The important things that will make or break PvP in Guild Wars 2

[Relidar]

Introduction

My background with online gaming, being mainly MMORPG's, go back to the days of UO, DAoC and EQ. I know this will sound very cliché and very worn out by now, but i genuinly believe that the old gamers have a different view on online gaming today than the current playerbase has.

Now bear with me here as i try to explain why. Before i go into detail, i also want to mention that patience is one of the biggest factors in all of this. Patience today equals time, and people either do not have the time or are just not willing to spend the time on an MMO to let it evolve and grow into what the community wants it to be.

People set expectations and standards before an MMO is even launched. They create an image of the MMO and ask from their designers to make a game that is not created by them (the devs) but by the community. And there is the biggest flaw.

I recently activated both my DAoC and Warhammer accounts, and by playing these games it reminded me all over again what Guild Wars 2 needs to be successful, and what made the mentioned games so hard to forget.

PvP - Zones, objectives and environment

The importance of a BIG PvP zone seems to have been filtered out over the years. It is the number one key to creating a competitive community where team work and pride is the incentive.

Short distances and going from objective A to B within minutes will eliminate the element of surprise and tactical advantages. You can see a byproduct of what happens when this is ignored in other MMO's. People tend to just hang around the major objectives and 'camp' for easy prey.

This not only eliminates the element of surprise, but it also discourages soloing or smaller operations to be carried out.

By having bigger PvP zones with longer running distances and good environments inbetween them, the game does not only become more fun to play, but it feels REAL. The excitement of going out into a battlefield and having absolutely no idea of what will happen next, isn't that really what MMO's are about?

Castle and keep sieges

If there's one thing we can learn from DAoC (and there are many things to learn from DAoC when it comes to sieges!) it's that castle and keep sieges are supposed to take time and require a lot of team work.

Castles and keeps that take hours of effort, resources and tactics will establish a sense of identity for the leaders, guilds and people involved. People will talk about what a great leader Bob was, and what a wonderful job <Knights of the round Table> did with their flank at a resource objective that eventually lead to a victory for the realm!

This also includes the money spent on upgrading your castle, or setting up siege weapons such as ballistas and trebuches.

Sieges that come quick and easy will fade out of memory fast, no matter how big the reward was.

Communication

All of the above will eventually come down to this, communication.
There are a features that will be extremely vital for all of this to work.

• A world wide PvP channel for people to communicate and plan their next tactical moves in.
• An invite/vote only leader channel. The best way this can be done, in my opinion, is by allowing guilds or alliances to assign ONE leader to speak in this channel. This can be an option once a guild and/or alliance reach a certain level.
• Markers for the leader to pin point where exactly he wants each group or warband to defend or attack.
• An active alert system. It needs to be easy to see/know when your realm is under attack and where you need to be to defend.

(Remember, this is MY point of view, so don't freak out or overreact!)

A constructive discussion is welcome!

[Deyadissa]

Real Player versus Player isn't world vs. world, so it doesn't really matter.


You can be old and experience, still won't prevent the new generation ending up being better than you... Ts all part of evolution.




The Player versus Player thAt matterS is structured Which is ranked.

[Ogretron]

Real Player versus Player isn't world vs. world, so it doesn't really matter.


You can be old and experience, still won't prevent the new generation ending up being better than you... Ts all part of evolution.




The Player versus Player that matters is structured Which is ranked.

What? None of that made sense or even relates to the OP.

On Topic - That all sounds good and I think some of it is in place. I also hope taking down keeps takes a while, and even if the first wave gets defeated I hope the defense isn't able to instantly repair the damages.

I'm sure I'll be spending most of my WvW time setting up defenses and making sure resources get to where they need to. I just hope all the time I spend setting up defenses wouldn't go to waste because no one was there to use them hours or days after I have everything set up.

[Deyadissa]

What? None of that made sense or even relates to the OP.

On Topic - That all sounds good and I think some of it is in place. I also hope taking down keeps takes a while, and even if the first wave gets defeated I hope the defense isn't able to instantly repair the damages.

I'm sure I'll be spending most of my WvW time setting up defenses and making sure resources get to where they need to. I just hope all the time I spend setting up defenses wouldn't go to waste because no one was there to use them hours or days after I have everything set up.

He is assuming that world versus world will make or break guild wars Player versus Player, which is not true.


World Player versus Player can morbidly fail and it wouldn't affect guild wars much in terms of actual competitive Player versus Player.

The goal of the future is to improve the past, not repeat itself. If you want a game like daoc, go play It insteaD.

[Deleted]

He is assuming that world versus world will make or break guild wars Player versus Player, which is not true.


World Player versus Player can morbidly fail and it wouldn't affect guild wars much in terms of actual competitive Player versus Player.

Kinda agree. While WvW will definitively play a big part of my gameplay experience it is the structured PvP that will keep me and MASSIVE amount of my friends in GW2.

I'm also bit older gamer (hey, I was running EU champs in Q1) and my MMO adventures reach way past WoW, so I can relate to the OP. He speaks the truth when it comes to "open" world PVP objectives. But again, I doubt WvW will "make or break" Gw2 it's just one of many parts of this game.

[Grable]

By the work Anet has put in certain aspects I'd say WvW is the big part of the game and structured PvP only a small addition for those who like arena-play.

[Deleted]

By the work Anet has put in certain aspects I'd say WvW is the big part of the game and structured PvP only a small addition for those who like arena-play.

It's their official statement that their goal is to make GW2 an e-sport game. That was a very clear statement, accompanied with declaration of supporting any tournaments and starting their own global tourneys.

So yeah, structured is as big part of the game as WvW is and from later tournament coverage perspective even larger money maker for them.

[Spellsword]

Fortunately, a lot of ANet devs were inspired by DAoC and you actually see some similarities especially wvw. The big scale battles are going to bring me back to those DAoC days and they are seriously fucking huge. Have you seen the wvwvw map??

[Deleted]

Fortunately, a lot of ANet devs were inspired by DAoC and you actually see some similarities especially wvw. The big scale battles are going to bring me back to those DAoC days and they are seriously fucking huge. Have you seen the wvwvw map??

Yes, I fully know the scope of WvW. Me and my guildies already know WvW maps by heart as we are going to heavily participate in WvW. But, main focus for us in the structured PVP. WvW is for fun, as it is openly imbalanced - and that's good, it opens up the gameplay. Structured PVP opens up competitive side of the game: no gear advantage, 5v5 and e-sport.

[Razeo]

I completely agree with the OP (DAoC vet myself). And I think one of Anet's main goals which is to build a rich community goes hand in hand with WvW. If there's one thing I missed about DAoC it's the tight-nit community that RvR created both within your realm and the other 2 enemy realms. Though battles between servers will only last 2 weeks, I think it's safe to assume that the huge epic battles in the Mists (especially around Stonemist castle!)will create some good rivlaries between inter-server guilds.

---------- Post added 2012-04-03 at 12:05 AM ----------

Real Player versus Player isn't world vs. world, so it doesn't really matter.


You can be old and experience, still won't prevent the new generation ending up being better than you... Ts all part of evolution.




The Player versus Player thAt matterS is structured Which is ranked.

FYI, WvW is also ranked through servers

[Spellsword]

Yes, I fully know the scope of WvW. Me and my guildies already know WvW maps by heart as we are going to heavily participate in WvW. But, main focus for us in the structured PVP. WvW is for fun, as it is openly imbalanced - and that's good, it opens up the gameplay. Structured PVP opens up competitive side of the game: no gear advantage, 5v5 and e-sport.

Haha, nice. I'm also looking forward to rated 5v5 balanced pvp. I hope they put capes in the game like GW1 so I can get another gold trim *ballin'* xD

[Relidar]

I'm glad to see some constructive replies guys, thank you for that!

Let me clarify a bit, Deyadissa is absolutely right, WvWvW and PvP are not directly connected. But the success for GW2 as an MMO binds all aspects of the game together. If ArenaNet decide to focus purely on the small man teams and PvP matches, they will inevitably harm their own community.

I'm afraid that if GW2 focuses on PvP only, the game will eventually turn into Dota/HoN/LoL, and for those who have seen their communities, i think we can all agree that this is neither fun or something we would want to take part of.

A strong and healthy community is what creates a good MMORPG, it's what keeps us coming back to the game for YEARS. No one wants to play an MMORPG from a lobby with 4-5 other friends.

[Deleted]

Great post Relidar

I actually agree with you to the point that a lousy constructed open world pvp / world vs. world would leave the community without things to do and as a result the game would only rely on pvp arenas. This would be bad because we all know what happened to World of Warcraft once the vanilla open world was thrown aside by the arenas.

I believe that there has to be an incentive that draws players to World vs World as well as arenas. As in World of Warcraft, once the arenas were implemented, the incentive for playing open world was equal to zero and the incentive for the arena was; if you struggled enough you became god. This is an extreme example of and imbalanced PvP to World vs World incentive ratio. If ArenaNet chooses to focus solely on small scale PvP and arenas I believe that the majority (casual/semi-hardcore) will probably leave the game before they even get to the end of it and the young player base will lose their patience and possibility to evolve into great gamers in the Guild Wars 2 community.

I also believe that World vs World is not in any way linked to the pvp arenas but I believe that the entire game would take an tremendous blow to the fan base if the World vs World was unpolished at release.

Since I'm a old DAoC player I would really like to see The mist to be an awesome roaming experience where a structured small man group can make a huge difference. Since this game is mostly based on the players skills and ability to move and dodge out of the way of incoming damage I believe ArenaNet has given the so called "small man operations" a chance to stand against more enemies unlike previous MMOs have. I really hope that they don't spend all their money and effort on PvP arenas but are equally dedicated to present us with and awesome experience in both The mist and the arenas

[Relidar]

Great post Relidar

I actually agree with you to the point that a lousy constructed open world pvp / world vs. world would leave the community without things to do and as a result the game would only rely on pvp arenas. This would be bad because we all know what happened to World of Warcraft once the vanilla open world was thrown aside by the arenas.

I believe that there has to be an incentive that draws players to World vs World as well as arenas. As in World of Warcraft, once the arenas were implemented, the incentive for playing open world was equal to zero and the incentive for the arena was; if you struggled enough you became god. This is an extreme example of and imbalanced PvP to World vs World incentive ratio. If ArenaNet chooses to focus solely on small scale PvP and arenas I believe that the majority (casual/semi-hardcore) will probably leave the game before they even get to the end of it and the young player base will lose their patience and possibility to evolve into great gamers in the Guild Wars 2 community.

I also believe that World vs World is not in any way linked to the pvp arenas but I believe that the entire game would take an tremendous blow to the fan base if the World vs World was unpolished at release.

Since I'm a old DAoC player I would really like to see The mist to be an awesome roaming experience where a structured small man group can make a huge difference. Since this game is mostly based on the players skills and ability to move and dodge out of the way of incoming damage I believe ArenaNet has given the so called "small man operations" a chance to stand against more enemies unlike previous MMOs have. I really hope that they don't spend all their money and effort on PvP arenas but are equally dedicated to present us with and awesome experience in both The mist and the arenas

Thank you, Griffit. And well said!

I don't think it takes an 'old' MMO veteran, or even a DAoC player, to realize that GW2 can't survive purely on PvE, or PvP, or WvWvW. But i think it is taking today's gamers a lot longer to reach this realization than we can afford to. Mainly due to impatience and the way the industry works today.

[Relidar]

I'm not neglecting your posts guys. I actually replied to 3 of you but the MMOC site keeps telling me that the posts are in a queue to be approved by moderators, which apparently can take a while.

[Deleted]

Great post m8

[*]A world wide PvP channel for people to communicate and plan their next tactical moves in.[*]An invite/vote only leader channel. The best way this can be done, in my opinion, is by allowing guilds or alliances to assign ONE leader to speak in this channel. This can be an option once a guild and/or alliance reach a certain level.

They only way , to reduce spam in WvWvW channels + reduce the chance of voting not-worthy leaders > is by , only high ranked guild members , in every guild ( guild masters is a better choice> but they cant login 24/7) , can speak in that channel .
(in the oter hand , create a guild urself >soloplayer >in order to speak in the channel )

[Deleted]

Great post m8



They only way , to reduce spam in WvWvW channels + reduce the chance of voting not-worthy leaders > is by , only high ranked guild members , in every guild ( guild masters is a better choice> but they cant login 24/7) , can speak in that channel .
(in the oter hand , create a guild urself >soloplayer >in order to speak in the channel )

There are commander like ranks which you get if you buy item, which allow you to form squad (grp of players bigger then 5 ppl) and then you have channel where you can only speak as commander plus some other feathures helping you coordinate your squad effort. There is info about it on wiki and was mentioned in some WvWvW videos but without much details about feathures to which commander will have access.
As items are supposed to be quite expensive, I suspect it will take guild effort to get them and then guild will choose some1 to be commander with several ppl havint ability for that later.

I wonder/hope that you can make squad with few comander makign essentialy chain of command to coordinate rly large grp of ppl. Would be so cool imo

[Glytch]

Since the op covers game format and map Layout I feel compelsd to mention ileum from swtor, a prime example of a map that was far to large and far too empty for what it wanted to do

[Hellgaunt]

Since the op covers game format and map Layout I feel compelsd to mention ileum from swtor, a prime example of a map that was far to large and far too empty for what it wanted to do

Illum was also fairly retardedly implemented whereas the Mists in GW2 has very compelling mechanics.

[Deleted]

Thx for the info Kanrei
Yeah its a prety cool idea for goldsink too
But i hope after 2 a.m , we will have a discount , in a 50v60v65

Edit: nvm , no cordination = no proggresion-advantage throught the night
(but in the other hand , i wil feel lonlyness and i cant spam herp derp in the WvWvW !)