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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by llandrywyn View Post
    "If Ji Firepaw is a flirtatious, bordering on sexist, lecherous old panda, what benefit does it have to his story?"


    "If a character can be conveyed in the same terms, for the same overall feeling and with the same overall character traits, is it not just good and respectful practice for the designers to minimise content that might offend?"
    You see, I'd like to live in a world where little things like this weren't blown out of proportion. But I know that's a pipe dream.

    There's a female goblin quest-giver whose comments I (as a guy) found amusing, but which the person who started this whole debacle would have blown a gasket over:

    Hey there, handsome! I've had my eye on those big, beefy biceps ever since you stepped into town.
    Listen, I've got something for you to do. I hear Gar'Thok's got you headed over to Tiragarde. While you're there, think you could find some abandoned Kul Tiras knicknacks?
    Thanks sweetie!
    Should I get offended by that? I guess I should, since it's demeaning to men...

    Here's what she says to female player-characters:

    What're you looking at, ugly? I've seen you walking around Razor Hill, trying to steal MY men from me!
    Listen, I've got something for you to do. I hear Gar'Thok's got you headed over to Tiragarde. While you're there, think you could find some abandoned Kul Tiras knicknacks?
    Don't ask why, just get to it!
    Where was the uproar over that? Why does the poor pandaman get discriminated against?

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by crabmousse View Post
    perhaps I am short-sighted but I'm just not willing to accept that legislation will ever make a genuine change. take the emancipation proclamation, or the civil rights movement in America; these brought about amazing change but also a particularly defensive attitude in white America which seems to have solidified racism on a fundamental level in their society.
    But clearly you don't care about the non-white racism in our country? Oh that's right, that doesn't exist does it...

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by crabmousse View Post
    perhaps I am short-sighted but I'm just not willing to accept that legislation will ever make a genuine change. take the emancipation proclamation, or the civil rights movement in America; these brought about amazing change but also a particularly defensive attitude in white America which seems to have solidified racism on a fundamental level in their society.
    And now the thread is going to be about comparing the proclamation and gender inequality. I think we're done here.

  4. #164
    Scarab Lord GreatOak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crabmousse View Post
    and I'm sure you prefer it that way so you can continue to complain how hard it is to be a white, western male. my heart bleeds.
    Cool projection there.

    Never punish individuals for things they cannot control. It's not their fault they benefit. Hell. I'm a bisexual black dude with a severe disability. I dont ask for aid from others who had no part in my situation. Just stop being sensitive to non issues. Attack those who are actively attacking women in the middle east and Africa.


    We have to learn together, and "positive" discrimination is still discrimination.

    http://www.aswedeingermany.de/60Misc/50Privilege.html

    Read this if you aren't blind to logical arguments. Otherwise you will continue to be hateful and self confirming

  5. #165
    Dreadlord thundercles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crabmousse View Post

    I have not demonised anyone posting here, don't be so lazy and talk to me.
    I disagree with your opinion that this line was sexist. But, because I am male, you brush that off as me being simply incapable of recognizing or understanding sexism.

    You are a bigot.

  6. #166
    Alright guys, I have a request. Can we keep the tone down to a reasonable level? I don't want to see this thread get locked over a few hot headed comments. Would be much appreciated.

  7. #167
    so much butthurt in this thread
    I am Dave ! Yognaught, and I have the balls!

  8. #168
    Fluffy Kitten Aciaedius's Avatar
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    Was there even any outrage about it? I didn't see any.

    I'm just asking since it's so common these days to assume any change one dislikes was due to a "vocal minority moral panic", since it's a very convenient strawman to draw when you want to look oppressed. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, I'm just asking if there even were any complaints about it. I didn't see them, but I could have missed them.
    PvE:er to the bone. Plays a druid. Also plays DotA and a whole bunch of other stuff. Listens to mostly everything.
    "We actually contracted out the creation of the equally-epic-yet-non-loot-dropping-non-boss mobs in Throne of Thunder to a giant snail. I think he did a pretty good job."
    - Blue Q&A

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Cool projection there.

    Never punish individuals for things they cannot control. It's not their fault they benefit. Hell. I'm a bisexual black dude with a severe disability. I dont ask for aid from others who had no part in my situation. Just stop being sensitive to non issues. Attack those who are actively attacking women in the middle east and Africa.


    We have to learn together, and "positive" discrimination is still discrimination.

    http://www.aswedeingermany.de/60Misc/50Privilege.html

    Read this if you aren't blind to logical arguments. Otherwise you will continue to be hateful and self confirming
    Sir, I love you. You are a hero.

  10. #170
    Pit Lord Urti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thundercles View Post
    I disagree with your opinion that this line was sexist. But, because I am male, you brush that off as me being simply incapable of recognizing or understanding sexism.

    You are a bigot.
    A bigot of the worst kind. One who hides behind the silhouette of a victim.
    "Stop being a giant trolling asshole." - Boubouille
    "The Internet is built on complaints about asinine things" - prefect
    "Facts became discussable when critical thinking stopped being the focus of education."- Chonogo
    "Sometimes people confuse "We Don't Understand This Yet" with "Ooga Booga Space Magic" - Chazus

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Urti View Post
    Not when it comes from selectively ignoring factual evidence. Then it's called a delusion.


    Bullshit. You can't lump me into target group you hate, and then retroactively make the boo-boo go away with an invitation to the "entitled victims" club. Everything I got today I earned in SPITE of being a white male, not because of it. That's the fact, whether it fits into your childish little worldview or not. Your average white male has a LOT more in common with me than with Gordon Gecko, despite your idea that all WASPy men are ultra-rich, evil, Banker-barons.



    No, but it does involve equality issues, and THAT makes it relevant. Stop trying to marginalize a case that is 180 degrees from what you wrongfully assume is the norm.
    I am ignoring no factual evidence, this is an idealogical and subjective discussion. I am not making any kind of 180, 'white western man' has a weight and connotations based on the majority position. classism is a different subject, whether you choose to belief I apply a class value to 'white western man' or not is irrelevant to me, but do you really think I would be so vigorously anti-sexist and anti-racist but also be casually classist? there is poverty and social degredation of the worst kind where I come from, I am not so naive that I think it's a kind of priveledge. take it or leave it, it's not relevant to this discussion.

  12. #172
    Dreadlord OGXanos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alewen View Post
    Alright guys, I have a request. Can we keep the tone down to a reasonable level? I don't want to see this thread get locked over a few hot headed comments. Would be much appreciated.
    agreed this is about Ji, not your worldview. Take those arguments elsewhere please.

  13. #173
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alewen View Post
    We all know about that one infamous line of his. "Wow you are some kind of gorgeous aren't you? I can tell we are going to be good friends!".

    Well because a few people for some odd reason got offended at being flirted with by an NPC, Blizzard took that unique npc and nerfed him down to be just like the other stale NPC's. He now says "You seem poised and ready. I can tell we are going to be good friends."

    Sorry but that just seems wrong to me. NPC's need to have more life to them. They need to stand out in the world. Ji no longer stands out. He is just another questgiver with almost no personality. It's shameful that they would listen to a few people who were offended over nothing to change him like that.
    How did changing one line remove the rest of his personality?


    Frankly, I was kind of Embarassed by Ji initially, I certainly wouldn't have wanted that to be the first thing the Horde representative Pandaren said, it was a bit forward.


    He hasn't stopped being flirtatious or impulsive in the rest of his dialogue or quests, he's still the same character.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  14. #174
    So, who thinks there would be no complaints if Thrall was hitting on every guy that passed by?

    What I saw was not people complaining about it being sexist, but about the dialogue feeling a bit creepy (in no small part because of poor writing). Would it make anyone quit? Probably not, but that doesn't mean leaving the dialogue intact would have been a good choice. Much like having an ugly tier set. Wouldn't make anyone quit, but wouldn't be optimal.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by crabmousse View Post
    perhaps I am short-sighted but I'm just not willing to accept that legislation will ever make a genuine change.
    People love the law. Giving women the legal right to vote alone brought forth massive changes in the society.
    Both women and men, black and white, are discriminated in various areas of life. This will not change during our lifetime. Things like this take a long time to change. They are like seeds planted in the people that need to grow.

    We need to give each other equal possibilities as individuals, not fight each other. You seem to be treating men in general as enemies. That is a point of view that I do not understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by crabmousse View Post
    take the emancipation proclamation, or the civil rights movement in America; these brought about amazing change but also a particularly defensive attitude in white America which seems to have solidified racism on a fundamental level in their society.
    Part of the people are always against change. That doesn't stop it from happening.


    I will no longer be taking part in this discussion.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    But clearly you don't care about the non-white racism in our country? Oh that's right, that doesn't exist does it...
    sure it does. is it particular brand of racism that requires the most immediate action? not if you ask me.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Aciaedius View Post
    Was there even any outrage about it? I didn't see any.

    I'm just asking since it's so common these days to assume any change one dislikes was due to a "vocal minority moral panic", since it's a very convenient strawman to draw when you want to look oppressed. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, I'm just asking if there even were any complaints about it. I didn't see them, but I could have missed them.
    I doubt there was outrage, but there was a bit of a fuss made about it. This is the first thread I saw (don't know if there were more as I don't go to the official forums much anymore):

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4253904851

  18. #178
    I just wanted to jump in and thank you to the people who DO get why this change is pretty rad, and why it doesn't really change Ji's character. Thank you Crabmousse, btw, for being a cool person.

    Also thanks for all the MMOC people who think I'm awful!

  19. #179
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post

    Where was the uproar over that? Why does the poor pandaman get discriminated against?
    Because he's the effective 'faction leader' of Horde pandaren, a representative, rather than a one off questgiver.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  20. #180
    Dreadlord OGXanos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSRilk View Post
    So, who thinks there would be no complaints if Thrall was hitting on every guy that passed by?

    What I saw was not people complaining about it being sexist, but about the dialogue feeling a bit creepy (in no small part because of poor writing). Would it make anyone quit? Probably not, but that doesn't mean leaving the dialogue intact would have been a good choice. Much like having an ugly tier set. Wouldn't make anyone quit, but wouldn't be optimal.
    Hrrm maybe he's supposed to be a "creepy" type cause he doesn't know better? Cause that's what i picked up on with his conversations with Aysa and his dialogue about her to you. Let the 'creepy' panda do his thing, it's his personality and at the end of the day it hurts no one but gives everyone something silly to grin about. Its a game people, let it have some flavor.

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