Pure Melee Class?

[Novmiech]

Hi all – I have a concern over GW2’s current weapon system allowing all classes to be ranged based fighters.

Namely it is that I *love* being a melee dps and have played WoW great success in both PvE and PvP as a melee. I currently am planning to run as a Warrior with either: 2H/DW or 2H/Sword-N-Board for both PvE and PvP. The idea of sitting at range to dps completely bores me, and I don’t want to be forced into using a ranged weapon. Without having a dedicated healer role a single focused melee seems like a liability in most cases.

When I watch the PvE videos I see lots and lots of constant strong AoE that even ranged classes are falling to (Given some of these players seem bad but just there same there is *A LOT* of it). It seems as though the encounters are being designed with you also having a ranged weapon in mind – and why wouldn't it be? Every warrior video I see shows the warrior swapping to his ranged weapon quite often or using it almost exclusively.

When I watch the PvP videos I usually see either; two groups of 20 or so players standing at range of each other and just chucking spells back and forth without making an effort to advance, or a group defending a keep wall chucking spells down at the attackers who are trying to chuck spells back up at the rampart. Never did I see a group of melee come charge down and create havoc in the ranks and from what I saw - given that everyone has the option to fight at range only the stubborn ones like myself are going to do something that foolish and ultimately being going in alone.

The question is: will Warriors, Guardians and Thieves be able to play as a pure melee class or will they be forced into keeping at least one weapon set dedicated to ranged just because the game will be designed and balanced as such?

[Deleted]

You have to remember that this game is also about dodging incoming damage. I don't think there is any "pure" melee class, and yes you're supposed to avoid damage over doing damage.

I can't find the video, but there is a dragon that summons a wall of bones that traps melee inside and deal them damage with his breathe. You can go ranged for a little while, then continue up when the danger is over.

You can play however you like. It's not even comparable with WoW, where your ranged hits like a noodle compared to your melee attacks. Which means if you really want to go melee, and neglecting incoming damage, then you can. I personally it's also a matter of skill. If you know what a boss is doing, you can avoid their attacks. Even better in PVP where people tend to run when they're on low HP. Instead of ( as in WoW ) hitting like a wet noodle, you can actually kill your opponent with a bow.

If you want to zerg into a crowd in WvWvW where they attack your keep, go ahead. You won't survive it and you will be more usefull if you can attack from ranged from atop a wall.

On top of that, the case that warriors can attack very well with a bow is actually why I'm gonna play it

[Deyadissa]

You can be a pure healer in this game if you wanted. But in the end you'll just end up gimping yourself.


I think the same applies to all, including straight melee and range.

[Nitsuj]

Remember in vanilla WoW in Molten Core on Shazzra as melee? I know I do... the healers couldn't heal all the melee through the AoE then so we just stood back in a circle /dancing.... or shooting him for 300 dmg every 3 secs. So now in cases of intense AoE, you're telling me I can back out of the fray and be helpful? YES PLEASE!!!


Also, I remember my rogue in rift having ranger as a 0 point tree just for the ranged combo builder and finisher. KITE ME WILL YOU?!? Yeah this is all good changes my friend. You also dont have to use a bow, it's completely up to you.

[Thrage]

I love melee classes too. I played Rogues, Warriors and Paladins in World of Warcraft. However, I would also commonly find myself in a situation where I'd want to break my keyboard because I can't use ranged attacks. Mage up on a platform I can't get to hurling fireballs in a non-flyable area, like the cannon platforms in Wintergrasp? Nothin' I can do about that as a warrior. Feel like riding shotgun on a demolisher in Strand of the Ancients and shoot people? Too bad, either drive or stay on foot and protect.

It was always so frustrating to see a hunter driving the demos or running around like an idiot outside of one with open passenger slots when he could be 100% protected from damage and able to just wail on people with impunity if he were a passenger. And I can't fill that role myself, and get that advantage, because I'm a warrior.

Let's not get upset about being given options - options are a good thing! So is adaptability, of course. I'm quite alright with not being able to hard-limit myself to melee only.

Remember in vanilla WoW in Molten Core on Shazzra as melee? I know I do... the healers couldn't heal all the melee through the AoE then so we just stood back in a circle /dancing.... or shooting him for 300 dmg every 3 secs. So now in cases of intense AoE, you're telling me I can back out of the fray and be helpful? YES PLEASE!!!

Ah, I remember that. I used it as an opportunity to level up my Crossbow/Bow/Thrown/Whatever skills.

[Deleted]

I took the time to do something I actually didn't want to do.


In WoW your warrior was relying on sticking on a target. Wether this is in PvP or PvE, sticking on your target was your main reason for damage. If you had to go ranged ( Atramedes airphase / Heroic Council / any other boss ) you wouldn't do any damage at all. In PvP, people could kite you because they knew you couldn't do damage at ranged. And even IF you did damage at ranged, the damage would be laughable.

In Guild Wars 2, this all has no effect anymore. You will be equal amounts of damage at melee + ranged. This means you have double the chances of doing something worthy, instead of "waiting" or struggling to get into meleeranged. I wanted to set that example of Molten Core, yet some people were quicking to respond.

I don't see any cons against this. My GW1 char was actually Warrior/Ranger so that I could shoot from a distance, and get nasty when close in combat.

[Lucky_]

Will you be able to play as a pure melee? Yes.

Will you be able to play as a pure melee and realise your full potential? Highly unlikely.

[Deleted]

Yes. You can focus on been melee as Warrior, Guardian or Thief and be effective, just because you don't have a ranged weapon doesn't mean you've gimped yourself.

You play how YOU want to play not how someone else tells you to because it's "better".

[Squirrelbanes]

Pure melee?
Madness.

Sure...play it if u want to use 1/3 or so of ur profession's potential and be removed from every group you enter.
And.......they're not called classes. Sorry...but the very question seems to be related to that.

[Novmiech]

Well it seems as the general consensus is that I should be excited over having the "option" to go ranged. But remember that same option is also going to deny me a full second set of offensive melee abilities that could compliment the weakness of my primary set, or the option to D-Up with sword and board - reinforcing my front-line thick of the battle brawlyness.

I have always felt like that if a melee cannot get into range he should be kited to death, I have always felt that if a ranged/caster cannot keep his distance from a melee his punishment should be a repeated mace to face. Giving everyone - including traditional melee class's - the option to continue to do optimal DPS at range it seems will blur the lines between the skilled players who can kite like Ben Franklin or stick to their targets like glue, and those who S-Key away like a champ.

I have always felt that a melee being limited by his attack range is not a hindrance; it is a tactical consideration - Death Grip before he blinks? You are dead. Blink before you charge? He is dead. It makes people play the waiting game and make smart decisions with their cool downs. If a warrior can do full damage to a Mage at melee or at range it seems to me like whats the point?

And lastly I would like to reiterate that my concern is not that a warrior's ranged abilities arn't going to be effective, its that fun or not to the masses- I won't enjoy them. If I wanted to cower in the back a shoot a little bow I would roll a ranger =P

[Enosh]

You have to remember that this game is also about dodging incoming damage. I don't think there is any "pure" melee class, and yes you're supposed to avoid damage over doing damage.

I can't find the video, but there is a dragon that summons a wall of bones that traps melee inside and deal them damage with his breathe. You can go ranged for a little while, then continue up when the danger is over.

You can play however you like. It's not even comparable with WoW, where your ranged hits like a noodle compared to your melee attacks. Which means if you really want to go melee, and neglecting incoming damage, then you can. I personally it's also a matter of skill. If you know what a boss is doing, you can avoid their attacks. Even better in PVP where people tend to run when they're on low HP. Instead of ( as in WoW ) hitting like a wet noodle, you can actually kill your opponent with a bow.

so, you can stay at ranged and:
-avoid melee aoe bullshit
-hit just as hard
-have it easier to see when a mob aggroes you allowing you more time to avoid attacks
so why the fuck would you go into melee again?

then again this was also said in a TB video, that melee is being punished way too much atm to the point where you are gimping yourself by picking up a melee weapon

[Novmiech]

so, you can stay at ranged at:
-avoid melee aoe bullshit
-hit just as hard
-have it easier to see when a mob aggroes you allowing you more time to avoid attacks
so why the fuck would you go into melee again?

Exactly. With this model there is no tactical incentive to go melee. Want to go melee because like me you enjoy it? You gain no damage, take more damage, and more aggro (as they said mob proximity is an aggro factor). All reasons I dislike the change for PvE - but with PvP being my primary concern I still dislike that is removes movement as a major skill barrier between good and bad players.

[Lucky_]

Exactly. With this model there is no tactical incentive to go melee. Want to go melee because like me you enjoy it? You gain no damage, take more damage, and more aggro (as they said mob proximity is an aggro factor). All reasons I dislike the change for PvE - but with PvP being my primary concern I still dislike that is removes movement as a major skill barrier between good and bad players.

The game is aimed at casual crowd first and foremost. This has been more or less confirmed.

That said, they are likely trying to get significant tactical depth in, but with lack of trinity and ability to dodge, melee seems really screwed anyway. Things like the need to get in while taking damage from ranged bombardment, and anyone can just dodge away from you using no abilities and so on play a factor, then there's a way to block people from getting into melee and so on.

On the other side of equation there are abilities that block ranged projectiles that might give some incentive to get into melee, but you're still going to be gimped by things mentioned above. Frankly I find it hard to see how they will be able to find a balance between melee and ranged with core gameplay rules being what they are. I'd imagine it will be ranged slug fest with occasional quick switch to melee to kill off a newbie or someone heavy on ranged block abilities.

Videos we've seen so far, including videos of developers and players who can play showcase this - most of them don't ever seem to use melee, and stick to ranged abilities and weapons only. There are a couple of exceptions, but in most cases that is true.


I suspect you'll just have to pretend that shadowfrost is back.

[Zathrendar]

The old, "Ranged dies if melee catches them, melee dies if ranged gets away" system is something that I think ANet said they wanted to get away from because it's ultimately difficult to balance. Either the melee has more tools to close gaps and is OP or the ranged has more tools to create gaps and is OP. It doesn't seem like they want to have "ranged" or "melee" classes any more than they want to have healer/tank classes.

Granted, that system raises the new concern that people have been talking about...why bother going into melee? Hm.



Not really. Hell, if anything positioning and movement are even more important when anyone on the field can pose a ranged threat to you. You seem fixated on kiting, when really kiting wasn't really very tough at all and usually just presented a huge amount of frustration to melee classes.

I have to agree with them that this model is defunct, though. I avoid games with very squishy casters. Nearly every ruleset is phasing out the glass cannon model, beginning with 4th ed. D&D. I don't think melee classes do that much to justify the huge survivability gap they tend to be advantaged by in fantasy. Moreover, casters have ways of shielding and strengthening themselves through magic.

For flavour reasons, it does throw in question what the role of melee combat is, of course. One way around it is to limit how much damage ranged do at close range and vice versa for melee, rather than making it a survivability issue.

[Enosh]

I think the main problem is dodge really
someone who is a at ranged sees the mob turning to him, sees the mob ruining to him and then the mob attacks, that's 3-5s of being able to react to being aggroed, be it by a knock back, a slow, dodge, whatever
someone who is in melee, the mob turns, bam, you have 1s to less than 1s of reaction time (depending on how exactly mob aggro, ability animation etc work, can a mob aggro someone else while he is in the middle of an attack animation? idk) and your snares are useless since you need to be in melee too
and there is no real benefit to exposing yourself like that if the dmg is roughly equal, there is a greater chance of fuck ups for no real gain, this isn't risk vs reward, it's just risk

but it's still in beta and iirc TB said that a lot of people voiced similar concerns so will see if there will be any changes

[Repefe]

You can either go melee/ranged, which is the universal option, or you can go offense/defense melee and act like the meat shield that initiates fights and once attention switches away from him he goes for pressure with 2nd set.

Using two offensive melee sets will probably suited for more specific situations.

[Deleted]

I don't understand this "range oriented professions have the advantage". I will wait with making fun of you all until I'll get my hands on GW2 on the next beta weekend, but I really do see it otherwise.

When you take in to account on what level people are playing GW2 in those beta events and how hard is to find a video of someone who actually grasps the basics of the game you'll see why ranged is considered a path with an advantage - it's easier for beginners.

As the game will move on and people actually l2p, melee WILL tear sh!t up. At least in PVP, I couldn't care less for PVE :|.

As a future engineer I'm actually getting worried when I look at possible trait and skill combos available for Thief or a Warrior.. seriously.. how you cannot see this :/.

[Zathrendar]

From precedent in games like WoW, unless you're a hunter, ranged is not easier for beginners. But GW 2 is a different kettle of fish, I guess.

[Novmiech]

youtube.com/watch?v=EMCDGDCKeEk&feature=plcp&context=C4bdc216VDvjVQa1PpcFPmU4rYsxQ0vcD3ih0jyrjxfaJ8AIq rqhE%3D is a pretty good video where TB/TH comments on the gap between ranged and melee and he makes alot of the same complaints I am - excessive AoE, difficult to see attacking coming from crazy particle effects, and similar ranged/melee damage making the risk v.s. reward model less than functional.

But I guess if enough people are commenting on it in beta there will still be time for adjustments.

[Deleted]

youtube.com/watch?v=EMCDGDCKeEk&feature=plcp&context=C4bdc216VDvjVQa1PpcFPmU4rYsxQ0vcD3ih0jyrjxfaJ8AIq rqhE%3D is a pretty good video where TB/TH comments on the gap between ranged and melee and he makes alot of the same complaints I am - excessive AoE, difficult to see attacking coming from crazy particle effects, and similar ranged/melee damage making the risk v.s. reward model less than functional.

But I guess if enough people are commenting on it in beta there will still be time for adjustments.

I've watched that video. The particle effect spam is being taken care of - that's official. He also speaks about PVE, couldn't care less :|. I was speaking about PVP.

As for the risk vs reward, higher your skill is, less of a risk you are taking ;>. That's why, few months after release I would not be surprised when people will start complaining about melee professions ;p.

But.. after next beta event we should have more information about this.. heh, "issue"...