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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by L Kebess View Post
    PS : If any of you guys could post this on the WoW US official Forums, MoP Beta Class section, it would be great, as more people could get to it, so could Developers themselves, and hence, improve the discussion.
    I personally can't do this, as I don't have an additional US account, which is sadly needed to be able to post in there -- go figure why an EU account doesn't have that privilege...
    I posted it on the US beta forum for you a couple days ago, unfortunately last I checked there had been no responses.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4365752463

  2. #22
    Where to start...

    First of all, Ï must say/agree that warriors through dragon soul (tanking wise) have been a big let down, considering Blizzard only managed to make one out of eight fights where you would actually consider bringing warriors, without it being a loss. No doubt that block, crit block, massive aoe dmg, the ability to mass taunt bloods on spine and make an actual use of heroic leap to kite the bloods on the third tendon, when shit got real, but other than that the overall treatment of warrior tanks have been one big disappointment. To this I should properly add that the actual idea behind T13 tank 4 set is good, really good actually, but its just not so great, when they decided to give warriors yet another raid "sacrificing" ability, so that you basically are left with ER and SB to serve as real personales (and yeah i hate the idea behind rallying cry for tanks).

    Now, about people being concerned about stamina being left out as a main tanking stat in mop, because of the exp/hit effect on mitigation... Well im actually glad that they finally decided to make stamina a more natural part of the game, instead of something that u could decide to stack if you were progressing on an encounter, that demanded a big healthpool, due to massive and continues spell hits. From my point of view, your healthpool should automatically scale with gear and content, just as the boss hits are, and therefore making you able to focus on a more "offensive" statchoice, which would make you have a steady and substantial dmg and threat output, while it still gains you the ability to mitigate through rage.

    Now, and this is primarially a 10 man concern since tank dmg is more or less irrelevant on 25 man, lets say that an average 10 man group run with 3 healers 2 tanks and 5 dps (i know this is not the case on many fights, but its how it is on most progress encounters, or atleast should be) you would end up with 7 potential damage dealers > 100/7 = 14,3%ish > tank damage end up being rather significant, especially on encounters where melee and ranged are seperated most of the time, best example is WM where ranged would focus 100% on drakes, and the tanks + melee (1 rogue, everything else was useless) were responsible for dealing with two melee adds, which brings me back to the point above, a more steady and substantial threat and dmg output without having to sacrifice mitigation, is only gonna be a plus, since it allows developers to make more different encounters, it makes the tanking roll more challenging and fun and the actual difference between a good and a bad tank will be huge, in addition to now, where everyone thinks you're a good tank just for staying alive.

    My 5 cents... for now

    -Mailun

  3. #23
    Mechagnome L Kebess's Avatar
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    Okey, thanks Bearshield, ; ) I'm checking that out right now !

  4. #24
    new datamined patch notes bring some nice goodies for prot warriors

  5. #25
    Mechagnome L Kebess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by etubrutei View Post
    new datamined patch notes bring some nice goodies for prot warriors
    Sadly, not that much. Nothing new here in fact. It's only the confirmation of GC's last week post, if you followed. There's a link in my OP.

  6. #26
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    Our prot rotation is reminding me more and more of my fire mage rotation! With the new change to Dev having a chance to give a free cast HS it's the equivalent to hot streak, Shield slam is like living bomb etc etc. Its a priority rotation with a spam ability that can proc extra dmg at no cost.

    It's not that bad of a rotation keeps it rather simple while we are focusing on the rest of our duties. I like it so far but I'm still not sold on the "active" tanking yet as I find its more save 60 rage pop shield save 60 rage pop shield. With the dev procking free HS and the new incite glyph I fear that this will make it even more predictable as now we can just keep using shield block and cast HS/cleave on free casts only. The only time I see us making a choice of HS or SB is when we vastly out gear the content and we know our healers are sitting at 100% mana all the time and don't care if we get hit harder >.<

  7. #27
    There are new changes coming in.. Might say new Shield Barrier looks interesting, will have to test it tho.

    Shield Barrier - Raise your shield, absorbing (100% of AP) damage for the next 6 sec. Absorption amount increases with attack power.
    And that is going right way, of course if that would be baseline -.-

    Enraged Regeneration - Now costs 60 Rage. Costs no Rage if used while Enraged. Now heals over 5 secs, down from 10 secs.

  8. #28
    The Lightbringer Zell the Stormbreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ysearia View Post
    There are new changes coming in.. Might say new Shield Barrier looks interesting, will have to test it tho.

    And that is going right way, of course if that would be baseline -.-
    Enraged Regeneration remains weak compared to Impending Victory, even with the buff that allows you to use it when not enraged.

    The changes to Shield Barrier, however, are absolutely fantastic and the best bit of news for Protection warriors since Warbringer made its appearance in the WotLK beta.

    I’m not kidding. This is my overall analysis of the latest changes, and Shield Barrier plays a large part of said analysis.

    With regard to the OP, however, I disagree with you about Ultimatum (the Heroic Strike proc). There’s simply no reason for it to be there; it’s designed to replace the feel of Sword and Board and prop up our use of Heroic Strike outside of conventional offtanking, neither of which are worth the hassle.

    Return the old Sword and Board which everyone loved, and tweak the rage gain from abilities to offset it. From there, you’re free to remove Ultimatum and probably Heroic Strike – it simply doesn’t have a role in the new rage system for any spec.

  9. #29
    I am sorry but the last shield barrier iteration is horrible. Anything that adds mitigation to stamina is broken by design because it produces one stupidly op stat.

    In addition, I really dislike any attempt to build in an absorb mechanic into the warrior model because it is bound to counteract with SB effectiveness. They should stick to magic percent reduction imo.
    Last edited by kopcap; 2012-04-26 at 01:16 PM.

  10. #30
    The Lightbringer Zell the Stormbreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    I am sorry but the last shield barrier iteration is horrible. Anything that adds mitigation to stamina is broken by design because it produces one stupidly op stat.
    I disagree.

    We would need to be approaching levels where stacking stamina to the exclusion of other stats (and socket bonuses) would provide significant increases to Vengeance, as well as outweighing the DR contribution by passive avoidance/mastery.

    It won’t. And by my count, not by a long way.

    Over the course of a fight, a slightly larger absorb shield each time you use it, will not even come close to outweighing those other stats; particularly when Shield Block is still up for use.

    The new Shield Barrier helps where warriors have been traditionally weak – big nukes that are either magical, or physical but unblockable. The old Shield Barrier might have been marginally better with one, but the new Shield Barrier is significantly better with the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    In addition, I really dislike any attempt to build in an absorb mechanic into the warrior model because it is bound to counteract with SB effectiveness. They should stick to magic percent reduction imo.
    I disagree.

    Previously, there was no choice because Shield Block was always preferable unless there was magic in the fight. Now, even in the absence of magic, Shield Barrier has a role in our mitigation and provides a choice over which ability is best to use within the immediate future.

    In my opinion, Block and Barrier now complement each other.

  11. #31
    Mechagnome L Kebess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine View Post

    I disagree.

    Previously, there was no choice because Shield Block was always preferable unless there was magic in the fight. Now, even in the absence of magic, Shield Barrier has a role in our mitigation and provides a choice over which ability is best to use within the immediate future.

    In my opinion, Block and Barrier now complement each other.
    Yes, I agree that Barrier isn't bad at all. An absorb effect like that would balance a lot of things we previously simply couldn't deal with (e.g: unblocable attacks).
    However, the numbers aren't that good at all.

    I've checked it a few times already on the beta, and sadly, with some 250K health (two Stam trinkets), I can only get a 28K absorb shield with it when at 100% Vengeance.

    28K-30K absorb every 6-8sec is simply ridiculous, when you compare this to the 25% magical DR for 6 sec we had until now.

    This absorb mechanism isn't bad, BUT, on its own, and replacing a huge ability like the 25% magical DR we had, is a pretty bad idea and is a huge nerf when dealing with magical damage.

    We need this ability for unblocable ''physical'' abilities, but absolutely not to replace something like the 25% DR we used to have. It simply can't replace that

    My suggestion is bring back old Shield Barrier (25% magic DR for 6 sec), keep actual Shield Block, and bring in a new Shield ability called for example ''Shield Fender'' or something, which does exactly the same as the new absorb Barrier.

    This way, rather than having 2 different choices, for 2 deferent situations, we have 3 instead for 3 different scenarios :

    1 - Melee swings => Shield Block

    2 - Magic DR => ''old'' Shield Barrier (25% DR for 6 sec)

    3 - Unblockable non magic attacks, or whenever we need that extra absorb => Shield Fender

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-26 at 04:49 PM ----------

    Also they should reduce, the Rage cost to some 40 rage instead. Right now 60 Rage is too much when you are not spamming Shield Block, as you nearly ain't getting any Critical Blocks and hence, Enraged, to boost your Rage regen.
    Right now, when I start using Shield Barrier, I can only place one single Barrier every 8 to 12 sec, and mostly only 1 every 10 sec. This is way too few.

    Thus, either double the absorb, or reduce its cost.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine View Post
    We would need to be approaching levels where stacking stamina to the exclusion of other stats (and socket bonuses) would provide significant increases to Vengeance, as well as outweighing the DR contribution by passive avoidance/mastery.

    It won’t. And by my count, not by a long way.
    In other news, shield tanks have been stacking stam since July last year. Only things preventing them from going all out on stam were CTC and trinket choices. Now that with the proposed changes to SB the little inconvenience called CTC is finally out of the way, and mastery goes from the best filler stat to somewhere in between spirit and str, and returns on extra avoidance are trying to divide themselves by 0, I am not sure how much more help stam does need.

    Previously, there was no choice because Shield Block was always preferable unless there was magic in the fight.Now, even in the absence of magic, Shield Barrier has a role in our mitigation and provides a choice over which ability is best to use within the immediate future.

    In my opinion, Block and Barrier now complement each other.
    So lets take your typical dawgon with a typical 100-150k breath and a typical 100-120k unblocked swing on a typical 1.5s swing timer. Thou has 3 second on dbm timer and 60 rage in your pocket. Your action? You still think you have a choice?
    Last edited by kopcap; 2012-04-27 at 01:25 AM.

  13. #33
    The Lightbringer Zell the Stormbreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by L Kebess View Post
    I've checked it a few times already on the beta, and sadly, with some 250K health (two Stam trinkets), I can only get a 28K absorb shield with it when at 100% Vengeance.

    28K-30K absorb every 6-8sec is simply ridiculous, when you compare this to the 25% magical DR for 6 sec we had until now.
    I'm not even remotely worried about that right now, and neither should you be; it's purely a tuning issue with a change that's only just gone live. Wait out on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    In other news, shield tanks have been stacking stam since July last year. Only things preventing them from going all out on stam were CTC and trinket choices. Now that with the proposed changes to SB the little inconvenience called CTC is finally out of the way, and mastery goes from the best filler stat to somewhere in between spirit and str, and returns on extra avoidance are trying to divide themselves by 0, I am not sure how much more help stam does need.
    Your argument was previously that stacking stamina would also contribute to warrior mitigation, which is demonstrably untrue thanks to the addition to the absorb being so small. If you wish to discuss the severe devaluation of mastery thanks to the two-roll block system, or the way Shield Block has since been implemented (100% block chance for six seconds), there’s nothing to discuss. I agree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    So lets take your typical dawgon with a typical 100-150k breath and a typical 100-120k unblocked swing on a typical 1.5s swing timer. Thou has 3 second on dbm timer and 60 rage in your pocket. Your action? You still think you have a choice?
    That’s not “mitigation” level damage, so it’s a bad example; that’s major damage and would call for the use of Shield Wall or Last Stand, just as you would do now (or an external cooldown, of course). Asking your question in such a way implies that you don’t really understand what mitigation actually means, either under the new system or even the current live one.

    Mitigation is designed to smooth normal damage spikes and be felt over the course of a fight. It’s not designed to save your life in an emergency, that’s what major cooldowns are for.

    Quite why you’d choose to bring up an example calling for a major cooldown, then tack a badly constructed active mitigation argument into it, is beyond me. Especially when the example numbers you provide would (under the worst case scenario) see almost exactly the same reduction regardless of what cooldown you chose to use.

    You’d still be taking well over 200k damage in 1.5 seconds, so I sincerely hope you’re not arguing that such an occurrence isn’t calling for a major cooldown.

    And might I politely request that you extend the same courtesy to me as I’ve extended to you? Because I disagree with your assessment shouldn’t nudge you into trying to patronise me to your view of things.

    It impresses nobody.
    Last edited by Zell the Stormbreaker; 2012-04-27 at 08:26 AM. Reason: Messed up link coding.

  14. #34
    Lets ignore crit block for simplicity sake.

    SB window = 6 sec
    Swing timer = 1.5 sec
    Swing timer after TC = 1.8 sec
    Swings per SB = 6 / 1.8 = 3.33
    Swing size = 100k
    Unblocked % = 30%
    Unblocked dmg per swing = 100k * 0.3 = 30k
    Unblocked dmg per SB = 30k * 3.33 = 100k

    =>

    Mitigation per SBlock = 100k, or 1.66k per rage (2k per rage with 4p).
    Mitigation per SBar = 30k, or 0.5k per rage.

    Which one do you think is going to be better at "mitigation"?

    Your argument was previously that stacking stamina would also contribute to warrior mitigation, which is demonstrably untrue thanks to the addition to the absorb being so small.
    Its either "small" or "untrue". Can't have both.

    Point is, stam is already "too good". Add a little extra, it will tip over. If you swap one avoidance trinket for one stam trinket, you will get 900 ap. Thats 900 dmg per shield. If you plan to keep barrier on CD for illustration sake, thats 900 health per 6 sec or 150 HPS. If you swap 2 trinkets, thats 300 HPS. As you can see, this scales quickly. It will scale even quicker in MoP. I don't know yet if this is "big" or "small", but don't tell me that this "does not contribute". In the off chance that Blizzard decides to make SBar competitive with SBlock while using this model, this contribution will become a whole lot higher.
    Last edited by kopcap; 2012-04-27 at 09:11 AM.

  15. #35
    The Lightbringer Zell the Stormbreaker's Avatar
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    There’s a much better tone to this post; thank you.

    Anyway, here’s my calculations:

    Swings per SBlock = 4 @ 120k
    DTP Swing = 84k (336k total)
    Breath damage = 150k
    Total DTP SBlock = 486k
    Total DTPS = 81k

    Swings per new SBarrier = 4 @ 120k
    DTP Swing = 120k (480k total)
    Breath damage = 150k
    Total DTP SBarrier (minus 60k absorbs) = 570k
    Total DTPS = 95k

    Swings per old SBarrier = 4 @ 120k
    DTP Swing = 120k (480k total)
    Breath damage = 112.5k
    Total DTP SBarrier = 592.5k
    Total DTPS = 98.75k

    I changed the numbers above, given that the attack speed debuff no longer exists and I’m using the worst case scenario erstwhile presented. For argument’s sake, let’s just imagine that Weakened Blows is also applied. Most importantly, Shield Barrier can be used again with a gap of only one GCD and that means two absorbs per six seconds; there’s no value to doing this with Shield Block or the old Shield Barrier.

    Now obviously, there are glaring discrepancies here. I’ve discounted critical block as you’ve done, discounted avoidance entirely, and assumed that no blocks happened without Shield Block up. Clearly, those are huge leaps into suspension of disbelief.

    Yet, we’re still looking at the new iteration of Shield Barrier being preferable to the old one. Given that the 30k absorb is used as a conservative figure and is based on current itemization which will undoubtedly not reflect level 90 endgame, this is well within the realms of tuning from a DTPS standpoint.

    And regardless, with current itemization, you’re looking at a potential one-second damage spike between 232.5k and 240k whichever cooldown you use.

    It’s Shield Wall time.

    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    I don't know yet if this is "big" or "small", but don't tell me that this "does not contribute". In the off chance that Blizzard decides to make SBar competitive with SBlock while using this model, this contribution will become a whole lot higher.
    By “does not contribute”, I mean “won’t contribute beyond the level 90 stamina baseline”. Yes, it’ll obviously contribute in a small way – but not to the extent where stacking stamina is the default option (assuming you’re correctly geared for the content). That said, my original wording was wrong and I apologise for that.

    All told, however, it’s once again well within the realms of tuning and that’s only to be expected later in the beta.

  16. #36
    Why are you comparing 1x SBlock (60 rage) vs 2x New SBar (120 rage) vs 1 Old SBar (60 rage)?

    If you are talking about "smoothing normal damage spikes", there is nothing more normal than white swings and there is nothing better at smoothing this out than SBlock. I hope we are not debating this.

    If you are talking about incoming magic burst, then your scenarios will have the following corrections:

    1) You are using SBlock only. This means you don't need to pool rage for the burst, you simply keep SBlock on CD. This has an implication that your current health right before the burst is going to be higher than in two other cases when you gonna be lacking SB right before it happens.

    2) Here you are pooling rage for 2x SBars and use the second as soon as it becomes available. Self explanatory.

    3) Here you are doing the same you did in 2) cept you forget that you have an extra 60 to spend on something. For example, a SBlock. In which case the numbers look like this:

    Swings per old SBarrier = 4 @ 120k
    DTP Swing = 84k (336k total)
    Breath damage = 112.5k
    Total DTP SBarrier = 448.5k
    Total DTPS = 74.75k

    This seems a lot more sensible to me. Sure, we may not have enough rage available right after the breath and may have to wait a little. However, magic burst almost always has cast time. And even when it does not, it always resets boss's swing. Meaning you have at least 1.5 sec of room to breath. Lets take another unblocked hit for argument sake, you still get 80.75k DTPS, a fair bit off your second scenario. You need three of them to get close.

    But wait, I forgot the best part. An absorb gets used up as soon as it pops, regardless whether its used on magic or melee. Magic reduction does not get eaten by melee. It stays there. In the world of limited resources, this means you can pop the old SBar 5 seconds before the breath and have plenty of time to gather enough rage for a SBlock to cover the burst window. This will safely put the spike under 200k at worst.

    Not to mention that magic reduction scales a lot better with content than AP ever will, provided they are going to keep the coefficient in the realm of reason.
    Last edited by kopcap; 2012-04-27 at 11:49 AM.

  17. #37
    Latest build appears to have removed the rage cost from TC, which is nice

  18. #38
    The Lightbringer Zell the Stormbreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    Why are you comparing 1x SBlock (60 rage) vs 2x New SBar (120 rage) vs 1 Old SBar (60 rage)?
    Because over six seconds, there is value in using new Barrier twice - the other two choices don't have that value.

    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    If you are talking about "smoothing normal damage spikes", there is nothing more normal than white swings and there is nothing better at smoothing this out than SBlock. I hope we are not debating this.
    Not at all. In fact, my earlier examples deliberately point out that Shield Block is substantially better for routine mitigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    1) You are using SBlock only. This means you don't need to pool rage for the burst, you simply keep SBlock on CD. This has an implication that your current health right before the burst is going to be higher than in two other cases when you gonna be lacking SB right before it happens.
    That's purely an inference and, again, assume nothing else is in play (such as, for example, Impending Victory). It's a very difficult comparison to math out in "the real world".

    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    2) Here you are pooling rage for 2x SBars and use the second as soon as it becomes available. Self explanatory.
    It's also imperfect because the absorb might have far less value at that time. You could, for arguments sake, put up the barrier at 100 rage, Shield Slam, then use Shield Block immediately. You could even get the barrier up and then count the Shield Block afterwards at the first second of the six.

    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    3) Here you are doing the same you did in 2) cept you forget that you have an extra 60 to spend on something. For example, a SBlock. In which case the numbers look like this:

    Swings per old SBarrier = 4 @ 120k
    DTP Swing = 84k (336k total)
    Breath damage = 112.5k
    Total DTP SBarrier = 448.5k
    Total DTPS = 74.75k

    This seems a lot more sensible to me. Sure, we may not have enough rage available right after the breath and may have to wait a little. However, magic burst almost always has cast time. And even when it does not, it always resets boss's swing. Meaning you have at least 1.5 sec of room to breath. Lets take another unblocked hit for argument sake, you still get 80.75k DTPS, a fair bit off your second scenario. You need three of them to get close.
    Yep, all fair enough corrections given the scenario.

    I suppose my question is how often are tanks taking unavoidable damage spikes over 220k?

    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    But wait, I forgot the best part. An absorb gets used up as soon as it pops, regardless whether its used on magic or melee. Magic reduction does not get eaten by melee. It stays there. In the world of limited resources, this means you can pop the old SBar 5 seconds before the breath and have plenty of time to gather enough rage for a SBlock to cover the burst window. This will safely put the spike under 200k at worst.
    But the magic of an absorb is that you can't effectively waste it and I'm assuming it'll stack (if it doesn't, I'll be sorely disappointed). If we set it up properly given the cast times and values we've mentioned, you can get a 60k absorb up and STILL be building resources for the next Shield Block before the hit lands. That type of number could even replace the need for a major cooldown, that's how high its potential is and its value doesn't go down thanks to avoidance.

    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    Not to mention that magic reduction scales a lot better with content than AP ever will, provided they are going to keep the coefficient in the realm of reason.
    That was never the argument, though - 25% flat reduction is strong, no doubt. My point is that the new version has value for magical damage, AND physical damage. Not only that, it's a compelling choice in far more situations including things like Focused Assault or Impale.

  19. #39
    But the magic of an absorb is that you can't effectively waste it and I'm assuming it'll stack
    Magic reduction is a preventive mechanic, it can't be wasted by definition. You always know when you are going to use it and what you are going to use it for. For as much as I'd want the absorb to stack too, it is capped by rage intake. Don't forget that chaining 2 absorbs into a 2 sec windows comes at a cost of 12 seconds without a SB.

    That was never the argument, though - 25% flat reduction is strong, no doubt. My point is that the new version has value for magical damage, AND physical damage.
    That's not a virtue, that's an issue imo. Think about it from a balance standpoint. We already have SBlock which is an extremely powerful antimelee mechanic. Melee is already the least of our concerns. Giving us a powerful absorb would make us broken. They can only give us a half-assed one like the one we see now, neither here nor there. You know a mechanic is a joke when two previous xpac trinkets trump it by almost two fold. A magic only CD has a higher chance of being more meaningful. I don't mind a 90k absorb either, I just know its never going to happen. Where as a 90k damage reduction from a 360k breath may.

    Not only that, it's a compelling choice in far more situations including things like Focused Assault
    Focussed assault is not a class related issue though, its a design issue.
    Last edited by kopcap; 2012-04-27 at 12:39 PM.

  20. #40
    I was reading today posts and like wtf...

    "Shield of the Righteous now reduces the physical damage you take by 30% instead of increasing your block chance."

    !?

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