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  1. #41
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    Beta has only been going on for a few weeks, we still have months of testing and things WILL (I can 100% guarantee it) change.your voice does matter in these changes, play on the beta with your shaman, post on the forums about what you like and dislike about the changes to the class in MoP. when a new beta patch rolls out and the class changes, post again! you can help change your class for the better by using the forums!

  2. #42
    I didn't mean to say anything that was factually wrong. You know what? The problems I have with Enhancement can't be qualified with a binary "yes" and "no". I get it. So for the sake of everyone else, I'll explain.

    Same rotation as Cataclysm?
    So far, nothing has changed. Stormstrike, Shocks, Lava Lash, Lightning Bolt, Unleash Elements. Apparently you count DPS cooldowns as part of a rotation. I don't.

    Still no resource?
    If you want to get anal, you're right. We've always had a resource. My problem is that in the expansion, our rotation will still be dictated by cooldowns, which is unsatisfactory to me. You think I care that mana costs are higher? What matters is that we scale with haste, get refunded for avoided attacks, and can pool damage. As long as we're based on cooldowns, that won't happen.

    Still using Searing Totem?
    So? Do I really have to explain why I don't like searing totem? The A.I is unreliable, our damage is completely dependent on it, it renders us incredibly immobile in PvP.

    Still no Feral Spirit scaling?
    Feral Spirits appear to be doing the same damage they deal as on live, so there is no indication of an attack power formula change

    Still no gap closer?
    Fine. No *instant* gap closer. Spirit Walk is our Dash. Ghost Wolf is our Travel Form. Where's our Feral Charge? Where's a little fun?

    Still no Execute?
    It's not a major problem, but it's a problem nonetheless. I'm not asking for a copy/paste here. It's just too easy to recover from Enhancement.

    Still no Mortal Strike?
    Yes, this is a problem in PvP. Enhancement's lack of a Mortal Strike-like debuff lowers their value in rated battlegrounds.

    Still hard-casting?
    No indication of any change to Maelstrom Weapon in the beta so far, despite talks of making it "more central to the spec" by the developers

    Still helpless against melee?
    Wrong? Care to elaborate? I was under the impression we were talking about current beta, not conjecture. I see nothing but a net loss in survivability. An extra 40% reduction in damage taken for a mere 6 seconds (at the cost of an absorption shield) isn't going to save me from a feral's stun onslaught.

    Still 40%+ passive damage?
    Huge problem in PvP, considering we have 0 ways to keep people still, and we can't pool our active damage.

  3. #43
    Warchief Protoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manu9 View Post
    Also I have a question about SF, since it stacks before LL comes off CD, would it be an issue if hypothetically the mechanic was removed the damage implemented in LL, it would make it easier for PvP, and target switching.

    The only time it would be an increase to the current model dps-wise is:
    1- The very first LL in a fight.
    2- Target switching.

    Which is not really game breaking.
    So you mean just bake the 100% bonus damage from SF into LL and get rid of SF? It is true that atleast in PVE we almost always have the full damage every time, so the whole stack mechanic doesn't serve much purpose there. It's mainly there for PVP so you can't always have max damage right away. I remember GC explaining this one time, he said something along the lines of "we want you to slowly build it up to unleash it's full potential". He wanted it to work like combo points or holy power with their finishers, but we can't really wait for 5 stacks to use LL since we don't have other filler spells on low cds to sustain damage.

    There is also a BIG difference between CP and HP vs SF which I don't think Blizzard realizes......
    -Who: CP/HP stack from the player, while SF stacks from our totem and not us
    -How: CP/HP stack with active abilities, while SF stacks from passive totem pulses

    This is what leads to alot of frustration, our "resource generator" is out of our control. I don't think they would just get rid of SF and add the damage to LL since they want it to be something to build towards. I really like the idea of Flame Shock stacking it but technically it still stacks off a passive dot like searing totem, so I came up with this idea: (I was bored and decided to get creative lol)

    "Shock Blast"

    Passive
    -When you cast a shock, you gain (or apply) a stack of Shock Blast. Once you get 3 stacks of this buff (or debuff), your next LL will consume the stacks to do 100% more damage.
    OR
    -Your LL will consume Shock Blast to do extra damage, bonus damage depends on how many stacks are present.
    1- 25%
    2- 50%
    3- 100%


    I have always thought that Enhance should be more shock oriented for LL then rely on the totem since they feel more interactive, and this does that perfectly. Basically it works similar to HP or CP (depending on if it should be a buff or debuff). The first version basically makes you wait till 3 stacks to consume it at all, and you get 100% damage. Any LL before 3 stacks would just be normal damage. The second version lets you consume the stack at any time, but you get alot more damage if you wait for 3 stacks. The talent could also reduce the cd of your shocks by 1 sec, so you would get 3 stacks in 10 sec (0>5>10).

    This would definitely make it alot more effective in PVP where we spam our shocks even more then our melee abilities. But not sure how it might effect PVE, cause it would probably make shocks a higher priority and change up our rotation. Don't know but I'd be interested to see how it plays out. And if its too confusing, can always roll it back to just Flame Shock ticks.....it might not be as active but atleast it would give us more control then Searing totem.

  4. #44
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newber View Post
    I didn't mean to say anything that was factually wrong. You know what? The problems I have with Enhancement can't be qualified with a binary "yes" and "no". I get it. So for the sake of everyone else, I'll explain.

    Same rotation as Cataclysm?
    So far, nothing has changed. Stormstrike, Shocks, Lava Lash, Lightning Bolt, Unleash Elements. Apparently you count DPS cooldowns as part of a rotation. I don't.


    Cooldowns are part of every priority queue. Excluding them is misleading. Also, most specs are using basically the same abilities as always in MoP, because those abilities define the spec.

    Still no resource?
    If you want to get anal, you're right. We've always had a resource. My problem is that in the expansion, our rotation will still be dictated by cooldowns, which is unsatisfactory to me. You think I care that mana costs are higher? What matters is that we scale with haste, get refunded for avoided attacks, and can pool damage. As long as we're based on cooldowns, that won't happen.

    If mana costs are higher, and Primal Wisdom can't regen mana fast enough, then the limiting factor becomes mana, not cooldowns. And increasing haste increases autoattack speed which increases mana gained through Primal Wisdom.

    So your argument ignores reality, here, and also that the addition of a resource system is inherently one that restricts performance, not boosts one, because scarcity of that resource is what makes it a tool.

    Still no Feral Spirit scaling?
    Feral Spirits appear to be doing the same damage they deal as on live, so there is no indication of an attack power formula change


    Scaling the same at 85 does not mean they scale the same at 90. Nor is it launch-ready, either.

    Still no gap closer?
    Fine. No *instant* gap closer. Spirit Walk is our Dash. Ghost Wolf is our Travel Form. Where's our Feral Charge? Where's a little fun?


    Enhancement has little need for one. The classes which have one have little ranged capability for the most part. Enhancement does, as well as a host of roots and slows and speed boosts. An instant gap closer is entirely unnecessary.

    Still no Execute?
    It's not a major problem, but it's a problem nonetheless. I'm not asking for a copy/paste here. It's just too easy to recover from Enhancement.

    Still no Mortal Strike?
    Yes, this is a problem in PvP. Enhancement's lack of a Mortal Strike-like debuff lowers their value in rated battlegrounds.


    These aren't standard assumptions, they're class features. We have other benefits. Arguing that Enhancement can't do literally everything ergo it's flawed is a ridiculous argument.

    Still helpless against melee?
    Wrong? Care to elaborate? I was under the impression we were talking about current beta, not conjecture. I see nothing but a net loss in survivability. An extra 40% reduction in damage taken for a mere 6 seconds (at the cost of an absorption shield) isn't going to save me from a feral's stun onslaught.


    This is mind-bogglingly wrongheaded, and it makes me believe you haven't looked at the beta changes very thoroughly.

    Astral Shift is not the only, or even the most powerful, defensive tool we're getting in MoP.

    Still 40%+ passive damage?
    Huge problem in PvP, considering we have 0 ways to keep people still, and we can't pool our active damage.
    This is also so outright untrue that you either have not looked at the full beta changes, or you are lying. Frozen Power, EBT both root, Frozen Power powerfully enough that DR will be the limiting factor, and the multiple DPS CDs allow for exactly the kind of damage pooling you're complaining Enhancement lacks.

    I'll grant you that maybe you just didn't read the beta changes and took a few leaked bits of info out of context, but read up on them before continuing this. This is the last warning on the subject; misinformation is not allowed on these forums.

  5. #45
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    People are seriously complaining about a lack of a gap closer as an Enhancement Shaman? You have ranged spells, a dash that breaks roots, and Ghost Wolf. In PvP Enhancement are notorious for smothering casters, and this is in the current expansion. Enhancement's weakness has always been the inability to go toe-to-toe with a "pure" melee class. The spec has never had a problem catching and destroying ranged opponents.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    People are seriously complaining about a lack of a gap closer as an Enhancement Shaman? You have ranged spells, a dash that breaks roots, and Ghost Wolf. In PvP Enhancement are notorious for smothering casters, and this is in the current expansion. Enhancement's weakness has always been the inability to go toe-to-toe with a "pure" melee class. The spec has never had a problem catching and destroying ranged opponents.
    And really, having issues against melee is fine. WoW PvP isn't meant to be balanced on a 1:1 measure. It's based on a rock/paper/scissors/lizard/spock kind of layout, where you'll have some classes you're strong against, and others you're weak against. Enhancement (in fact, Shaman in general) have a LOT of anti-caster tools. Enhancement has issues going "toe-to-toe" with pure melee because Enhancement isn't pure melee. I want to call it a "hybrid", but that would be confusing, so I'm going to use "chimera" instead; there's obviously a lot of melee rolled into the class, but it's got some healing and caster mixed in there too. Which is fine; one of the greatest strengths of the class design is that it pulls this off successfully. It's the only real "melee-caster" in the game; Death Knights and Ret Paladins come the closest otherwise, and even there it's mostly 1-2 spells that really qualify.

    If Enhancement's able to zerg down casters, but has to try and semi-kite pure melee, that's just fine. If it could zerg casters AND out-melee pure melee AND also kite pure melee if it chose to (which it can currently, and often should, do), it would be way too strong.

  7. #47
    Warchief Protoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newber View Post
    I didn't mean to say anything that was factually wrong. You know what? The problems I have with Enhancement can't be qualified with a binary "yes" and "no". I get it. So for the sake of everyone else, I'll explain.
    I will just echo what others have said in saying that I don't think you have fully absorbed all the new changes or the impact they will have on us in the game. You do have a few relevant points, but some are wrong or not really important...



    Relevant:
    -MW5. Nothing YET has been done to make this more central, or higher priority other then 200% crit.

    -Feral Spirits. Nothing done YET, but it is still beta and they went thru a major change. If all goes well, they will scale dynamically with AP/crit/haste from us, and smarter AI that assists us.

    -Haste/Resource. It's true they haven't done much to make this stat more effective, especially during cd's like BLust, other then linking it w/ another cd like Ascendence or Stormlash. Resource sort of ties into this, but being based off Mana and CD's is perfectly fine for most part. An additional resource on top of Mana could be interesting, like Holy Power, or my idea with "Shock Blast", but we function fine without it and MW5 already gives us some flexibility. Haste having more influence would be good though.....stuff like stronger flame shock or searing totem damage and scaling w/ haste, maybe a Killing Machine style proc off melee attacks, or Haste reducing the cd of SS or Shocks. You do have a point about refunding cd's when your attack gets missed/dodged/parried ...especially LL.

    -Searing Totem. Same with wolves, this hopefully will go thru an update for AI and scaling. I dislike the Searing Flames mechanic as well, I think it should stack thru Flame shock, but I highly doubt Blizz will ever change their minds on this one unfortunately. Better AI will atleast make it easier and less annoying to use.

    -Execute. I think your point about MS is useless, not every class should bring this debuff and in group BG's you tend to focus on one target at a time so you usually have the debuff applied anyways by some other class. But an Execute would be nice, we don't have much controlled burst or ways to "pool resources" to link a few attacks together. Extra CD's will help, but some way to finish off an opponent at <30% HP would be really great. Something like "When target is below 30% HP, your next ES will do 200% more damage and auto crit, can only happen once every 30 sec).....our version of "hammer of wrath" basically.


    Not Relevant:

    -Rotation/hardcasting. Our rotation is perfect, plus new cd's and single drop totems will make it congested as is. We don't need anything new. Hardcasting will most likely go away since we won't have many spare gcds left, and hopefully MW5 will give incentive to use only at 5 stacks.

    -Gap closer/MS. We got plenty of ways to close gap, we don't need instant cause we have good ranged damage, ranged snare/root, interrupt, and dispels. Classes with instant gap closer lack those tools. MS is not something we need either, in group BG's the focus target is likely to have debuff applied regardless by some other class. We bring purge and wind shear which are just as good as MS.

    -Defenses. We have alot more defenses, Bulwark totem specifically is on a 1min cd and good vs melee, plus SR at 1min, and stronger healing with wolves and MW5 via glyphs, as well as superior kiting abilities. We are generally strong vs casters and weak vs melee, but we do have more defenses against them now, ES reducing physical damage is another example.

    -Passive damage. We still do majority of our damage as Active damage abilities. If you nerf passive damage, you nerf Haste's effect even more. Every melee class has passive damage which is why you gotta try to stay on the target, that's the main challenge for us in PVP. We have tons of snares/roots plus talented FB will give you a sprint plus perma snare to easily stay on the target. You underestimate how much passive damage other melee have, for example a rogue/feral can only apply their snares with passive damage and need to keep them in range for combo points. A Warrior also needs to be in range to snare and build rage. DK's spend a rune to snare meaning less dps once they reach target, and Killing machine procs from auto attacks.

  8. #48
    If mana costs are higher, and Primal Wisdom can't regen mana fast enough, then the limiting factor becomes mana, not cooldowns. And increasing haste increases autoattack speed which increases mana gained through Primal Wisdom.

    So your argument ignores reality, here, and also that the addition of a resource system is inherently one that restricts performance, not boosts one, because scarcity of that resource is what makes it a tool.
    Cooldowns already serve as a "limiting factor". If the developers don't lower cooldowns, then they've done nothing but restrict Enhancement even more, which is the last thing we need. Because our abilities will *still* be based on cooldowns, we can't reap the benefits of a true resource system.

    -Our ability frequency won't scale with haste because we will always have to wait 8 seconds between Stormstrikes
    -We won't be able to pool damage, because any time spent with an ability on cooldown will equate to lost damage
    -Our avoided attacks will still trigger cooldowns, which is a huge problem in PvP

    Yes, it's a "resource", but it's a redundant resource, like Rage. The only difference is that Warriors are "compensated" for Rage costs with reduced cooldowns (4.5 Sec Mortal Strike compared to 8 sec Stormstrike).

    I just attribute beta Shaman's mana issues to number balancing at this point.

  9. #49
    Warchief Protoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newber View Post
    Cooldowns already serve as a "limiting factor". If the developers don't lower cooldowns, then they've done nothing but restrict Enhancement even more, which is the last thing we need. Because our abilities will *still* be based on cooldowns, we can't reap the benefits of a true resource system.

    -Our ability frequency won't scale with haste because we will always have to wait 8 seconds between Stormstrikes
    -We won't be able to pool damage, because any time spent with an ability on cooldown will equate to lost damage
    -Our avoided attacks will still trigger cooldowns, which is a huge problem in PvP

    Yes, it's a "resource", but it's a redundant resource, like Rage. The only difference is that Warriors are "compensated" for Rage costs with reduced cooldowns (4.5 Sec Mortal Strike compared to 8 sec Stormstrike).

    I just attribute beta Shaman's mana issues to number balancing at this point.
    I do agree that our mana regen in MoP is just a balance issue right now. Reduced mana regen does not achieve anything but make us even more restricted and artificially try to increase the value on haste. They said mana should not be an issue for us, so I expect them to buff the regen as well as lower the costs of alot of our spells/abilities.....especially stuff like SS or rez.

    I also do agree we should get a cd reset for avoided attacks in PVP, especially stuff like LL. With hit/expertise capped technically this shouldn't happen, but not sure if expertise cap will be as easy to achieve in PVP as hit usually is.

    Ability frequency increasing with alot of haste......this will have to be done passive, by stuff like more auto attack or stuff from auto attack like WF/FT, Static shock via Unleash Fury talent w/ WF, flame shock/searing flames/searing totem dots scaling. Could also add stuff like Killing Machine proc off melee attacks, having SS and Shock cd slightly reduced by haste, or even reset the cd of certain attacks like Lava Surge works for Ele.

  10. #50
    Still no resource?
    We have 2 ressources ... the third one does not matter. We have always been a cooldown based class and these cooldowns are our first resource ... if a rogue misses a sinister strike he will cast another one, for us the damage is lost since the cooldown has been used.
    The second ressource is MSW, it is what enables us to do some fun stuff ... it is like rogue combopoints, just that it adds up differently ...

    Searing Totem is annoying as it is already was actually lookinf forward to a change with that.

    Edit: oops there is already a post that states our CDs, replied before reaching that post
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Protoman View Post
    I will just echo what others have said in saying that I don't think you have fully absorbed all the new changes or the impact they will have on us in the game. You do have a few relevant points, but some are wrong or not really important...



    Relevant:
    -MW5. Nothing YET has been done to make this more central, or higher priority other then 200% crit.

    -Feral Spirits. Nothing done YET, but it is still beta and they went thru a major change. If all goes well, they will scale dynamically with AP/crit/haste from us, and smarter AI that assists us.

    -Haste/Resource. It's true they haven't done much to make this stat more effective, especially during cd's like BLust, other then linking it w/ another cd like Ascendence or Stormlash. Resource sort of ties into this, but being based off Mana and CD's is perfectly fine for most part. An additional resource on top of Mana could be interesting, like Holy Power, or my idea with "Shock Blast", but we function fine without it and MW5 already gives us some flexibility. Haste having more influence would be good though.....stuff like stronger flame shock or searing totem damage and scaling w/ haste, maybe a Killing Machine style proc off melee attacks, or Haste reducing the cd of SS or Shocks. You do have a point about refunding cd's when your attack gets missed/dodged/parried ...especially LL.

    -Searing Totem. Same with wolves, this hopefully will go thru an update for AI and scaling. I dislike the Searing Flames mechanic as well, I think it should stack thru Flame shock, but I highly doubt Blizz will ever change their minds on this one unfortunately. Better AI will atleast make it easier and less annoying to use.

    -Execute. I think your point about MS is useless, not every class should bring this debuff and in group BG's you tend to focus on one target at a time so you usually have the debuff applied anyways by some other class. But an Execute would be nice, we don't have much controlled burst or ways to "pool resources" to link a few attacks together. Extra CD's will help, but some way to finish off an opponent at <30% HP would be really great. Something like "When target is below 30% HP, your next ES will do 200% more damage and auto crit, can only happen once every 30 sec).....our version of "hammer of wrath" basically.


    Not Relevant:

    -Rotation/hardcasting. Our rotation is perfect, plus new cd's and single drop totems will make it congested as is. We don't need anything new. Hardcasting will most likely go away since we won't have many spare gcds left, and hopefully MW5 will give incentive to use only at 5 stacks.

    -Gap closer/MS. We got plenty of ways to close gap, we don't need instant cause we have good ranged damage, ranged snare/root, interrupt, and dispels. Classes with instant gap closer lack those tools. MS is not something we need either, in group BG's the focus target is likely to have debuff applied regardless by some other class. We bring purge and wind shear which are just as good as MS.

    -Defenses. We have alot more defenses, Bulwark totem specifically is on a 1min cd and good vs melee, plus SR at 1min, and stronger healing with wolves and MW5 via glyphs, as well as superior kiting abilities. We are generally strong vs casters and weak vs melee, but we do have more defenses against them now, ES reducing physical damage is another example.

    -Passive damage. We still do majority of our damage as Active damage abilities. If you nerf passive damage, you nerf Haste's effect even more. Every melee class has passive damage which is why you gotta try to stay on the target, that's the main challenge for us in PVP. We have tons of snares/roots plus talented FB will give you a sprint plus perma snare to easily stay on the target. You underestimate how much passive damage other melee have, for example a rogue/feral can only apply their snares with passive damage and need to keep them in range for combo points. A Warrior also needs to be in range to snare and build rage. DK's spend a rune to snare meaning less dps once they reach target, and Killing machine procs from auto attacks.
    That's what scares me, the YET, I know we are very very early beta, but we waited a long time for some stuff, that I'm scared it will happen again, I just hope they are keeping in mind.

  12. #52
    Until searing totem / searing flames gets a major overhaul, I don't intend on playing my shaman. I also dislike a portion of our mobility being tied to wolves.

    I'd be fine with shaman if those two things were modified.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post

    If mana costs are higher, and Primal Wisdom can't regen mana fast enough, then the limiting factor becomes mana, not cooldowns. And increasing haste increases autoattack speed which increases mana gained through Primal Wisdom.
    That's not a good thing, if mana becomes the limiting factor in addition to the cooldowns. If you look at the other melee who are limited by a resource - be it Runic Power, Runes, Rage, or Energy - there are buttons they can hit whenever they have the required amount of that resource.

    Enhancement doesn't have any buttons like that. If mana becomes the limiting factor and the cooldowns on our abilities remain, then we run the risk of scenarios where we have mana but can't actually do anything with it.

    Related to that, we run the risk of almost never wanting to use certain abilities (Earth Shock comes to mind) because we need to pool mana to make sure Lava Lash and Stormstrike and Lightning Bolts are going off.


    However, I think it's a little too early to make suppositions on the state of mana. Nearly everybody is having mana problems at the moment in beta.

  14. #54
    Warchief Protoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manu9 View Post
    That's what scares me, the YET, I know we are very very early beta, but we waited a long time for some stuff, that I'm scared it will happen again, I just hope they are keeping in mind.
    Yea, there are alot of things we are keeping a close eye on, specifically the AI and scaling improvements for Feral Spirits and Searing totem, as well as MW5 being top priority and haste being more integrated. Mana regen/costs is also something to worry about, but that's the one most likely to be fixed. We still have alot of Beta ahead of us, but I wish they would give us an idea of what to expect for each class so we people don't keep bitching about them. I want to be optimistic, but have been disappointed with how they handle these things in the past so not trying to put my hopes up too high.
    Until searing totem / searing flames gets a major overhaul, I don't intend on playing my shaman. I also dislike a portion of our mobility being tied to wolves.
    Spirit Walk is a 2min cd and not tied to wolves anymore, you can use it whenever. You also have a ranged root with Frost shock at all times, and ghost wolf for mobility without being snared. If you get the Unleash Fury talent, your FB unleash effect will also give a short sprint along with it's ranged snare. Mobility won't be a problem.

    Searing totem/SF is annoying I agree. I personally would like to see it be based off Flame shock, but I wouldn't mind if it was just removed completely and something new and different put in its place. It's not a very compelling talent at all. It's essentially a guarantee in PVE to get the 100% bonus damage, and only limits its damage in PVP sometimes but not something we really try to wait till 5 stacks for either. We don't have short cd filler abilities like a rogue might w/ sinister strike, so we gotta use our cd's soon as we can to keep up with our damage.

    I would much rather see a new talent that puts more emphasis on Shocks, or enhances MW5. And just buff the regular damage of LL, maybe not 100% but something like 50%.

    For example:
    MW5: Your LB or CL will put a dot on the target for 6 sec. When you consume a full 5 stack of MW, you lower the cd of Feral Spirits by 2 sec, and Ascendance by 3 sec.

    Super Shocks:
    ES- Does more damage to targets always, also it will auto crit for double damage when target is <30% HP (20sec icd)
    FLS- Does more periodic damage and gets bonus scaling from haste always, also can proc to reset your LL cd (30sec icd)
    FRS- Will crit and trap the target in ice for 3 sec (stun) if used >15yds from you (1min icd)


    It's alot of RNG I know, but it would give the shocks a little more flavor and more base damage, as well as make MW5 add to sustained DPS and w/ cd reduction make it top priority again.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by discoepfeand View Post
    Until searing totem / searing flames gets a major overhaul, I don't intend on playing my shaman. I also dislike a portion of our mobility being tied to wolves.

    I'd be fine with shaman if those two things were modified.
    Welcome to BETA, Spirit Walk is now on its own CD

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-06 at 06:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Protoman View Post
    I would much rather see a new talent that puts more emphasis on Shocks, or enhances MW5. And just buff the regular damage of LL, maybe not 100% but something like 50%.
    Don't forget that we scale with mastery and speccrits are 100% now instead of +50% ... LB can crit for a good 50k.
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  16. #56
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orrion View Post
    That's not a good thing, if mana becomes the limiting factor in addition to the cooldowns. If you look at the other melee who are limited by a resource - be it Runic Power, Runes, Rage, or Energy - there are buttons they can hit whenever they have the required amount of that resource.
    The point I was making was simply that resource systems are inherently limiting factors; they do not and cannot improve performance.

    Buffs on top of that resource change could improve performance by making up for lesser ability use, but those buffs are not themselves connected to the resource system change.

    And changing from "limited by cooldowns" to "limited by mana" or "limited by 'Totemic Voodoo Juice'" doesn't change anything in the grand scale. The class will still be balanced around the limiting factors. It might mean Haste scales better, but at the cost of worse scaling elsewhere, to make up for that gain. Class balance is about balance, not about ramping buttons to 11 because you want your chosen spec to be awesome.


    I'm not arguing that Mana should be a more restrictive thing for Enhancement, I'm making the point that adding a new resource system doesn't 'fix' anything, aside from maybe boosting Haste scaling depending on how it works, and any such boost would have to be counterbalanced by commensurate nerfs to keep the spec in line.

  17. #57
    Warchief Protoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myrddinde View Post
    Don't forget that we scale with mastery and speccrits are 100% now instead of +50% ... LB can crit for a good 50k.
    That's true but it won't make MW5 any higher in priority. It might do more damage, but def not more then LL or SS. Giving it a way to reduce our cd's would ensure that we want to use it asap.

    And shocks will also benefit true, but still not gonna change much for them either. They will still be boring and low priority. Enhance uses shocks ALOT, more then the other specs.....but at same time we have ZERO talents to buff them or specialize them. Frozen Power is a good example of a way to specialize Frost shock's control ability by allowing it to root. I want to see something like that for Earth and Flame shock as well, because we can basically still just use Frost shock only in PVP and be just fine.

    Earth shock- This is supposed to be bursty and most instant damage, which is why I keep suggesting an execute style ability for it. In PVP we would want to prioritize this at low health.

    Flame shock- This is known for it's dot, which is why you try to apply early and maintain it. That's why I keep trying to get some stronger scaling for the dot as well as more haste benefit, and maybe even some type of proc similar to Lava Surge for Ele, but with LL instead of LvB. In PVP this might encourage us to actually try and keep it up on a target, for good sustained DPS like in PVE, as well as some burst potential via proc.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Protoman View Post
    That's true but it won't make MW5 any higher in priority. It might do more damage, but def not more then LL or SS. Giving it a way to reduce our cd's would ensure that we want to use it asap.

    And shocks will also benefit true, but still not gonna change much for them either. They will still be boring and low priority. Enhance uses shocks ALOT, more then the other specs.....but at same time we have ZERO talents to buff them or specialize them. Frozen Power is a good example of a way to specialize Frost shock's control ability by allowing it to root. I want to see something like that for Earth and Flame shock as well, because we can basically still just use Frost shock only in PVP and be just fine.

    Earth shock- This is supposed to be bursty and most instant damage, which is why I keep suggesting an execute style ability for it. In PVP we would want to prioritize this at low health.

    Flame shock- This is known for it's dot, which is why you try to apply early and maintain it. That's why I keep trying to get some stronger scaling for the dot as well as more haste benefit, and maybe even some type of proc similar to Lava Surge for Ele, but with LL instead of LvB. In PVP this might encourage us to actually try and keep it up on a target, for good sustained DPS like in PVE, as well as some burst potential via proc.
    I like the shocks idea it gives them depth, and a very welcome and refreshing change.

  19. #59
    The point I was making was simply that resource systems are inherently limiting factors; they do not and cannot improve performance.
    The bolded statement would only be true if you were talking about some hypothetical rotation that consisted of abilities with no cooldown, resource cost, or cast time. Every rotation has a resource in that sense. The fact is, cooldowns are the most limiting resource there is. By that token, replacing a completely cooldown-based rotation with a proper resource system most certainly can increase performance.

    You and I must have a different definition for "resource". I have always used "resource" in a sense that excluded cooldowns. Resources allow you to pick and choose (usually following a rotation) which abilities to use in an allotted amount of time, rather than pigeonholing you into using them in a specific order.

    If you want to be technical, cooldowns ARE our rotational resource. Our performance could be improved by ditching this resource model, and implementing a different one. Now, am mostly talking about PvP here, because I will admit that our PvE damage is fine. My problems with Enhancement are almost 100% PvP related..

    Energy and Runes have many advantages over pure cooldowns.

    Proper resources are not consumed when abilities are avoided (dodged/parried/blocked/missed).
    In PvE and PvP, this lessens the value of stats like expertise and hit, allowing for more damage oriented stats.
    In PvP, this prevents active damage from being lost. If Mutilate is dodged, no damage is lost, because the Rogue can just try again 1 second later. Damage is only lost if the Rogue's Energy becomes capped. The same is true for Runic Power, Combo Points, Runes, Chi, etc.
    These factors put Shamans at a distinct disadvantage in PvP.

    Proper resources scale with haste.
    In PvE, this means that resource-based classes benefit much more during Bloodlust, and haste in general.
    It increases the speed at which the class plays, and makes the class more *fun* to play. Haste only increases Enhancement's passive damage.

    Proper resources can be pooled.
    As long as a Rogue does not cap energy, he won't lose any active damage. When your rotation is based completely around cooldowns, any time spent with an ability off cooldown is lost damage.

    I'm a big proponent of a resource overhaul for Enhancement because of these benefits, but another advantage of having a resource has recently reared its head. Enhancement has way too many cooldowns to track. With the addition of Stormlash Totem, Ascendence, extra defensives, talents, and totems, Enhancement is going to have to keep tabs on over 20 different cooldowns.

    Why do people say Enhancement's rotation is "perfect"?
    We use Shocks, which offer no synergy with the rest of the rotation; We use shocks obligatorily, because we have nothing else to push.
    The only dynamic feature of the rotation is the frequency of Maelstrom Weapon, but all the fun is sucked out of it because we hard-cast.
    A huge chunk of our damage is dependent on Searing Totem, which really limits our sense of agency.
    We're a melee spec that only uses *two* melee attacks actively.
    Our AoE (although powerful) has many flaws. It takes 3 global cooldowns to start. It's impossible to use against low-level enemies. It's tied to our most damaging ability. It breaks CC. It based on Fire Nova, which is a hand-me-down from another spec.
    Not to mention we have been using the same rotation for all of Cataclysm, with no apparent changes as of yet.
    Last edited by Newber; 2012-04-06 at 09:17 PM.

  20. #60
    I'm considering re-rolling searing totem feels so bad with the new totem system, it really shows how bad the totem is IMO, the feeling of dropping 3 totems alongside Searing felt beneficial as we was buffing ourselves and the group but running around dropping the 1 totem just feels clunky to me, maybe it just needs some time to adjust but I dont like it atm.

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