Pseudo science.

[Kasierith]

An excellent example of why pseudo-sciences gain so much traction. When enough people say the same thing and have enough titles added to their names others are very willing to believe it without question. Its a lemming effect. Religions, the catholic church specifically has been involved with refuting, even criminalizing and punishing real scientists for over a millennium, choose your topic and you'll find example after example so don't reject truth over minutia.
The weather hasn't varied significantly since accurate records have been kept, you just get TOLD it has because we live in a 24 hr news cycle that needs more stories. Climatology IS a science, not all climatologists believe in the myth of human caused climate change, therefore the PSEUDO-science is in fact correctly described as climate change science. Meteorology is a science as well but they can't accurately predict the weather further than a few days because the systems they study are too large to account for the variables. Yet, climate change scientists claim to be able to predict the entire earth's climate for the next 100 years.

When did I ever say that the Church wasn't? Did you even read what I said? I pointed out that you very, very erroneously stated that the Church taught the world was flat. That has nothing to do with credentials, or with the concept of an intellectual hierarchy. In addition, the blank statement that the Church as a whole held back science entirely is inaccurate... the Church was responsible for the storing of a massive amount of knowledge from before the Dark Ages. They are responsible for us having access to writings and works from civilizations such as the Romans and Greeks apart from the physical evidence left behind.. and even then, they worked hard to preserve historical sites in many situations. They also had a hand in the ability for a multitude of nations to coexist in relative peace as independent parties for many, many years by limiting warfare among European nations, which allowed the establishment of cultural integrity. Don't label something as wrong just because you don't understand the full story.

You're talking about conspiracy theories, not objective thinking. Referring to your previous statement, "Most of the data is completely fabricated and the peer review process is completely corrupt." And explain, please, how the application of climatology to CO2 emissions is a pseudoscience? They gather evidence, they present evidence, they reveal how they got it, they attempt to maintain full transparency when presenting their findings to others. You can disagree with the interpretations of the data, but they present it, and they give logical reasoning for it. That is not the markings of a pseudoscience. Also, there's a difference between a predicted trajectory and a prediction of what everything will be like for 100 years

[Orestis]

I think a lot of it has to do with the prevalence of New-Age beliefs, coupled with a strong presence of anti-scientific nonsense all over the Internet. Many people can't recognize bullshit when they see it, and aren't scientifically well-educated enough to make informed decisions.

Well said. Testimonials are a dangerous thing! Every advertisement you see has someone, usually labelled as a certified something, or a well recognized person... pushing some product.

Even at my gym I get people asking me what kind of supplements I take, I tell them just protein powder, as I keep on top of my diet (vitamins/nutrients and overall calories). I see them a week later and they are suddenly on board with the protein I am taking, having done no research for themselves... You try to fill them in with more info, and they are so focused on the single thing they block out everything else.

Anyway, it all goes with lack of education. You must take it upon yourself to research something before putting it into your body. With so many misinformed and misleading sources out there, that task becomes incredibly difficult.

Some friends of mine, an older couple, recently had been seeing a "nutritionist" for health advice. They had been spending buttloads of money on supplements and the appointments... little did they know, that in this state (Washington), anyone can call themselves a nutritionist... and this person was just robbing them. They didn't do the research and they paid for it.

[RaoBurning]

My friend has been almost perpetually sick for a long time. She had pneumonia once and was misdiagnosed by her doctor at the time (a typical doctor, not a woo meister). Since clearing that up, she's been seeing a Chiropractor for any-and-everything wrong with her. Runny nose, allergies, everything. He has her convinced that there's a bone flipped in her skull - not just tweaked a bit, but flipped upside down. Her head looks and feels just fine. I'm not a MD, but that sounds like bullshit.

Likewise, he has her doing this "body talk" thing where she holds food or medicine (wrapped or in a bottle is fine) and she wiggles a bit to see if her body needs it or not. Shit like this kills people. Her chiropractor also advocates a system whose designer claims can cure colorblindness with spinal adjustments, and that's probably the least asinine claim on the list.

She's an engineer, and damn clever, so she's not stupid under normal circumstances. Coincidentally, however, she does come from a highly religious family, I believe making her more susceptible to "magical thinking" and woo-peddling. She's also a fan of "The Secret." I worry about her following such blatant bullshit - the chiropractor, that is - and it's effect on her health, but I'm not sure how to bring it up to her. Hopefully her new insurance just won't cover the con man and she'll have to see a real doctor.

To the main point at hand: Real science wins because it works, and when the glamor of whatever fad piece of bullshit is over and people want real results, they always come to the real science. Pseudoscience stays alive because it tastes better than real medicine, and inevitably there will be people who want the easy way out instead of the way that is veritably accurate and has the greatest set of evidential support.

Even if the occasional scientist has to be put to death or placed under permanent house arrest to get things through people's thick skulls. Even if the Catholic church didn't deny the shape of the Earth, they sure as hell put up a fight against the heliocentric model.

[Height]

I think oil is highly politicized and we wind up getting misconstrued data on climate science. Now, this doesn't mean I think global warming isn't real. Most climate scientists (97%) or whatever, actually say it is. It isn't just our government saying this either. I understand people's fears of tax credits (etc.), but it doesn't stop it from existing. And whether or not it's man caused, man does have an effect on their environment on a micro level and I'm sure on a macro. Whoever came up with global warming is a genius really. It makes people think more about their environment and really that alone helps. We DO need to change our habits like we mean it.

[Vaengence]

Wow some weirding with posts - first my posts was double posted and so I edited the second one to remove the first section now the first post is gone >.> I will just leave the second part cause I do not feel like trying to retype it all.

---------- Post added 2012-04-12 at 02:47 AM ----------

[/COLOR]

Most climate scientists (97%) or whatever, actually say it is.

Be careful, this is another example of manipulation.

This link: http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/...lobal-warming/

Is a good read if you want to see what I am talking about and is a good eye opener for those that take some of this information from the media as "gospel". I am not intending to convince you otherwise just suggest people question what they read and not assume things.

[Powerogue]

Why do you think pseudo science is constantly given so much respect over conventional science?


Personally I attribute this reverence to pseudo science because it's easier to understand. It's less work and often less initially expensive. A bottle of these supplements is maybe twenty euro, my doctor visit was quite a bit more.

that sounds about right to me. If people would rather believe in magic, and the snake oil salesman comes over offering magic, people will buy it, and the problem propagates itself.

the placebo effect is amazing, isn't it?

[Deleted]

People will believe whatever they want to believe, no matter if it's real or not.

[Extrazero8]

Why do you think pseudo science is constantly given so much respect over conventional science?

But what do you think? Why do people give so much rope to pseudo science?

And let's be clear: Herbalism can be science, but many branches of it are nonsense, e.g. homeopathy

Because people want it to work. They will ignore the misses and only hold on to the hits.

[Julian Rayne]

Even Dr. Oz is guilty of this. He makes plenty of unfounded claims that are circulated because people are desperate for them to work.

Dr. Oz is one of Oprah's lapdogs. Anything spawned from her is not just pseudoscience but anti-science.

[Eroginous]

Why do you think pseudo science is constantly given so much respect over conventional science?

I most recently experienced this with dieting. I'm currently on my "healthy" diet cycle, I consulted with a registered doctor who is also a nutritionist. We sat down and I told him what I'd like to achieve in terms of body fat and muscle mass and made out a plan according to my needs (he took bloods, heart rate, BP etc).

I however know someone on a new diet for the summer, taking these very odd "natural" supplements. They apparently harness the power of something or other, in conjunction with a raw food diet. She's very much into "alternative medicine" and the such. Apparently her local herbalist gave her some information.

Personally I attribute this reverence to pseudo science because it's easier to understand. It's less work and often less initially expensive. A bottle of these supplements is maybe twenty euro, my doctor visit was quite a bit more.

But what do you think? Why do people give so much rope to pseudo science?

And let's be clear: Herbalism can be science, but many branches of it are nonsense, e.g. homeopathy

Let me put it to you this way, which sounds better?

- I went to the doctor and mapped out an extensive diet plan to manage my weight going into the summer.

- I went to my herbalist and got some supplements that will power my metabolism through the summer.

There's really no contest, people want the 'cool/hip' solution, even if it doesn't actually work as well in comparison to the conventional methods.

[Kasierith]

Let me put it to you this way, which sounds better?

- I went to the doctor and mapped out an extensive diet plan to manage my weight going into the summer.

- I went to my herbalist and got some supplements that will power my metabolism through the summer.

There's really no contest, people want the 'cool/hip' solution, even if it doesn't actually work as well in comparison to the conventional methods.

While that may be true... its also important not to be tunnel visioned by whats currently available through modern medicine. Modern medicine is by no means complete; there are many gaps in it still, especially from the focus of patient-oriented treatment as opposed to disease state approach. And just because something isn't synthesized and packaged as pills doesn't mean it doesn't work... acetaminophen was first made by the ancient Egyptians, long before they had our chemical knowledge. Chinese traditional medicine follows a strict formulary for how to use natural products with certain conditions, that in some areas is just as effective as western medication, and in some areas better because it also focuses a great deal on mental and emotional health as well as physical. And if you look at thyroid treatment... if you put someone on a medication for hypothyroidism, they're often required to be on it for life as their naturally produced TSH will shut down due to the presence of the medication. Approaching it from a supplement perspective, however, can sometimes re balance the hormone levels in terms of the feedback pathways, helping their condition without having to resort to a lifetime of treatment.

Yes, there are many bad products out there (St. John's Wart is among the most horrendous products out there and has led to quite a large number of deaths, for example), but not all alternative medicine is bad

[nixcookies]

Yes, there are many bad products out there (St. John's Wart is among the most horrendous products out there and has led to quite a large number of deaths, for example), not all alternative medicine is bad

That is the drug that's suppose to help depression right? Out of curiosity does it work or it complete hokum?

[hellosaltygoodness]

i definitely agree with the "pseudoscience" when it comes to medicine. unless its some sort of critical illness or something requiring surgery, i always consult my huge "alternative medicine" textbook whenever an illness comes up, and doing so has saved me a frigging boatload of money over the years. hell only two weeks i got an ailment that a doctor would have prescribed me a pill that cost 25 bucks and had a million side effects. instead i spent three dollars at the grocery store on a natural food product and was happily cured. i can't stand the medical establishment anymore, they are a bunch of greedy shills who pump you with unnatural products, discourage you from taking any ownership over your own health so you remain completely dependent on them, and silence any doctors who dare to speak out.

[Kasierith]

That is the drug that's suppose to help depression right? Out of curiosity does it work or it complete hokum?

Eh.. there's a slight effect, not enough to be statistically significant. There's a problem where if you're taking it because a physician refused to prescribe antidepressants, chances are its behavioral depression instead of physiological, and therefore just having a placebo can help and can thus skew the results up. The big problem with St. John's Wart is that it causes you to rapidly metabolize drugs and clear them from your body. So that beta blocker that keeps your heart from going too fast to pump blood that was supposed to last you the entire day might last you two hours, leaving your heart vulnerable for a long period of time. Because it affects your body in that way, pretty much anyone who is on a medication for a chronic condition should avoid it like the plague

---------- Post added 2012-04-12 at 05:53 AM ----------

i definitely agree with the "pseudoscience" when it comes to medicine. unless its some sort of critical illness or something requiring surgery, i always consult my huge "alternative medicine" textbook whenever an illness comes up, and doing so has saved me a frigging boatload of money over the years. hell only two weeks i got an ailment that a doctor would have prescribed me a pill that cost 25 bucks and had a million side effects. instead i spent three dollars at the grocery store on a natural food product and was happily cured. i can't stand the medical establishment anymore, they are a bunch of greedy shills who pump you with unnatural products, discourage you from taking any ownership over your own health so you remain completely dependent on them, and silence any doctors who dare to speak out.

Many drugs are derived from their physiological counterparts in the human body. For example, anakinra (Kineret), which competitively binds interleukin-1 receptors, is a recombination form of interleukin-1 receptor antagonist, which is produced naturally by our bodies to limit the affects of inflammation associated with IL-1. How is something that was directly derived from our own bodies and how we naturally function any less natural than compounding massive concentrations of certain raw nutrients, forcing them into a tiny pill in an amount that you would never, ever find in nature, and using that?

[Extrazero8]

i definitely agree with the "pseudoscience" when it comes to medicine. unless its some sort of critical illness or something requiring surgery, i always consult my huge "alternative medicine" textbook whenever an illness comes up, and doing so has saved me a frigging boatload of money over the years. hell only two weeks i got an ailment that a doctor would have prescribed me a pill that cost 25 bucks and had a million side effects. instead i spent three dollars at the grocery store on a natural food product and was happily cured. i can't stand the medical establishment anymore, they are a bunch of greedy shills who pump you with unnatural products, discourage you from taking any ownership over your own health so you remain completely dependent on them, and silence any doctors who dare to speak out.

Wait... what was your ailment and what did you not take? Also, that thing you did not take, what natural food product replaced it?

Edit: Not to be rude, but by not pulling out your huge alternative medicine textbook when you have a critical issue does that mean you don't really trust it?

[Deleted]

It's a matter of belief that has evidence based on hear say, imagionation and wishful thinking. It's not hard to figure out something and claim it to be "fact" just because there simply ain't ways (yet) to debunk them.





+

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKxLmdBzS10

[Eroginous]

While that may be true... its also important not to be tunnel visioned by whats currently available through modern medicine. Modern medicine is by no means complete; there are many gaps in it still, especially from the focus of patient-oriented treatment as opposed to disease state approach. And just because something isn't synthesized and packaged as pills doesn't mean it doesn't work... acetaminophen was first made by the ancient Egyptians, long before they had our chemical knowledge. Chinese traditional medicine follows a strict formulary for how to use natural products with certain conditions, that in some areas is just as effective as western medication, and in some areas better because it also focuses a great deal on mental and emotional health as well as physical. And if you look at thyroid treatment... if you put someone on a medication for hypothyroidism, they're often required to be on it for life as their naturally produced TSH will shut down due to the presence of the medication. Approaching it from a supplement perspective, however, can sometimes re balance the hormone levels in terms of the feedback pathways, helping their condition without having to resort to a lifetime of treatment.

Yes, there are many bad products out there (St. John's Wart is among the most horrendous products out there and has led to quite a large number of deaths, for example), but not all alternative medicine is bad

Here's the thing though, I'm generally going to trust someone who's backed by the peer review of science and medicine, who's spent an extensive amount of time studying medical treatments and gotten a certificate for it, over someone who might as well be called a drug dealer.

No offense, but modern science and medicine is light years ahead of what it was back when the egyptians discovered acetametophin. Now we can take your ass and sculpt it into your face, grafting it on to replace skin you lost as a burn victim. I'd rather go to that doctor than a guy who would suggest a maize poultice as a remedy for everything under the sun.

[Cerathas]

Why do you think pseudo science is constantly given so much respect over conventional science?

I most recently experienced this with dieting. I'm currently on my "healthy" diet cycle, I consulted with a registered doctor who is also a nutritionist. We sat down and I told him what I'd like to achieve in terms of body fat and muscle mass and made out a plan according to my needs (he took bloods, heart rate, BP etc).

I however know someone on a new diet for the summer, taking these very odd "natural" supplements. They apparently harness the power of something or other, in conjunction with a raw food diet. She's very much into "alternative medicine" and the such. Apparently her local herbalist gave her some information.

Personally I attribute this reverence to pseudo science because it's easier to understand. It's less work and often less initially expensive. A bottle of these supplements is maybe twenty euro, my doctor visit was quite a bit more.

But what do you think? Why do people give so much rope to pseudo science?

And let's be clear: Herbalism can be science, but many branches of it are nonsense, e.g. homeopathy

Interesting topic. I would say certainly that people in modern industrialized nations tend to look for a quick/cheap/easy/etc fix. That's certainly one issue. Ironically they seem to forget that a ground up root and the local tribal shaman doing a WooWoo dance over you is what people get in the non-industrialized world. Do they really think those people have better health outcomes? But I digress...

I live in America. There is no modern country on Earth with a love of superstitious, crystal gripping, snake oil, bullshit to rival this one. The answer to your question (at least here in America) is education. I don't mean how to do their multiplication tables either. I mean educating people in HOW they should think. The methods of skepticism are all but unknown here. On a near daily basis I see university educated individuals make statements which clearly illustrate their complete ignorance of the scientific method, and rational empiricism.

I myself am an ardent skeptic, and a researcher in the field of Biology. Everything for me is basically, "Proof or it didn't happen". So I'm sure you can imagine how interesting it can be living in the middle of the central Texas intellectual wasteland.

Bottom Line: Rational thought is, for most, a lost art.

[hellosaltygoodness]

Many drugs are derived from their physiological counterparts in the human body. For example, anakinra (Kineret), which competitively binds interleukin-1 receptors, is a recombination form of interleukin-1 receptor antagonist, which is produced naturally by our bodies to limit the affects of inflammation associated with IL-1. How is something that was directly derived from our own bodies and how we naturally function any less natural than compounding massive concentrations of certain raw nutrients, forcing them into a tiny pill in an amount that you would never, ever find in nature, and using that?

the problem with what you just said is that you are misinformed of what alternative medicine is.... "as seen on tv" pills manufactured by shady quack jobs is the exact opposite of alternative medicine, the whole point of which is supposed to keep your whole body healthy so that you don't need to take pills.

Wait... what was your ailment and what did you not take? Also, that thing you did not take, what natural food product replaced it?

Edit: Not to be rude, but by not pulling out your huge alternative medicine textbook when you have a critical issue does that mean you don't really trust it?

it was something i don't want to discuss in a public forum o.O

and no it doesn't mean i don't trust it, it means i know what the strengths and weaknesses of both systems are, and when one is a more appropriate venue than the other. alternative medicine is far superior at improving overall longterm health and curing non-serious ailments, and western medicine is far superior at quick fixes in emergencies. there simply is no "alternative medicine" method of surgery, for example.

[grayscale-warfare]

First of all it is "pseudoscience" not "pseudo science". (It makes a huge difference.)

I think the main reason is that scientists often don't communicate well with those who are not scientists. Even medical doctors who deal with patients will rarely explain reasons behind an illness or a treatment fully, most of the time the patient will not know what is going on.

Those who practice pseudoscience however are NOT scientists (obviously). Because their whole existence depends on people believing in them and their practice, they tend to make people believe in them by explaining things in the common language something that many scientists fail to do so.

Exactly. This is pseudoscience. Sociology as taught in American universities is a pseudo science.