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  1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Speaking of straw men, when did I say it was acceptable to stay Fury capped? It isn't. I am saying that it's flawed design to be using a lower DPFC spell because a temporary haste buff results in it having a higher DPET thanks to the more efficient DPFC spell becoming capped.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    However, trinket procs and Heroism certainly are going to factor in - that moment when you drop Meta because your trinket procs is not something I want to see.
    Dropping Meta = wasting fury. Fury capping = wasting fury. Close, but I suppose not quite the same thing.

    Regardless, wasting fury = wasting fury.

    But no, it's not a flawed design. It's called forcing you to make decisions as you play. Either you can make your fury last, or burn it all rapidly for higher burst potential. Meaningful decisions aren't design flaws just because you don't like them.

  2. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvre View Post
    No but simcraft does have numbers for 85 with final tier gear levels and even there with 3000 haste, it's still worth 0.6 mastery. While a big gap, it's hardly gamebreaking or unheard of. For reference, in 4.3 Demo 1 crit = 0.66 mastery.

    So can't we all agree this is making mountains out of molehills?
    Given I've already focused my attention on the effects of temporary buffs, which frequently and easily put you on the GCD cap... Besides, my problem isn't the damage potential, it's the change in rotation brought about by it. I happened to find it pretty lame that AffDrain overtook SBAff, because I was used to, and enjoyed SB Affliction and didn't want to be pressed into this 'new' rotation. And, as much as I prefer SF as Meta's filler, I don't think the change happening at a certain gear level or under certain conditions is good design.

    Quote Originally Posted by darthades View Post
    countless times? just name a couple, and manadrain situation is completely different, completely unrelated.

    The thing is the warlock PvP problem is: "locks dont have the tools to create casting windows" like mages and hunters do, thats the underlying problem and it WONT BE FIXED, it hasnt been fixed since the class inception.

    You want to ruin the most appealing warlock MOP PvP spec just because you "FEEL WEIRD PRESSING INSTANTS WHILE IN META", "come on", is there any other way u wont feel weird?

    I know you spit on PvP players and hate them, it is obvious by the way you post, but making enemies wont get your cause far.
    I don't hate, or spit on PvPers.

    Now if you took the time to look, we have, and are getting more tools to improve our casting windows:
    - Carrion Swarm
    - Unending Resolve
    - Shivarra Knockback
    - Demonic Gateway
    - Burning Rush
    - Kil'Jaeden's Cunning
    - Shadowfury/Mortal Coil/Howl of Terror

    Are all new toys, on top of Fear and Teleport that can be used to open gaps and give time to cast.

    In terms of abilities that were 'all we have', well, Collosus Smash is probably the best example I can think of of an ability that was, on it's own too powerful, but once it was taken away unearthed a whole host of underlying issues with the class that left Warriors in the sidelines of PvP for the rest of the expansion (obviously on top of other nerfs). How would you feel about losing Slash mid way through the expansion after being deemed too powerful by QQing masses, then find those issues, including poor mobility and survivability for caster form are exposed and too late to fix?

  3. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Given I've already focused my attention on the effects of temporary buffs, which frequently and easily put you on the GCD cap... Besides, my problem isn't the damage potential, it's the change in rotation brought about by it. I happened to find it pretty lame that AffDrain overtook SBAff, because I was used to, and enjoyed SB Affliction and didn't want to be pressed into this 'new' rotation. And, as much as I prefer SF as Meta's filler, I don't think the change happening at a certain gear level or under certain conditions is good design.
    And is there any evidence to suggest that under any reasonable gear level you would be forced to change to a SF filler given that it's not viable at 85 in heroic T12?

  4. #544
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvre View Post
    And is there any evidence to suggest that under any reasonable gear level you would be forced to change to a SF filler given that it's not viable at 85 in heroic T12?
    All the evidence suggests you wouldn't use Soul Fire under Meta at all. You'd probably be better off dropping Meta if you're not Fury capped and using the Haste buff to pick up more Fury to use on the more efficient in terms of DPFC, DSlash.

    Torq's the one suggesting switching to Soul Fire.

  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    All the evidence suggests you wouldn't use Soul Fire under Meta at all. You'd probably be better off dropping Meta if you're not Fury capped and using the Haste buff to pick up more Fury to use on the more efficient in terms of DPFC, DSlash.

    Torq's the one suggesting switching to Soul Fire.
    So then under Heroism stay in caster form until you cap Fury. In fact, can anyone think of a reason why you wouldn't wait until you've nearly capped Fury to go into Meta? Heroism Well I guess you would for movement and for burst but those are fairly self-evident. In any case, I don't think Heroism fundamentally changes the rotation.
    Last edited by Sylvre; 2012-06-20 at 01:12 AM.

  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Given I've already focused my attention on the effects of temporary buffs, which frequently and easily put you on the GCD cap... Besides, my problem isn't the damage potential, it's the change in rotation brought about by it. I happened to find it pretty lame that AffDrain overtook SBAff, because I was used to, and enjoyed SB Affliction and didn't want to be pressed into this 'new' rotation. And, as much as I prefer SF as Meta's filler, I don't think the change happening at a certain gear level or under certain conditions is good design.



    I don't hate, or spit on PvPers.

    Now if you took the time to look, we have, and are getting more tools to improve our casting windows:
    - Carrion Swarm
    - Unending Resolve
    - Shivarra Knockback
    - Demonic Gateway
    - Burning Rush
    - Kil'Jaeden's Cunning
    - Shadowfury/Mortal Coil/Howl of Terror

    Are all new toys, on top of Fear and Teleport that can be used to open gaps and give time to cast.

    In terms of abilities that were 'all we have', well, Collosus Smash is probably the best example I can think of of an ability that was, on it's own too powerful, but once it was taken away unearthed a whole host of underlying issues with the class that left Warriors in the sidelines of PvP for the rest of the expansion (obviously on top of other nerfs). How would you feel about losing Slash mid way through the expansion after being deemed too powerful by QQing masses, then find those issues, including poor mobility and survivability for caster form are exposed and too late to fix?
    - Carrion Swarm -> with no 50% snare melee will be on top of you before you finish 1 SB
    - Unending Resolve -> the only good addition, but a long cooldown
    - Shivarra Knockback -> this pet is not used in PvP, EVER
    - Demonic Gateway -> seriously?
    - Burning Rush -> not going to be used EVER in PvP
    - Kil'Jaeden's Cunning -> the 20% snare on top of melee snares kills it
    - Shadowfury/Mortal Coil/Howl of Terror -> we already had 2 of these (3 for destro)

    No, warlocks are not gaining ANYTHING significant in terms of melee kiting, if anything the things we lost would even out with the new stuff

    Colossus smash is different, why? because it allowed 3 shot massive burst damage.

    Meta is NOT going to be overpowered in PvP because it is "constant pressure", not burst damage like shatter, colosus smash, mind blast, etc.

    What the instant cast dlash does is: it gives DEMO a "chance" to do some pressure while moving, nothing compared to lolmages and hunters which already have 80% of their damage while running around.

  7. #547
    - Burning Rush -> not going to be used EVER in PvP
    I dunno about that. You can definitely get some use out of it in BGs and RBGs. For arenas an extra 1 min trinket is probably better.

    The rest of it I mostly agree but in any case, making predictions about PvP balance in a new expansion is pretty sketchy territory.

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by darthades View Post
    - Carrion Swarm -> with no 50% snare melee will be on top of you before you finish 1 SB
    - Unending Resolve -> the only good addition, but a long cooldown
    - Shivarra Knockback -> this pet is not used in PvP, EVER
    - Demonic Gateway -> seriously?
    - Burning Rush -> not going to be used EVER in PvP
    - Kil'Jaeden's Cunning -> the 20% snare on top of melee snares kills it
    - Shadowfury/Mortal Coil/Howl of Terror -> we already had 2 of these (3 for destro)

    No, warlocks are not gaining ANYTHING significant in terms of melee kiting, if anything the things we lost would even out with the new stuff

    Colossus smash is different, why? because it allowed 3 shot massive burst damage.

    Meta is NOT going to be overpowered in PvP because it is "constant pressure", not burst damage like shatter, colosus smash, mind blast, etc.

    What the instant cast dlash does is: it gives DEMO a "chance" to do some pressure while moving, nothing compared to lolmages and hunters which already have 80% of their damage while running around.
    Just saying, if I get a 2s or 3s where I have a pillar, I will use my succy for the knock back and knock druds/rogues/dks/warriors... pretty much anyone away, and it doesn't give them a path to get back to me, making them run around. It's kinda insanely amazing and if you don't use it... well you obviously have a different play style. Also, lets not forget about our voidlords new disarm.
    Soulburn: Unstable Affliction. A boy can dream.

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by darthades View Post
    - Carrion Swarm -> with no 50% snare melee will be on top of you before you finish 1 SB
    Glyph of Shadowflame would like a word.
    - Unending Resolve -> the only good addition, but a long cooldown
    - Shivarra Knockback -> this pet is not used in PvP, EVER
    I've seen a lot of Destruction Warlocks using the Succubus for Seduction, Shivarra's is not only better than that, but her knockback is very much worthwhile; it's too early to say yet, but I suspect you will see them around.
    - Demonic Gateway -> seriously?
    Why so dismissive? I saw, and still see the same dismisiveness with Portal, yet it's an absolute game-changer, Gateway may yet prove itself.
    - Burning Rush -> not going to be used EVER in PvP
    In rateds, it most definitely will be used. A lot. The other talents on that row, Blood Fear and Unbound Will can be used similarly as the gap openers your crave (the latter used in conjuction with Portal for example).
    - Kil'Jaeden's Cunning -> the 20% snare on top of melee snares kills it
    It has an active effect too.
    - Shadowfury/Mortal Coil/Howl of Terror -> we already had 2 of these (3 for destro)
    But neither realistically for Demo due to Howl's cast time. And it's Demo we're talking about here.
    No, warlocks are not gaining ANYTHING significant in terms of melee kiting, if anything the things we lost would even out with the new stuff
    Sorry if I don't see it the same way, but you're dismissing things without thinking about or trying it.

    Colossus smash is different, why? because it allowed 3 shot massive burst damage.

    Meta is NOT going to be overpowered in PvP because it is "constant pressure", not burst damage like shatter, colosus smash, mind blast, etc.

    What the instant cast dlash does is: it gives DEMO a "chance" to do some pressure while moving, nothing compared to lolmages and hunters which already have 80% of their damage while running around.
    Meta is something like 130%+ not 80% of normal damage while moving. If you add in Imps, WoC and Dark Soul, that is very real burst damage.

    I think you're also probably seeing our changes in isolation, without taking into account that other classes have had nerfs to their own control and mobility.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2012-06-20 at 12:58 PM.

  10. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by darthades View Post
    - Carrion Swarm -> with no 50% snare melee will be on top of you before you finish 1 SB
    - Unending Resolve -> the only good addition, but a long cooldown
    - Shivarra Knockback -> this pet is not used in PvP, EVER
    - Demonic Gateway -> seriously?
    - Burning Rush -> not going to be used EVER in PvP
    - Kil'Jaeden's Cunning -> the 20% snare on top of melee snares kills it
    - Shadowfury/Mortal Coil/Howl of Terror -> we already had 2 of these (3 for destro)

    No, warlocks are not gaining ANYTHING significant in terms of melee kiting, if anything the things we lost would even out with the new stuff

    Colossus smash is different, why? because it allowed 3 shot massive burst damage.

    Meta is NOT going to be overpowered in PvP because it is "constant pressure", not burst damage like shatter, colosus smash, mind blast, etc.

    What the instant cast dlash does is: it gives DEMO a "chance" to do some pressure while moving, nothing compared to lolmages and hunters which already have 80% of their damage while running around.
    First of all,
    http://warcraftmovies.com/search.php?keyword=phoenexis
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...oenexis/simple
    Succubus is one of the most kick-ass pets in PvP, and I often play PvP competitively with her (note, competitive is relative as a destro lock). The first link is a duel/bg video which has tons of clips with me playing as Destro succubus/fulhunter spec, and you can see the wonders this pet does. The second link is to my armory just to show you the 2k that I was able to attain as Destro/Disc and Destro/Elem, without imp spec.

    Demonic Gateway is one of the best spells that will be available in PvP, and the only downside is its preparation.
    And meta is going to be OP because of its bursty pressure, not constant. You should be worried about the gap between caster and demon form in PvP, where the former jsut sucks while the latter is godlike.

  11. #551
    Demonic gateway is a 5 second cast, meaning 10 seconds of prep AND it takes 15 seconds to generate a single charge. Don't kid yourself, it'll never be used in arena. Even in RBGs, unless it works on the FC the only thing it'll be useful for is getting from one node to the next faster. It takes too much prep time and charges generate too slow for it that useful in combat.

  12. #552
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    And meta is going to be OP because of its bursty pressure, not constant. You should be worried about the gap between caster and demon form in PvP, where the former jsut sucks while the latter is godlike.
    the huge oscillation in effectiveness between caster and meta for both pvp and pve is either going to be really fun or a real pain in the ass.

    On a seperate note, did you see that the Blues have called for theorycrafters on beta to provide numbers data for the beginning of the dps-balancing? I think we are not likely to see many substantive changes to spell mechanics at this point. Which is a pity, there are still a couple quality of life problems that really should be fixed. (top of my list, Doom and Corruption should both be available in either caster or meta, and benefit from mastery flatly, not recieving the bonus from being refreshed in meta; and some of the 'necessary glyphs' need to be made baseline, or be removed or revised).

    what do you guys think about that news?
    Last edited by Grubjuice; 2012-06-20 at 02:48 PM.

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    the huge oscillation in effectiveness between caster and meta for both pvp and pve is either going to be really fun or a real pain in the ass.

    On a seperate note, did you see that the Blues have called for theorycrafters on beta to provide numbers data for the beginning of the dps-balancing? I think we are not likely to see many substantive changes to spell mechanics at this point. Which is a pity, there are still a couple quality of life problems that really should be fixed. (top of my list, Doom and Corruption should both be available in either caster or meta, and benefit from mastery flatly, not recieving the bonus from being refreshed in meta).

    what do you guys think about that news?
    They said they want a period of stability while they evaluate what they have, I think these two points:
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    * Don’t consider this thread to be evidence that we feel class design for Mists of Pandaria is pretty much done. It also shouldn’t be a sign that X issue you may have been posting about for the last month is going to be ignored, or that we just don’t agree with you.

    * The primary goal is to maintain a relatively stable class system for a healthy period of time in the beta, so the number crunchers among you can really start to get into the nitty-gritty details without worrying that everything will change in the next beta build.
    Are pretty important caveats to the excercise.

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvre View Post
    Demonic gateway is a 5 second cast, meaning 10 seconds of prep AND it takes 15 seconds to generate a single charge. Don't kid yourself, it'll never be used in arena. Even in RBGs, unless it works on the FC the only thing it'll be useful for is getting from one node to the next faster. It takes too much prep time and charges generate too slow for it that useful in combat.
    If you'd inform yourself, you'd know that you only have to cast the first portal, the second one is instant. So no, it will be used in both RBGs and Arena.

  15. #555
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    They said they want a period of stability while they evaluate what they have, I think these two points:
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    * Don’t consider this thread to be evidence that we feel class design for Mists of Pandaria is pretty much done. It also shouldn’t be a sign that X issue you may have been posting about for the last month is going to be ignored, or that we just don’t agree with you.

    * The primary goal is to maintain a relatively stable class system for a healthy period of time in the beta, so the number crunchers among you can really start to get into the nitty-gritty details without worrying that everything will change in the next beta build.
    Are pretty important caveats to the excercise.
    well I have my fingers crossed then

  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    If you'd inform yourself, you'd know that you only have to cast the first portal, the second one is instant. So no, it will be used in both RBGs and Arena.
    The 100yd despawn range combined with charge time and LoS/z-axis requirements makes it's usability seem pretty damn limited in a BG, if it doesn't work on flag carriers anyway.

  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by thrill View Post
    The 100yd despawn range combined with charge time and LoS/z-axis requirements makes it's usability seem pretty damn limited in a BG, if it doesn't work on flag carriers anyway.
    Finally someone providing constructive feedback/valid arguments. Although these issues are very problematic, I'm sure that Blizzard will fix the z-axis limitation just as they did with Heroic Leap.
    As for the 100y range, there's a lot of controversy around it. If anything they could increase the range limit to 200 instead of 100 or just remove it completely, although I don't know what consequences it might cause in RBG.

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    If you'd inform yourself, you'd know that you only have to cast the first portal, the second one is instant. So no, it will be used in both RBGs and Arena.
    Unless you can cast the first port inside the starting area you'd still be lucky to pull off a 5s cast before any competent team opens.

  19. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvre View Post
    Unless you can cast the first port inside the starting area you'd still be lucky to pull off a 5s cast before any competent team opens.
    Well, I'm sure you can manage to cast it after the start in Nagrand/Tol'Vir proving grounds/Ring of Valor. It's also possible to cast it during combat, but hard. I've found myself in situations when I've found myself hardcasting a pet as destro, and it was possible.

  20. #560
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    does Harvest Life generate Demonic Fury while in caster form?

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