1. #1041
    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    Supremacy gives you a 50% mortal strike as Demonology, an AoE friendly dispel and the ability to CC any creature type.
    You forgot Invader Zim voiceovers too.
    Last edited by Rethul Ur No; 2012-08-21 at 10:04 AM.

  2. #1042
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    Supremacy might be the one for high movement fights.
    On high movement service and supremacy got the Same utility, so you'll take the one with the highest damage output, and that service in that case.

    @Xelnath: yeah, that seems to be its only strength, but its the question if it will be worth using if for this. And @ wrathguard, like i already said, it's weaker than felguard, and thats an about 5k dps los with t13h gear, because its like you just skipped the tier and playing without a grimoire. Although, those 5k came from simcraft, so ist could be wrong, but wrathguards damage was tested ingame

  3. #1043
    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    ...an AoE friendly dispel...
    I'm not sure if it has been fixed but I was trying to use the dispel on the trash that petrifies you in Heroic: Vaults and it wouldn't remove the stacks at the time of testing. I haven't had a chance to test it on anything else that healers were needing help dispelling but... well I guess I should test it again before I keep complaining.
    Gamer, Nerd, Physicist. What more could you want?! Well fine, I have a youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/shaidyadvice and a stream: www.twitch.tv/shaidyadvice I'm currently spending my free time with the fine fellows and ladies over at Death and Taxes.

  4. #1044
    Since Corruption isn't affected by Meta anymore, I wonder if it's still worth going into Meta to refresh it - since using a Touch of Chaos would technically be higher dpct than manually recasting Corruption, but then there's less chance of having enough fury during Dark Soul...

  5. #1045
    Quote Originally Posted by Valyna View Post
    You are misunderstanding me. Service and sacrifice are the two viable speccs, but supremacy is the problem. It has no strength compared to the others. While service gives burst and sacrifice gives utility in fights we already mentioned, supremacy has nothing. Thats why supremacy needs to be stronger than the others in patchwerk fights, so it would be the "normal" choice, if you dont need burst or "no-pet-utility".
    Blizzard doesn't balance that way. Specs that excel in short-term burst don't (in theory) do more sustained dps than specs that are more consistent. Not saying it shouldn't be balanced in the way you describe, just that Blizzard doesn't see it that way.

    I kind of feel that's the best way to go about it though. Since burst specs are less effective when their cooldowns are down it can be convenient to be a spec that can put out damage consistently, if you need short-term damage twice or more before burst cooldowns are up.

  6. #1046
    Quote Originally Posted by Valyna View Post
    You are misunderstanding me. Service and sacrifice are the two viable speccs, but supremacy is the problem. It has no strength compared to the others. While service gives burst and sacrifice gives utility in fights we already mentioned, supremacy has nothing. Thats why supremacy needs to be stronger than the others in patchwerk fights, so it would be the "normal" choice, if you dont need burst or "no-pet-utility".
    It has no real weakness either...

  7. #1047
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    If felguard/wrathguard is the only pet you ever play with then, yes, supremacy is currently worthless because wrathguard is worthless.

    But Supremacy Fel Imp does very good single-Target DPS, has that incredibly useful multi-target dispel, and with Glyph of Demon Training he has superior target switching capabilities of any pet. Also Void Lord is a wonderful soloing pet and perhaps one of the best pocket-tanks in the games.

  8. #1048
    and dont forget that little heal!!!!!!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by adam86shadow View Post
    I hear people say bring War back to World of Warcraft, well how about bringing World back to World of Warcraft

  9. #1049
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    It has no real weakness either...
    Compared to what? Compared to service, it has a weak burst, and compared to sacrifice its weak on targetswitching or alysrazar-like bosses and its good that way because its their identity, but supremacy needs a real strength to make it worth picking it and I don´t think that those "better" special skills are an equal strength.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    But Supremacy Fel Imp does very good single-Target DPS, has that incredibly useful multi-target dispel, and with Glyph of Demon Training he has superior target switching capabilities of any pet. Also Void Lord is a wonderful soloing pet and perhaps one of the best pocket-tanks in the games.
    And although its weaker than service / sacrifice. Like I said before: If you are raiding in a progress guild, you´ll never take the talent you like the most, but the one that gives the highest damage output or the best utility for the respective bossfight.
    I can also remember that blizzard wanted the pets to do the same amount of damage so we can pick them for their special skills instead of their dps, but i guess this idea got lost in the twisting nether...
    Last edited by Valyna; 2012-08-21 at 04:32 PM.

  10. #1050
    Supremacy does have a bit more than better special skills. It's easier because you don't need to track the cooldown and try time it with procs etc. It should give pet 20% more damage (but appears to be bugged atm). Service has a maximum uptime of ~17%. Of course service can be lined up with stuff to make it do better damage but then again, waiting for procs or buffs will make you lose some uptime with it.

    I agree that service is stronger when used right but I think supremacy has its uses. At the very least many casuals will like the ease of use and new demon skins so I think it will be popular. It's not like Blizzard only designs the game for the better players.
    Last edited by 6kle; 2012-08-21 at 04:56 PM.

  11. #1051
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valyna View Post
    I can also remember that blizzard wanted the pets to do the same amount of damage so we can pick them for their special skills instead of their dps, but i guess this idea got lost in the twisting nether...
    I don't think this has been lost per se, it's just really hard to do among all bug fixing and damage reallocating. I think pet balancing is rather far down on the priority list.

    I.E. i still have my fingers crossed that all pets will have interchangeable single-target dps, with felguard better dps for AoE, and Voidwalker better dps when tanking.

    A man can dream.
    Last edited by Grubjuice; 2012-08-21 at 06:09 PM.

  12. #1052
    Quote Originally Posted by Valyna View Post
    Compared to what? Compared to service, it has a weak burst, and compared to sacrifice its weak on targetswitching or alysrazar-like bosses and its good that way because its their identity, but supremacy needs a real strength to make it worth picking it and I don´t think that those "better" special skills are an equal strength.
    The weakness is that you have to use it properly. Use it badly by sitting it on cooldown too long or not sitting it on cooldown long enough to meet a vulnerability phase, and you can loose a decent chunk of damage.

    And although its weaker than service / sacrifice. Like I said before: If you are raiding in a progress guild, you´ll never take the talent you like the most, but the one that gives the highest damage output or the best utility for the respective bossfight.
    I can also remember that blizzard wanted the pets to do the same amount of damage so we can pick them for their special skills instead of their dps, but i guess this idea got lost in the twisting nether...
    I think the pets are comparable, Felguard is only generally 'better' because cleaving/AoE is prevalent. As I understand, Felstorm is supposed to be a DPS loss when used against a single target thanks to it's high Damage per Energy cost. If that's not the case now, I expect that it will be by the time it goes live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    There's really two options here.

    A) Chaos Wave does equivalent damage per cost and damage over time as Hand of Gul'dan and serves the same niche in Meta as it does out.
    B) Chaos Wave's damage per cost is skewed some different way and performs a slightly different niche.

    Is A more clear? Yes.

    Perhaps another option would have been:

    C) Chaos Wave stuns or roots instead of snares, but is still a DoT.

    However, giving that to the *most* mobile Warlock spec, something you pointed out to me repeatedly, seemed like an unwise call.
    Going back to this from the Destruction thread.

    I can understand the weak snare on HoG, because it's use is against stuff that wont die to a single strike, and it offers some capacity to kite while in caster form where we are vulnerable; in a sense it's little different to Mind Flay or Slow. That's fine. But does it need to be AoE? Or is the AoE just a trap to make people think the spell will be useful on an encounter only to figure out other classes could do the same job without sacrificing a core nuke? Hunter traps, Earthbind totem etc... That's a pretty big deal in 10 mans when it can mean you might be better off replacing a player or just straight up wasting time and effort while you figure out it's useless. Is it an interesting opportunity when another class can just achieve the same effect without sacrifice and do it better?

    You can create interesting opportunities sure, but not by giving a spell a secondary effect that's at odds with it's primary purpose as is absolutely the case with Chaos Wave - no one is ever going to use that for the snare, because HoG is just straight up better thanks to the Fury generation - that's not an interesting decision, it's a no brainer that only serves to push people into a trap by suckering people who don't make a /cancelaura Meta /cast Hand of Gul'dan macro when they want that snare. Does that seem a fun excercise in interesting play? Is it actually any harder than if those other perks were baseline to Chaos Wave?

    And while I appreciate your desire for absolute consistency, inconsistency can create interesting opportunities. Those kinds of changes are easy to whitewash out later.
    This is pretty irksome. The class hasn't been in great shape for an entire expansion, "later" has already been a long time coming.

  13. #1053
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    I don't think this has been lost per se, it's just really hard to do among all bug fixing and damage reallocating. I think pet balancing is rather far down on the priority list.

    I.E. i still have my fingers crossed that all pets will have interchangeable single-target dps, with felguard better dps for AoE, and Voidwalker better dps when tanking.

    A man can dream.
    I would love this. Pets should be selected based upon their abilities, with the same DPS as each other.

  14. #1054
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    I.E. i still have my fingers crossed that all pets will have interchangeable single-target dps, with felguard better dps for AoE, and Voidwalker better dps when tanking.

    A man can dream.
    Actually, this is pretty much the case after the last pass, Voidwalker is almost equal when not taking dmg, but as soon as he starts tanking his dmg shoots up due to the reactive shield and AoE wise, Felstorm is the uncontested winner. The only fluke seems to be the imp being a little low.

  15. #1055
    Epic! klogaroth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evatar View Post
    Actually, this is pretty much the case after the last pass, Voidwalker is almost equal when not taking dmg, but as soon as he starts tanking his dmg shoots up due to the reactive shield and AoE wise, Felstorm is the uncontested winner. The only fluke seems to be the imp being a little low.
    Not sure how big the difference is, but one would assume that on a patchwerk fight imps would be behind melee pets. The reason being on movement and target switch fights imps are going to spend a great deal less time running between targets. It may not be a fluke, but a deliberate thing to balance pets in practical terms.

  16. #1056
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    Not sure how big the difference is, but one would assume that on a patchwerk fight imps would be behind melee pets. The reason being on movement and target switch fights imps are going to spend a great deal less time running between targets. It may not be a fluke, but a deliberate thing to balance pets in practical terms.
    I think Imp may have been balanced around Glyph of Demon Training, which makes him even better at target switching because he casts quickly and intermittantly from range. Imp can cast so quickly with the glyph he can kill some target before a melee pet could even reach it.
    Last edited by Grubjuice; 2012-08-24 at 09:51 PM.

  17. #1057
    Re: Jessicka
    Warlocks have been dominant in all forms of PvE and PvP content. (Not all instances, Spine sucked, I get that)

    The top Arena teams are Warlocks, the top Raiding guilds bring Warlocks. Is it really fair to say they haven't been in great shape?
    Last edited by Xelnath; 2012-08-24 at 09:48 PM.

  18. #1058
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    Warlocks have been dominant in all forms of PvE and PvP content. (Not all instances, Spine sucked, I get that)

    The top Arena teams are Warlocks, the top Raiding guilds bring Warlocks. Is it really fair to say they haven't been in great shape?
    i think it is fair to say that they have been inaccessable. Their skill caps were too high for the common player.

  19. #1059
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I can understand the weak snare on HoG, because it's use is against stuff that wont die to a single strike, and it offers some capacity to kite while in caster form where we are vulnerable; in a sense it's little different to Mind Flay or Slow. That's fine. But does it need to be AoE? Or is the AoE just a trap to make people think the spell will be useful on an encounter only to figure out other classes could do the same job without sacrificing a core nuke? Hunter traps, Earthbind totem etc... That's a pretty big deal in 10 mans when it can mean you might be better off replacing a player or just straight up wasting time and effort while you figure out it's useless. Is it an interesting opportunity when another class can just achieve the same effect without sacrifice and do it better?
    Yes! it needs to be AOE, HOG>SF its a reason Demo can cleave decently, cut it out and its byebye

    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    I would love this. Pets should be selected based upon their abilities, with the same DPS as each other.
    Its blizzard goal but there not there yet, hope they reach it
    Last edited by Hellfury; 2012-08-24 at 10:05 PM.
    Warlock / IA Operative / Wizard / Engineer

  20. #1060
    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    Warlocks have been dominant in all forms of PvE and PvP content. (Not all instances, Spine sucked, I get that)

    The top Arena teams are Warlocks, the top Raiding guilds bring Warlocks. Is it really fair to say they haven't been in great shape?
    * Pet twisting
    * Snapshotting
    * "Too many buttons"
    * "Higher effort for no relative increase in reward"
    * A single viable PvP spec, only to be used in conjunction with Resto Shaman
    * Lowest played class in proportion to the playerbase

    I'm pretty sure there are an abundance of other reasons the decision was made to make wholesale changes to the class on a level unseen before, and unlikely to be seen again, but those are the core ones I keep seeing come up. Evidently we're in such good shape because over the past 18 months, to use your previous analogy, you figured out just where the gear stick needed shearing off to reach that point. The chasis still needed a lot of work though. To tell us again you're going need yet more time isn't frankly the best news.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-24 at 11:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellfury View Post
    Yes! it needs to be AOE, HOG>SF its a reason Demo can cleave decently, cut it out and its byebye
    Demo AoE is overpowered apparently. We have a Felguard or Wrathguard to cleave too. But mostly, I was talking about the snare effect anyway.

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