[MoP Bear] Basically confirmed: still no tanking leather

[Bearshield]

Blizzard had made two different statements on the matter leaving some of us confused (and hoping) about the status of a possible return to tanking leather in MoP. The first Blizzard comment flat out said no, the more recent one said all tanks (even druids) were expected to tank in tank gear. Well then this morning in the latest Blue posts we have:

Part of the reason the druid mechanics worked out as they did is that we needed to make haste and crit reasonable survival stats, since they appear on druid gear.

So even with the addition of a second spec to use it, even with them gutting Feral and making a dedicated tanking tree, we still are not important enough to warrant real tanking leather.

On another note though, I still would really like to know where Monks are expected to get their parry from since I doubt it will be on the dps gear we're all supposed to use. (and heaven forbid they give bears parry...)

I have to wonder why it is Blizz felt after all these years it was time to split Feral when neither cats nor bears are gaining anything from this change. For years, our versatility was held against us as a reason why our specs were not more powerful or lacked certain tools. Well what's their excuse now?

[checking facts]

druid tanks don't get tanking gear because blizz probably feels it's unfair for druids to have to carry 4 different sets of gear in order to be able to play all their specs well

they are thinking about players, not working against them

---------- Post added 2012-04-07 at 04:11 PM ----------

I have to wonder why it is Blizz felt after all these years it was time to split Feral when neither cats nor bears are gaining anything from this change. For years, our versatility was held against us as a reason why our specs were not more powerful or lacked certain tools. Well what's their excuse now?

because the way the new spec and talent systems work they couldn't put 2 roles in one spec and expect it not to be OP.

[Bearshield]

druid tanks don't get tanking gear because blizz probably feels it's unfair for druids to have to carry 4 different sets of gear in order to be able to play all their specs well

they are thinking about players, not working against them

That's a silly excuse and you know it. Good druids have always collected gear for all their roles anyhow and that has often included 2 feral sets. If you raid as a MT, your reforging is less than ideal for dps, thus making a second set desirable even in Cata.

And looking at the new spec and talent systems, what on there do bears have that cats do not (or vice versa) that would make today's feral OP? (in pve, it really wouldn't be all that hard for them to adjust specific things to not imbalance them in pvp ONLY)

[Mudkiper]

I have to wonder why it is Blizz felt after all these years it was time to split Feral when neither cats nor bears are gaining anything from this change. For years, our versatility was held against us as a reason why our specs were not more powerful or lacked certain tools. Well what's their excuse now?

They split them because cats survivability was too good and adding new abilities to the feral tree for tanking would make it worse. As for monks, they'll most likely only use dodge, pretty sure they have some ability that gives them a huge amount of dodge on a short CD.

I think you're just trying to invent a problem where there isn't one.. for no reason.

[tangedyn]

It's better this way.

[Bearshield]

They split them because cats survivability was too good and adding new abilities to the feral tree for tanking would make it worse. As for monks, they'll most likely only use dodge, pretty sure they have some ability that gives them a huge amount of dodge on a short CD.

I think you're just trying to invent a problem where there isn't one.. for no reason.

Monks have both dodge and parry currently. I have leveled one to 39 and copied a premade 85 and the parry value remains the same so I have yet to discover what affects it but being that it does affect certain abilities, I don't see it going anywhere. (at least for now)

As to "cat survivability", you are referring to pvp and I was referring to pve. The couple of survivability cd's bears are getting would not have made a huge difference to a cat in pve. Frankly they could have made one of the bear cd's a talent choice since many of our "choices" are garbage anyhow, at least then it would feel like we were choosing something useful to our spec.

Having questions and concerns about the direction of our class and specs after riding the storm that is feral for the past seven years is not "inventing a problem". Feral Druids of both varieties are losing more than they gain in MoP.

[mmff4]

I have to wonder why it is Blizz felt after all these years it was time to split Feral when neither cats nor bears are gaining anything from this change. For years, our versatility was held against us as a reason why our specs were not more powerful or lacked certain tools. Well what's their excuse now?

I think it was mainly because with the new system, a feral druid would gain both cat and bear abilities and bonuses, if there was only one specialization. This way they can sure a bear druid won't be able to off tank and deal competitive damage when off tank isn't needed. Druids would have been too powerful as off tanks compared to other tank classes. For example it is nearly impossible to deal competitive damage as a prot warrior when you're not tanking anything.

[Deleted]

I don't mind it that much, however I'd like to see separate tier sets for Guardian druids only, with some decent stats instead of haste.

[Bearshield]

I think it was mainly because with the new system, a feral druid would gain both cat and bear abilities and bonuses, if there was only one specialization. This way they can sure a bear druid won't be able to off tank and deal competitive damage when off tank isn't needed. Druids would have been too powerful as off tanks compared to other tank classes. For example it is nearly impossible to deal competitive damage as a prot warrior when you're not tanking anything.

You mean the way it is right now? The way it's been for years?

I wouldn't really have a problem with the split if we'd actually gained something from it. But we're not gaining anything from this change.

---------- Post added 2012-04-07 at 11:48 AM ----------

I'd like to see separate tier sets for Guardian druids only, with some decent stats instead of haste.

This was exactly my point.

[Elbren]

I know I haven't kept up w/ all of the new MoP info that's been coming out, but I'm surprised that there aren't more people that agree with this.

How do you split the dps and tank builds of feral into different 'specs' and still justify not giving bears actual tank gear?
How do you then go out and create another tanking class that uses leather and still somehow try and justify the absence of tanking leather?

[kendro1200]

There is a possibility that guardians will have a separate tier set with defensive stats, but they'll have to share feral and rogue leather for bracers, belts and boots, on top of sharing a weapon with ferals and hunters. The same kind of thing that goes on with balance and resto druids, where they made spirit a less awful stat for balance druids so that way gear could get consolidated a bit.

The bearcats of DS were probably the point in which the feral tree crossed the line of what was "acceptable" in dev eyes. Even at Blizzcon some dev had made the comment that they personally disliked bearcats and felt it was unfair to warriors that bearcats could function. Obvious and unacceptable bias, as there are lots of tools bear druids don't have, wish they had, but have been refused on many occasions, and the instance in which they get a toy that no other tank has all the sudden age old mechanics need to be ripped asunder. So long as people sub to the game though, they'll do whatever they please and largely ignore the occasions in which the community gives them sincere words of wisdom.

[Deleted]

I know I haven't kept up w/ all of the new MoP info that's been coming out, but I'm surprised that there aren't more people that agree with this.

How do you split the dps and tank builds of feral into different 'specs' and still justify not giving bears actual tank gear?
How do you then go out and create another tanking class that uses leather and still somehow try and justify the absence of tanking leather?

Easy. Why should they add more loot for the sake of it? Surely it's better for everyone, including the tank themselfs, to have you use DPS agility leather? Loottables are big enough already.

Why would you want tanking gear? It's boring not getting a DPS increase from item upgrades, real boring.

[Bullettime]

They made the talent split because under the new specialization system, everything you needed would have been completely baseline. All kitties would have the entire tanking toolkit baseline in their spec and all bears would have had the kitty toolkit entirely at their disposal. It would have led to a more extreme situation of what's happening on live already in that it's way too hard to balance. Cats wouldn't be able to have competitive DPS when they could just go bear form and be a juggernaut instantly, in the same spec, in the same gear. Bears would be able to go kitty and do competitive DPS.

That might not sound bad to some of the longtime Druid players but in today's game, it's highly imbalanced. Warriors and Paladins for example can't throw on a 2h and do competitive DPS when not tanking so why should Druids? Even a Blood DK can't just change presence and do competitive DPS. A tank is intended to tank and a DPS is intended to DPS. There would be entirely too much crossover and entirely too much potency in the spec when every single role efficiency boost would be baked into your spec baseline with zero tradeoff.

[Mammoon]

Easy. Why should they add more loot for the sake of it? Surely it's better for everyone, including the tank themselfs, to have you use DPS agility leather? Loottables are big enough already.

Why would you want tanking gear? It's boring not getting a DPS increase from item upgrades, real boring.

1) It wouldn't be "for the sake of it", it would be for the sake and druid and monk tanks.

2) "Surely" it isn't better to have tanks use DPS leather, since often times the stats do not benefit their tanking abilities AT ALL.

3) "Loot tables are big enough already" because Blizzard has failed over the last 2 content patches to produce big raids (not to mention, they failed to produce good raids). If there were 12-14 bosses in each raid, then loot tables wouldn't be too big, they would be perfect, even with another set of leather tank gear.

4) You would want tanking gearing because it helps improve your survivability... I honestly don't even know how you can ask that....

5) It is boring not getting a DPS increase for item upgrades.... it is also boring NOT GETTING A TANKING UPGRADE FROM ITEM UPGRADES... which is exactly where bear and monk tanks are coming from, since they can't get any real tanking upgrades since they don't exist.


All in all, they need to add leather tanking gear since there are now 2 specs for it, or simply make haste = dodge for bears / monks or something.

If they continue this approach (which they will), then you could ask why they continue to have plate tanking gear, instead of all rolling it into the same plate gear............ pretty much the same thought pattern we see in leather tanking gear now that there are 2 leather tanking specs.

[Sinndra]

There is a possibility that guardians will have a separate tier set with defensive stats, but they'll have to share feral and rogue leather for bracers, belts and boots, on top of sharing a weapon with ferals and hunters.

you wont be sharing weapons with hunters in Mists. hunters are the ONLY class using bows/guns/xbows. no more stat sticks.

OT: it is still early beta.. there hasnt been ANY tier sets with values listed yet.. so be patient. lets wait a while for them to actually put that gear in the game and see what it looks like,

[Deleted]

I'm interested as to how this'll work with the Monk Class. I'm going to be a Monk Healer & Tank. I'd like to know how the stats of Crit & Haste are going to be beneficial to the Brewmaster.

[Aquamonkey]

Splitting off leather into another set to include dedicated tanking stats would break looting even more if they continue to release raids with only 7 bosses. We're already too cramped for loot drops that many slots don't have anything available.

[chrisisvacant]

You mean the way it is right now? The way it's been for years?

I wouldn't really have a problem with the split if we'd actually gained something from it. But we're not gaining anything from this change.

---------- Post added 2012-04-07 at 11:48 AM ----------



This was exactly my point.

You're really tired of rolling against rogues and hunters, huh.

[huth]

You mean the way it is right now? The way it's been for years?

I wouldn't really have a problem with the split if we'd actually gained something from it. But we're not gaining anything from this change.

No. Worse. You would have every single bear and cat ability and passive at the same time, something that isn't possible on live.
If you're an agi stacker, the only difference would be reforges and enchants.


Also, parry now scales directly with strength in the same way agility and dodge do.

[Deleted]

1) It wouldn't be "for the sake of it", it would be for the sake and druid and monk tanks.

2) "Surely" it isn't better to have tanks use DPS leather, since often times the stats do not benefit their tanking abilities AT ALL.

3) "Loot tables are big enough already" because Blizzard has failed over the last 2 content patches to produce big raids (not to mention, they failed to produce good raids). If there were 12-14 bosses in each raid, then loot tables wouldn't be too big, they would be perfect, even with another set of leather tank gear.

4) You would want tanking gearing because it helps improve your survivability... I honestly don't even know how you can ask that....

5) It is boring not getting a DPS increase for item upgrades.... it is also boring NOT GETTING A TANKING UPGRADE FROM ITEM UPGRADES... which is exactly where bear and monk tanks are coming from, since they can't get any real tanking upgrades since they don't exist.


All in all, they need to add leather tanking gear since there are now 2 specs for it, or simply make haste = dodge for bears / monks or something.

If they continue this approach (which they will), then you could ask why they continue to have plate tanking gear, instead of all rolling it into the same plate gear............ pretty much the same thought pattern we see in leather tanking gear now that there are 2 leather tanking specs.

You are balanced around having less defensive stats. You want your own loot for the sake of it, there's no other argument.