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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyxis86 View Post
    There are so many aspects to this most of you don't understand. Anyways, I'm just getting all nostalgic and shit and over thinking a simple question. Too da loo
    While I don't disagree with anything you say, being fantasy, there's no reason that the Alliance wouldn't have tactics at least as good as the marines. In a lot of ways the Alliance (in my view of WoW) are in much the same situation as the marines, facing superior numbers and relying on their tactics and guile to hold them off.

    But a lot of it comes down to what tech the marines get and how it related to magic - can alliance stealth around or use eye of kilrog etc for risk free surveillance (while marines wouldn't get drones...). Mind control a marine and have him go apeshit on his comrades... It's a somewhat arbitrary result.

  2. #122
    Something that you might want to consider as well: Azeroth has been in an almost constant state of war for the last 1000 years, with large scale conflicts going back another 10 000 atleast, with differing enemies using vastly differing tactics. As shown in WC3 and TFT, even when -their own dead- come back to life they can build new tactics and push back. The tactical abilities of the leaders of a group of soldiers under the Alliance would more than likely match any of those held by a Marine leader, so it really comes down to 'can 100 guns beat 5000 swords'.

  3. #123
    Legendary! Sorrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volta View Post
    I play a few rounds of WC2 these days :P RTS standards are good, but technically all footmen are warriors, just as all grunts are warriors. But those that make the deification of the US army their hobby and/or religion tend to toss RTS standards out the window here, and think that every single US marine is a demigod hero who can't be killed with simple fire (fireball/rain of fire/incinerate) or ice (as alliance spellcasters tend to be frost specific in general and RTS).

    They also say that Gryphon Riders that have lightning hammers are no match for a helicopter...
    Seriously...? If they don't have lightning hammers what do they fight with, fucking pitchforks????

    Again, from all I see - everyone that's rooting for the US marines considers this scenario as fighting against peasants that are throwing eggs at them.
    I think the real point is that alot of people here may never have played the RTS games and thus don't know or realize what an ACTUAL Alliance army even pre NE/Draenei/Worgen could do .

    I mean the funny thing is they're tech is actually advanced enough that they can make things we can't(see airships) but they just don't make the same things as us due to magic making things we would find impractical practical and vice versa. So again i say their tech isn't inferior just different.

    A good example would be from the anime slayers. In season 3 they leave their area for the outside world and find one with VERY unadvanced magic. As such things like bombs are used. All the main characters are suprised to see them while only one even KNOWS of them. He then goes on to say that research into them was abandoned because even the most basic explosion/fire spell was stronger.

    In short you build/develop what is most practical for YOU and that is not a universal toolset by and large.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    I think the real point is that alot of people here may never have played the RTS games and thus don't know or realize what an ACTUAL Alliance army even pre NE/Draenei/Worgen could do .

    I mean the funny thing is they're tech is actually advanced enough that they can make things we can't(see airships) but they just don't make the same things as us due to magic making things we would find impractical practical and vice versa. So again i say their tech isn't inferior just different.

    A good example would be from the anime slayers. In season 3 they leave their area for the outside world and find one with VERY unadvanced magic. As such things like bombs are used. All the main characters are suprised to see them while only one even KNOWS of them. He then goes on to say that research into them was abandoned because even the most basic explosion/fire spell was stronger.

    In short you build/develop what is most practical for YOU and that is not a universal toolset by and large.
    Ah slayers, yes, that was a good one. But an excellent example of ''technological superiority/inferiority''. People apparently just don't want to apply logic (as in the art of valid conclusions) and see that a fireball is technologically far superior to a granade/rocket.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyxis86 View Post
    I think you're some ignorant kid who knows nothing of real war or practices. Afghanistan didn't prove shit. This is an hypothetical open field battle, mano to mano. What you're referring to is terrorism and guerrilla warfare tactics. You know the quickest way to get a crowd of 5000 civilians under control with 100 marines? Shoot one of them. You really under estimate the psychological effect seeing 1 person's face explode and brains paint the pavement can have on persons who are not mentally hardened towards that fact of war. I am in no way stating that this would be the right action to take, but if it were literally a situation in which 100 marines lives were in jeopardy, this would be the outcome.

    There are a multitude of possible scenarios that this 100 vs 1000 game could be carried out in. Thee ONLY, and I say that to emphasize the fact that there is only 1 possible scenario that 100 marines could be wiped out by a technologically inferior force with superior numbers, is if the 100 marines were in a flat terrain, such as a desert and instantly surrounded by 1000 bodies with 0 cover at all. Then yes, the marines would more then likely be wiped out. But so would any other force.

    Also, regarding this whole entrench into the mountains business that you two are arguing about. In no situation, ever, would a platoon and a half of marines back themselves into a no escape situation, when faced against a far inferior force. You might see us go up the mountain, but you sure as hell aren't going to see us coming down the other side and obliterating your flank.

    There are so many aspects to this most of you don't understand. Anyways, I'm just getting all nostalgic and shit and over thinking a simple question. Too da loo
    Ahaha, I would like to see the marines try psychological warfare on Alliance troops. These aren't civilians. These are people who have seen comrades get their soul ripped out on them and then turn on the next person in line as an undead. People who have stood their ground as 100000 demons poured out of a portal from hell to take their city. Who razed their homeland because it was full of the walking corpses of their family.

    Marines come back from a tour of duty with PTSD because they saw their friends killed by a IED, Alliance soldiers return to the front after seeing their friends eaten by undead.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Ahaha, I would like to see the marines try psychological warfare on Alliance troops. These aren't civilians. These are people who have seen comrades get their soul ripped out on them and then turn on the next person in line as an undead. People who have stood their ground as 100000 demons poured out of a portal from hell to take their city. Who razed their homeland because it was full of the walking corpses of their family.

    Marines come back from a tour of duty with PTSD because they saw their friends killed by a IED, Alliance soldiers return to the front after seeing their friends eaten by undead.
    So true. The marines couldn't hold a candle to the Alliance army. That Nyxis86 apparently hasn't been in a real war, pushed into it as a young unarmed civilian, and thinks that the immense slaughter is fun and a reason to have ''fond memories'', or how much psychological strength you need to have to return to the front even more determined. Ironically he sounds just like what he describes - likes too many action movies, and ''real war practices'' apparently include only butchering those that are weaker than you. The entire US has never seen a real war in all of it's 150 year history.

  7. #127
    Alliance would win. Magic over bullets.
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  8. #128
    Dreadlord glowzone's Avatar
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    Doesn't the alliance have everything those marines would have.
    Guns, check.
    Explosives, check.
    Air support, check.
    Tanks, check.
    Now to be fair I don't think you can compare a gryphon rider with a stealth bomber, but geez.

    And anyone who says magic wouldn't help is not paying attention to warcraft magic, from giant barriers that could deflect close to any incoming fire to floating cities, magic has little limits, I'm sure one mage would find one way or the other to back that army into a corner.

  9. #129
    Against US marines, sure. No problem. Against some special forces on the other hand, that might be a battle worth watching.

  10. #130
    Mechagnome Sterilize's Avatar
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    Meh. Marines wouldn't stand a chance against elemental powers. Yeah, grenades may disperse a frost or earth elemental temporarily, but they'll just fuel air and fire. Toss in druidic manipulation of the flora for entangle/roots... maybe a typhoon or hurricane for good measure and they marines are toast before the actual soldiers have to even engage.
    Undefined animosity is a device of the spineless, the means of a fool.

  11. #131
    How much ammo does the marines have?

    If they got enough bullets to plaster the incoming horde, then they might win.

    If they run out of main weapon ammo, then they gotta try melee and alliance wow npcs would actually be able to use some of their stuff to dominate.

    1 marine gotta kill 50 npcs. Long-range probably to avoid arrows, muskets and fireballs coming their way. Whatever number of bulllets hit the npcs of the bullets fired and kill. A changing percentage is continuously reviving. Some of the npcs might have armor that stop the bullets from hitting flesh. Might take several repeated hits to kill some of the more heavy armored npcs.


    A couple of boxes of ammo each marine and I think those npcs might be falling. Some marines would probably be taken out.

    Depends also on what type of weapon the marines have. If it is set up as in a normal squad perhaps, that I know nothing of, then some would be carrying LMG's. LMG + loads and loads of ammo, say hello to npc meat.
    Last edited by Tenver; 2012-04-10 at 10:55 AM.

  12. #132
    The Lightbringer vian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akamurdoch View Post
    your profile picture always makes me nervous, what film/character is he from ? so damn creepy.
    It's Marlon Brando in The Godfather, just before he puts that piece orange in his mouth : )
    Quote Originally Posted by bizzy View Post
    yeh but lava is just very hot water

  13. #133
    The Lightbringer shise's Avatar
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    Alliance win.

    Some discipline priests shielding and poping up their bubbles/PoM, another bunch of them raid aoe healing, resto druids setting up HoT's and a few other classes reducing the raid damage, that would make bullets useless for a long time.

    In that time, send a bunch of prot warriors against them, with their shields and CD's they'll manage to reach them and stun them, whilst and behind the warriors a bunch of rogues and other kind of melee dps nuke the hell out of the cc'ed soldiers. Once they are up they won't be able to "nuke" the area, they'd kill themselves. A bunch of hunters will be attacking from a far distance and warlocks will be chain fearing the ones who could actually nuke down the healers and range dps.

    In case the soldiers didn't die out of that first attempt, you always have a bunch of retri palas who'll simply pop their bubbles and kill them all.


    Game mechanics = real life mechanics, if you take one out then humans can't one shot you neither

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Cluster View Post
    Against US marines, sure. No problem. Against some special forces on the other hand, that might be a battle worth watching.
    Only if the number were equal would it be a hypothetical battle worth watching. 100vs100 or 5000vs5000. 50 Alliance units from WC3 (that's what an Alliance army looks like) would decimate the marines. But as Sterilize said (above), elemental powers would quickly turn a battle into a no brainer, even if there are Special Forces (which are still only human) in the battle.

  15. #135
    Scarab Lord Chonar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volta View Post
    The entire US has never seen a real war in all of it's 150 year history.
    Playing devil's advocate here, but isn't that a bit harsh lad? The far-off lands those guys have fought in in service for their country have had their own share of war horrors. To say the things that've happened there arent a "real" war seems a bit disrespectful towards those that've lost their lives there, and those that've lost friends and comrades.

    European here, so am not a 'support the troops no matter what' zealot, just trying to be sensible.

    "Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my comrade." - Albert Camus

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Chonar View Post
    Playing devil's advocate here, but isn't that a bit harsh lad? The far-off lands those guys have fought in in service for their country have had their own share of war horrors. To say the things that've happened there arent a "real" war seems a bit disrespectful towards those that've lost their lives there, and those that've lost friends and comrades.

    European here, so am not a 'support the troops no matter what' zealot, just trying to be sensible.
    The wars they fought were the wars they started themselves, for all sorts of reasons under all sorts of excuses. I cannot hold sympathy for someone that justifies any war. ''In service of their country'' is nothing honorable, it's actually disgusting to me. There is no ''terror'' to fight, that's all fiction, fairytales for idiots, insulting for a thinking human being. They are completely convinced that they are doing something good, which is horrifying. They deify the army as that's the way that it's supposed to be, that the world simply cannot work without wars, and that the army is the reason that you should feel -proud-. I refuse to think and act on such primitive levels which suggest that all you need to do in life is be violent, get b**ches, bump yourself on the chest and roar and feel proud about yourself for doing so. This topic has been created with the same mindset - pitching *only* 100 US marines (as they are godlike and imba and unstoppable and cool and awesome) against the fictional army of 5 -thousand- hardened warriors and sorcerers which saw a decent amount of horrors in their story, and attempt to make such a huge number look like ants regardless of applied logic. I cannot hold sympathy for someone that feels proud about war, when the only thing that it leaves in a rational human being is a bad taste in his mouth and a feeling of disgust and disappointment for his fellow humans.

    Fictional warfare is fun, bringing real war ''achievements'' into the picture is another story.

  17. #137
    Scarab Lord Chonar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volta View Post
    <A lot of true stuff>
    Whoa there champ. Preaching to the choir, trust me. I'm hearin' what you're saying. But this isnt about whether or not those wars are fought for a just cause.

    How "real" a war is isn't defined by how just the cause is. When you sign those papers to serve your country, not everyone can take the moral highground by denying to serve when they're called upon for argueably the wrong reasons. I think that's considered treason.

    Try and feel for the individual man. They're still simple, fallible humans like you and I, and they died in a way you wouldnt want to die, yourself.

    "Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my comrade." - Albert Camus

  18. #138
    Mechagnome DragonSoul's Avatar
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    us marines wont win they suck ass most of em would get fried by warlock aoe and mage frost aoe

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Chonar View Post
    Whoa there champ. Preaching to the choir, trust me. I'm hearin' what you're saying. But this isnt about whether or not those wars are fought for a just cause.

    How "real" a war is isn't defined by how just the cause is. When you sign those papers to serve your country, not everyone can take the moral highground by denying to serve when they're called upon for argueably the wrong reasons. I think that's considered treason.

    Try and feel for the individual man. They're still simple, fallible humans like you and I, and they died in a way you wouldnt want to die, yourself.
    People who choose their own wars, time/place, all the possible advantages often don't understand the real nature of the war, certainly not when they get home thinking they ''did good''. And that's all fine and dandy, there's alot of different people in the world, I can't change that and right now that's how it is. But what I have a problem with are people that drop into this kinds of threads (as is the individual that I was referring to in the first post you quoted from me) who state that ''they were an army-man RAWR'' and who ''know this stuff better than us, that they are pro's and that it was awesome while they were''. I'm allergic to those kinds of people. I feel for the individuals in wars, and most of them were duped into going to one, I can't blame a man for not thinking clearly that far ahead of ''what they could get into'', tough luck. Some were forced, some were baited into it with all sorts of promises (high salaries / houses / payed bills / their spouse gets to have anything he/she desires etc.), and some believed it was something more than it is. But how can someone act high and mighty for killing someone? They call it ''defeating the enemy'' but it's just manslaughter. When it comes to this topic that attitude just irks me.

    We can all stick to fantasy and have fun, but just don't brag about serving the army and preach what a wonderful time you had there (not you in particular, I'm saying this in a general way). P.S cheers for making me step on the brake :P

  20. #140
    Fun part about this as the marines should be using superior tactics.. since there are horrible overpowered by stuff they have no control over... tactics against an enemy where the leaders have been fighting for 10000years.. sorry but better tactics goes to guy´s fighting for century´s to millenia´s.. ofcourse not all of the regular people there spent that much time alive-learning.. but you very certainly can say the ones in charge are much better suited to create better tactics.. especially since they are experienced against a much wider range of enemies..

    the marines can use fear tactics.. but would require that they are fighting scrubs who can't do anything.. not soldiers who experienced real horrors.. hell again the allience army has much better feats in controlling fear then marines..

    also mobility goes to allience army.. did you ever see the original night elf trailer.. where she is running through the forest stealthed?? no human alive can match that pace and certainly not while not making a sound or be undetected.. then you also have mages who can just teleport where they want.. you have hunters with hawks who can have airborne surviellence.. hell hunter can track the entire army very very easily..

    the only advantage i can see that the marines have is long range firepower.. they can snipe.. but they will never be able to take out 5000 soldiers like that.. since a single hawk is enough to spot them.. maybe/very likely from even beyond the range of snipers.. and a sniper with a compromised position is a dead sniper..

    also about the guy saying to control 5000 civilians the best case is to shoot one of them.. you are making several mistakes.. first assuming nobody has a bond with the person you shot(which will create a bloodlusted mob)... or there is a person who can activly rouse up the mob(again bloodlust can overwrite survival).. no this tactic is a maybe at best.. and can go horribly wrong.. you wouldn't use this unless you are prepared for a worst case of haveing to shoot all of them..

    ofcourse this entire tactics will fail against soldiers who would just see it as a first blow and then unleash massive waves relation fire..

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