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  1. #81
    The Patient OOMM's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'm just trying to figure out what is going on now so we know what needs to be changed at least. Demonology is basically NYI.

    The rotation is broken but it should be something like this for now:
    Doom
    Soul Fire if Molten Core
    BoG
    Shadow Bolt
    Meta at 1000
    Touch of Chaos
    ImmoAura
    Demonic Slash
    Drop Meta at 500

    Writing that out makes it more complicated than it is. Being in Meta isn't even a dps increase because the only spell that gets buffed is Hellfire. Slash is better than Sbolt, but we miss all the other spells. I hope the next patch is soon, but I don't think Blizzard knows what they want to do with this class/spec.

    One other side note is that Dark Apotheosis costs 100f to enter now.
    Using computers to make demons kill dragons. OQMM@kt-us.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Don't get me wrong, seeing "Don't panic" in designer notes, 3 weeks into a Beta that's had a good couple of years of development time thrown at it worries me. It worries me a lot. On the other hand, the fact it's there at all does imply someone may have just woken the fuck up.
    I'm not really surprised that Blizzard's Devs and CMs feel the need to use non-direct forms of communication to give feedback to the class given the MASSIVE backlash the community throws at them, even for GOOD changes. The recent patch changes are significant in how they affect Demo, but they aren't huge mechanically. HoG and BoG function similarly to how they did before the patch, though their new effects change up our otherwise lackluster single-target rotation (which is something many demo 'locks have been concerned about). Losing a DoT is a significant DPS loss, and HoG still feels clunky to use on single-targets, but I'm pretty confident X is aware of this and has a firm direction in mind for these changes.

    "So we'll hate him. Because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A dark knight."

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Don't get me wrong, seeing "Don't panic" in designer notes, 3 weeks into a Beta that's had a good couple of years of development time thrown at it worries me. It worries me a lot. On the other hand, the fact it's there at all does imply someone may have just woken the fuck up.
    Couple years of internal development, sure -- but only a few weeks of player feedback. We'll probably see level 90 opened up some time early May, and raid testing through May/June ... so I'd say we probably have until mid/late June before we can say "well I guess this is what they're shipping with". Assuming they're printing/shipping discs in July for us to be able to buy in August ... and even then, chance for last-minute alterations that would come with the installation patch via download.

    I don't think they would have included the "don't panic" thing if they weren't both a bit ahead in their internal build but also looking to at least consider incorporating some feedback-based changes.

  4. #84
    Given all the weirdness going on, i'd say just wait for the next build. They seem to have been caught in the middle of changes here.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    Couple years of internal development, sure -- but only a few weeks of player feedback. We'll probably see level 90 opened up some time early May, and raid testing through May/June ... so I'd say we probably have until mid/late June before we can say "well I guess this is what they're shipping with". Assuming they're printing/shipping discs in July for us to be able to buy in August ... and even then, chance for last-minute alterations that would come with the installation patch via download.

    I don't think they would have included the "don't panic" thing if they weren't both a bit ahead in their internal build but also looking to at least consider incorporating some feedback-based changes.
    I don't doubt that they have changes in mind, but to have had so long to develop things internally, then to have got things so wrong as to have to return completely to the drawing board straight away is not a good sign. They've ended up with 3 months to do something they've had over 2 years to work on; it's a very bad position to be in; and we all know too well how Blizzard like to take their time with things.

    Also, when someone says 'Don't panic', that's exactly when you need to start worrying.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2012-04-12 at 06:33 PM.

  6. #86
    The Patient OOMM's Avatar
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    To me, it seems like we are in Alpha. They just called it Beta to have enough time fit in enough waves where the subscribers get in to have a look around and get bored and leave in time for the next wave of invites. I trust that they can do a decent job with the class, we are just getting a chance to see all the rejected models first hand.
    Using computers to make demons kill dragons. OQMM@kt-us.

  7. #87
    They are testing the big parts now (content, load, back-end) :
    - it's hard to make many iterations on big parts, as it takes a huge load of time
    - thus you have to be very carefull and plan things good for these big blocks

    Class mechanics is a small parts (implementation-wise) :
    - it's easy to test many many small parts, laid out in many iterations
    - thus you can implement/design things progressively and loosely, straightening things up as you go

    IMHO most of the current beta effort is not yet put into the class mechanics, they have "more important" things to do.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by OOMM View Post
    Soul Fire's fury cost under Molten Core is 50f and it generates 60f with a loss of two Touch of Chaos (5f) per Soul Fire, so it really zeros out. With a pet on the boss generating fury and nothing but Soul Fire, Wild Imps, and Immo Aura to cost fury, we might actually use IA during execute if we can stay in Meta through its high cost.
    It's possible that this was a bug, but more likely that I didn't test things correctly. Soul Fire in Meta is not granting any fury. It does cost 50f (with Molten Core) and stops Touch of Chaos though.
    Using computers to make demons kill dragons. OQMM@kt-us.

  9. #89
    Brewmaster smegdawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OOMM View Post
    To me, it seems like we are in Alpha. They just called it Beta to have enough time fit in enough waves where the subscribers get in to have a look around and get bored and leave in time for the next wave of invites. I trust that they can do a decent job with the class, we are just getting a chance to see all the rejected models first hand.
    Been telling my guildies who are crying about not being in Beta yet this exact same thing.

    The only thing that saddens me about this is that the game probably won't release until October- November, and the nat that point they might say hey lets just release it in December.

    Really not sure if I can stay interested in grinding out achievements till then.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    Couple years of internal development, sure -- but only a few weeks of player feedback. We'll probably see level 90 opened up some time early May, and raid testing through May/June ... so I'd say we probably have until mid/late June before we can say "well I guess this is what they're shipping with". Assuming they're printing/shipping discs in July for us to be able to buy in August ... and even then, chance for last-minute alterations that would come with the installation patch via download.

    I don't think they would have included the "don't panic" thing if they weren't both a bit ahead in their internal build but also looking to at least consider incorporating some feedback-based changes.
    Yet warlocks specifically, and that one spec is the only location where such a note exists.
    Therefore yes I would say we have good reason to question just what the intent has been with warlocks.
    Yes blizzard are truly lost as to what to do with warlocks, each and every expansion.

  11. #91
    Yeah, maybe you guys are right. I just really had a hard time believing they would put that line in if they didn't have something up their sleeves that would make us go "oh, they were right that we shouldn't have panicked", but I guess it's hard to argue against the historical trends when there's not really any current evidence to suggest it'd be different this time ...

    Maybe I just wanted to believe we wouldn't be going through major iterations for the entire expansion yet again

  12. #92
    I'm pretty sure "Don't Panic" is a reference to the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

  13. #93
    Interesting stuff from GC about Demo:

    - You aren’t intended to be a melee caster in Meta. Things like Demonic Leap, Carrion Swarm and Immolation Aura are more situational and fun toys than core rotational spells you need on a challenging raid boss. We did experiment with Demo spending more time in melee earlier on, but we have backed off of that for some of the reasons you guys mention.

    - The basic rotation is something like: Keep Corruption up. Use Hand of Gul’dan on cooldown. Respond to Molten Core procs with Soul Fire. Use Shadowbolt when there is nothing else to do. Fel Flame is for movement. Breath of Gul’dan is for melee.

    - During Meta, all of your rotational spells should cost Fury. You shouldn’t have to pay nearly any attention to mana.
    The basic mechanic of Demonic Fury is to build to 1000, go into Metamorphosis, and then pop out again when you reach 500. If you need that extra dps *right now*, you stay in Metamorphosis until you run out.

    - There’s a bug right now where when you exit Metamorphosis, it drains half of your remaining Fury. It’s the same bug causing the DK spell conversion to drain all of your runic power.


    And a bit later in another post:

    Question by forum poster:

    Is our Metamorphosis rotation expected to be similar to our caster from rotation? Right now, since Meta has no way to apply Shadowflame it's pretty much just Demonic Slash spam until you get near 500 fury.


    Answer by GC:

    Use Demonic Slash and use Soul Fire when you get a Molten Core proc. The Molten Core procs will come from Wild Imps.

    Wild Imps has changed so that imps consistently proc from your Shadowbolt and Demonic Slash. The Wild Imps in turn can proc Molten Core. If you like the old Wild Imps mechanic, you can recreate it with a glyph.

    We are experimenting a lot with Demo, so let us know how these latest changes feel. We don't feel that the older design of Demo (use both Fire and Shadow spells with lots of demon damage) was super compelling. It is a spec that has wanted a home for some time. Affliction and Destruction by comparison have a stronger kit.

    End post


    I think especially the last bit is interesting, so they are looking to build a stronger image for Demo by buildnig on the Meta form. Not unexpected, but nice to see it so boldly stated.


    EDIT: The thread on official forums where this is all from: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...33895?page=1#1
    Last edited by xskarma; 2012-04-13 at 05:51 PM.
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  14. #94
    The Patient OOMM's Avatar
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    Two single target spells in Meta is pretty boring. Seems like they plan to take out Touch of Chaos too. At least they have a direction.
    Using computers to make demons kill dragons. OQMM@kt-us.

  15. #95
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OOMM View Post
    Two single target spells in Meta is pretty boring. Seems like they plan to take out Touch of Chaos too. At least they have a direction.
    Why would they take out Touch of Chaos? It's our only way of keeping up Corruption during Meta. I do agree though that simply spamming DS during Meta will probably feel rather weird.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by OOMM View Post
    Two single target spells in Meta is pretty boring. Seems like they plan to take out Touch of Chaos too. At least they have a direction.
    The direction is they realised their melee experiment was a failure and they don't know what to do next...

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon View Post
    Why would they take out Touch of Chaos? It's our only way of keeping up Corruption during Meta. I do agree though that simply spamming DS during Meta will probably feel rather weird.
    Ray of Twilight (Fel Flame + Meta) still refreshes Corruption, though it does need to be changed to be more usable, especially while moving. Doing damage in a line is kind of a neat idea, but it's difficult to aim correctly even on flat ground. Alternatively, you could go for the Glyph of Doom and not worry about it nearly as much.

    Demonic Slash spam is pretty much all Meta does right now, but with a sufficient level of Molten Core procs and a change to Corruption maintenance this'll hopefully change.

  18. #98
    I liked the idea of melee-range Demo, personally. I know plenty of folks think it doesn't fit for a caster, but I really like that not only are the abilities/flavor/etc different, but I literally have to be in a different freaking position relative to the boss than the other specs.

    Personal preference, but I guess Blizz has chosen to back off of it. And I can totally understand the reasoning (fights like Domo), just I thought it was a really cool idea -- we go all Hulk Smash mode when popping Meta and jump on the enemy (literally) and (Demonic) Slash away at it (literally).

  19. #99
    You'll still do that in AoE packs. Just not all of the time.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    I liked the idea of melee-range Demo, personally. I know plenty of folks think it doesn't fit for a caster, but I really like that not only are the abilities/flavor/etc different, but I literally have to be in a different freaking position relative to the boss than the other specs.

    Personal preference, but I guess Blizz has chosen to back off of it. And I can totally understand the reasoning (fights like Domo), just I thought it was a really cool idea -- we go all Hulk Smash mode when popping Meta and jump on the enemy (literally) and (Demonic) Slash away at it (literally).
    It's not the concept, it's purely practical implementation. Even with the 8 yard range on Shadowflame, chasing a boss that's being kited like Shannox, Nefarion, Razorscale etc etc is just an absolute and unnecessary ballache for a caster. Enforcing a 5 yard, or worse genuine Melee limitation on that is downright sadism. It wont ever have worked, without changing everything to instants, at which point we're no longer a caster - that's too big a change to be considered tenable, or even necessary, it could easily be argued there are too many melee specs and not enough spots in a raid to fit them in.

    If you want to play a melee caster, Enhancement is a really nice spec, it works because it's made to work in that position from the outset.

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