Shadowflame? Also, didn't they drop the MC effect being procced from Shadow Bolt in Cata's Beta because it was just a straight up bad mechanic?
    sometimes I feel like this is what the devs are doing :


  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Shadowflame .... maybe to remove it from the single target rotation?
    Removing BoG from the rotation is no problem, as HoG is applying the same shadowflame dot if i read that correctly
    So we could still get the shadowflame dot and thus the fury generation from ranged position, where we couldn't use BoG
    And when i sum it up, i think the only remaining melee-requirement of the spec is immolation aura ?

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by nipil View Post
    Removing BoG from the rotation is no problem, as HoG is applying the same shadowflame dot if i read that correctly
    So we could still get the shadowflame dot and thus the fury generation from ranged position, where we couldn't use BoG
    And when i sum it up, i think the only remaining melee-requirement of the spec is immolation aura ?
    Immolation Aura is too expensive on Fury to use on a single target. The cooldowns on HoG and Shadowflame will essentially mean you want to weave them to maximise the debuff uptime.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    The cooldowns on HoG and Shadowflame will essentially mean you want to weave them to maximise the debuff uptime.
    Yes, but only if HoG cooldown and Shadowflame duration stay the same, these could hopefully change to render BoG not mandatory

  14. #74
    I haven't been on Beta, but how long is a full-power Demon Form lasting these days? I can't imagine that it goes over a minute or so if you're actually casting flat-out, so not being able to cast Bane of Doom (as opposed to the semi-Doom via the glyph) in-form is more or less a moot point.

    Speaking of the Corruption-Doom, we BADLY need to see what its tick rate is going to be like and if it will generate Demonic Fury (and if so, how much). That glyph could become an instant necessity to free up time (not to mention the scale factors could be incredible, as posted on the front page it will scale with fully four times your spell power). Not to mention it would make that Corruption cast go, again, for a full minute. Enough time to pop the DoTs off, hit your Cooldowns and go Demon, only to finish up well before you need to worry about refreshing.

    EDIT: forget what I said about scale factors, after some digging in WoWDB I found that this works out to be identical with Corruption over the course of a minute (Corruption is 120% over 18 seconds). Still might be worthwhile for saving you a GCD every 20 seconds or so, if the DF generation rates are the same or at least close.
    Last edited by PsyBomb; 2012-04-11 at 11:55 AM.

  15. #75
    I suspect the Doom glyph is one of those 'lower DPS, better QoL' glyphs they've been talking about implementing, where the QoL improvement for a lot of players should end up being a DPS increase, where a more skilled player would (if ToC no longer refreshes Corruption, or remains a melee ability and you're expecting to be at range) drop Meta to refresh Corruption to maintain optimal DPS. That said, it's pretty retarded to that we might have to glyph for that, rather than simply be able to cast dots while in Meta; I could probably understand if it was just BoD that wasn't castable.

    In terms of Meta uptime, I'm getting roughly 45s, with about 70s downtime without abusing the Legendary glitch (it can go on and on with it), this feels a decent amount without getting to the point of feeling it's the norm.

  16. #76
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    • Shadow Bolt damage has been increased by 40%. Now scales from 175% of Spell Power, up from 125%.
    • Soul Fire damage has been increased by 40%. Now scales from 175% of Spell Power, up from 125%.
    • Shadowflame is now Breath of Gul'dan - Targets in a 10 yard cone in front of the caster take 1,015 to 1,122 Shadow damage and are afflicted by Shadowflame. (Shadowflame - Reduces movement speed by 30% and deals 1,284 [+ 20.0% of SP] Shadowflame damage over 6 sec. Generates 10 Demonic Fury every time it deals damage.)
    • Hand of Gul'dan now lands after 1.5 sec, down from 2.5 sec. Now applies Shadowflame to all enemies within 6 yards instead of Guldan's Grasp.
    • Metamorphosis now disables the use of damage over time spells.
    • Molten Core (Passive) - When your Shadow Bolt and Demonic Slash abilities are used on a target afflicted with Shadowflame, you have a 30% chance to trigger Molten Core. (Molten Core - Reduces the cast time of your Soul Fire ability by 50%.)
    • Glyph of Demon Hunting now reduces damage taken by 10%. Up from 5%.
    • Glyph of Lash of Pain replaced with Glyph of Doom - Teaches you the ability Doom. (Doom - Inflicts impending doom upon the target, causing ((1,068 + Spell Power) * 4) Shadow damage over 60 sec. Replaces Corruption.)
    • Glyph of Shadowflame now increases your Shadowflame's slow by 30%, but Hand of Gul'dan and Breath of Gul'dan no longer have charges.
    I'm quoting the notes here for easy reference. I did some tests on premade and some on my raid geared level 86. I tried to mention it where it might matter.

    Here are the new Dark Apotheosis graphics.




    • Bane of Doom has been removed.
    • Corruption turns into a spell called "Doom" and ticks for 9k dmg every 13.5s over 60s in my premade's gear, 60f every tick. So it looks like it continues to scale with haste unlike the old BoD.
    • The button Doom turns into Corruption while in Meta, it is not castable. The Doom debuff stays on the target.
    • Dark Apotheosis has Corruption available even while glyphed. It is castable in this form.
    • Corruption and glyphed Corruption can't be cast in Meta.
    • Corruption unglyphed is 11k over 18.7s. 12f per tick.
    • There is a weird fury bug, it doesn't seem to decay right, or just generates some small amount on its own while I stand there idling in Meta.
    • HoG has 2 charges now, these are shared with Breath of Gul'dan (and Carrion Swarm)which also has 2 charges. Hog costs 6k mana and BoG 7.2k (at level 86.)
    • HoG and BoG have a 15s cd if at 0 charges.
    • HoG and BoG slowing debuff only stacks to 30%
    • HoG and BoG do 7 ticks and give 10f per tick. (This was at 11% haste)
    • BoG does about 26k dmg in my 402ilvl gear. HoG does 25k. Seems like the only reason to use HoG is for the ranged AoE.
    • Glyph of Shadowflame is NYI and doesn't appear to do anything.
    • Glyph of Metamorphosis is still Glyph of Demon Hunting.
    • Dark Apotheosis's graphic is now translucent Metamorphosis wings on the back of your character.
    • You can mount and stay in DA. The wings fade though.
    • Dark Apotheosis isn't currently a stance. Metamorphosis is the only button on that bar.
    • Dark Apotheosis doesn't have a cooldown or put Meta on cd.
    • Meta still has a cd and puts DA on cd. Leaving Meta doesn't trigger a cd.
    • Dark Apotheosis casts Shadow Bolt. Demonic Slash doesn't appear to be available.
    • Demonic Slash in Meta seems to give 100f on one of my warlocks and cost 40f on the other.
    • Meta and DA do have the Touch of Chaos autoattack but there seems to be a bug with autoattacking in general.
    • Molten Core procs randomly while Shadowflame debuff is up, this is supposed to be from casting a Shadow Bolt or Demonic Slash, but Shadowflame alone will do it.
    • Soul Fire doesn't have a debuff (Decimation is gone) and its cast time is 4s.
    • Soul Fire will buff Molten Core if it hits a target below 25%. Molten Core reduces the cast and mana cost by 50% and gives 20f.
    • Molten Core can stack to at least 4. The tool tip stacks the fury bonus, 20/40/60/80, but doesn't ever actually give more than 60.
    • There might be a different bugged version of Molten Core, this version gives 25% cast time and mana cost reduction.
    • Fel Flame gives 15f now. I also got a Burning Ember from it. Only in the combat log, but weird.
    • Soul Fire seems to be instant sometimes. There is no buff to indicate this, but once you cast you gain Molten Core. My test for this was to shoot a mob with Fel Flame until about 5k hp, then shoot Soul Fire, it would be instant. Is this actually Destruction spec mechanics spilling into Demo?
    • Shadow Bolt does about 5k more damage (from 16k to 21k) on my 402 ilvl lock.
    • Soul Fire does more damage, I didn't record the numbers though.
    Doom seems like the way to go for Demonology since we don't have to worry about refreshing in Meta. Corruption gives about 10% less dps, but about 5% more fury in exchange for harder micro management and two more globals.


    Tell me if I got anything wrong, some things were inconsistent between the premade and my copy. A lot of little bugs made it hard to figure out what is really going on.
    Last edited by OOMM; 2012-04-12 at 06:08 PM.
    Using computers to make demons kill dragons. OQMM@kt-us.

  17. #77
    While I welcome the shared cooldown of Breath and Hand of Gul'dan, the new Molten Core is sounding like an (exactly) half arsed Hot Streak. Why must I work for a living ;_;

  18. #78
    The Patient OOMM's Avatar
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    A couple of other notes:

    Neither HoG nor BoG can be used in Meta.

    Touch of Chaos does scale with haste too, I hadn't noticed or thought about that before.

    Soul Fire's fury cost under Molten Core is 50f and it generates 60f with a loss of two Touch of Chaos (5f) per Soul Fire, so it really zeros out. With a pet on the boss generating fury and nothing but Soul Fire, Wild Imps, and Immo Aura to cost fury, we might actually use IA during execute if we can stay in Meta through its high cost.
    Using computers to make demons kill dragons. OQMM@kt-us.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by OOMM View Post
    A couple of other notes:

    Neither HoG nor BoG can be used in Meta.

    Touch of Chaos does scale with haste too, I hadn't noticed or thought about that before.

    Soul Fire's fury cost under Molten Core is 50f and it generates 60f with a loss of two Touch of Chaos (5f) per Soul Fire, so it really zeros out. With a pet on the boss generating fury and nothing but Soul Fire, Wild Imps, and Immo Aura to cost fury, we might actually use IA during execute if we can stay in Meta through its high cost.
    Taking Service will likely offer that extra Fury then?

    Given this note however:
    Originally Posted by MMO-Champion
    # (Designer Notes) - Demonology's DPS rotation is being adjusted. In the end it will do just as much as Affliction/Destro. Don't panic.

    It's probably fair to say they're aware they've had to revisit the drawing board for Demo and we'll be getting more things to do in future builds, rendering any speculation at this point is pretty meaningless. Here's hoping for Immolate back (now that Destro seems to have Corruption), and that SB is simply the placeholder 'procer' for Molten Core until that happens.

  20. #80
    Don't get me wrong, seeing "Don't panic" in designer notes, 3 weeks into a Beta that's had a good couple of years of development time thrown at it worries me. It worries me a lot. On the other hand, the fact it's there at all does imply someone may have just woken the fuck up.

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