Page 18 of 74 FirstFirst ...
8
16
17
18
19
20
28
68
... LastLast
  1. #341
    Scarab Lord xylophone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    4,172
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Giant post.
    You dun be usin dat common sense, folks 'round here don't take kindly to that sorta fancy pants talk, why don't ye skedaddle?
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Lets say you have a two 3 inch lines. One is all red and the other is 48% red and 52% blue. Does that mean there's a 50-50 chance they're both red or is the second line matching the all red line by 48%?
    ^^^ Wells using an analogy

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by JSG31494 View Post
    Government is the initiation of force. Think about it. Try not paying your taxes. At first you'll let a letter or a phone call saying "Hey, you aren't paying! Pay up!" Next you get a notice to go to court. And after that, police will show up to your house to apprehend you. If you defend yourself, you get gunned down. Government breaks the Non-Aggression Principle (NAP) by initiating force upon it's sheep (citizens). Now you're probably thinking that this is just some teenage pot head trying to rebel against the man. Well I assure you, I believe drugs are immoral as well, however, I do believe you have the right to use them as long as you're not breaking the NAP.

    Next you may say "Well! Without government, who will provide for the poor?" Government actually made the poor people poor, and if anyone did manage to become poor in a stateless society, charity would be provided. Who provides such charities you ask? towns would. Ostracism would be an effective tool. If you don't donate, you miss out on social relationships, don't get a sign on your lawn saying you donated etc. And even if this isn't perfect, is our current system any better?

    "Well, what happens if we're invaded?" Private defense organizations/defense insurance companies would be there! Let us say that the U.S. becomes a stateless society and Canada has a choice to invade us or Russia. Let's say for all intents and purposes they really hate our guts for ripping them off with Maple Syrup tariffs before the collapse of the state. They must get through private defense companies, mercenaries and every single citizen fighting to not be taxed, and enslaved by another government. If Canada invaded Russia, all they would have to do is break down the Russian military, get to Moscow and claim victory. Once this happens, the Russian people don't take up arms against Canadian oppression, they merely switched mafia heads. One leader lost to another leader, it would be no different than a forced election where many people died.

    "Oh, I've got you here! Medical care! How is this going to work?!" Well, the reason medical care is expensive now, is because of government intervention in the system, subsidies, medicare, medicaid, etc. If a doctor in a stateless society wants to charge $20 per patient, he is more than welcome to! If his next door neighbor wants to be a doctor and charge $15 per patient, he will simply get the majority of patients and drive the first doctor to either lower his rates or go out of business. "And what of surgery costs?" Same answer as before, surgeons will lower their rates as much as possible to where they still make a profit but get as many patients as possible. Health insurance will also be 100% privatized.

    "Currency! What will be the currency of a stateless society!?" It doesn't matter. You could trade gold, silver, rocks, spoons or even pens. Whatever the seller wants that buyer will offer in exchange for the product the customer wants.
    "Education is not receivable to most people without a government provided system!" Government has lowered education standards and does not actually teach you much. If you're older than 30 try telling me the integral of cotx. Try telling me the formula for resistance. If you were doing this math in high school, chances are, (unless you became a mathematician or a physicist) that you just regurgitated this information for the test and forgot it after. Real education advances would be made without the government.

    "Well what about courts! For crimes such as murder, theft, or fraud!" Privately run courts would exist, where the defendants and prosecutors would mutually agree to attend, so as to deter corruption. There could be 1 juror or 100, based on a voluntary or salary system. It may not be the absolute perfect system, but is our current one better? Just look at some of the corruption that is going on!

    So, those are the ways anarchism would benefit us, whereas the state not only does not benefit it, it hinders us, enslaves us and attacks us. I advocate an anarchist society, but I want to achieve it nonviolently. Using violence to achieve anarchy will not only fail, but it will just prop up warlords and dictators in an even worse society. Nonviolence, education, and will power are the only way to get rid of the state. I hope that one day we'll realize that we do not need a government to tell us what to do, what to think or what to feel.

    So, If you can come up with another argument that you think the state can solve better than anarchy, please, share it, and I'll post my response. If I have opened anyone's mind or even sparked an interest to anarchism, please search Freedomain Radio on Youtube or Google, and look for Stefan Molyneux, as he does a MUCH better job at explaining the ideal, stateless society! Thanks if you read this all the way through!
    lol, nope.

  3. #343
    Bloodsail Admiral Talokami's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Posts
    1,080
    Quote Originally Posted by xylophone View Post
    You dun be usin dat common sense, folks 'round here don't take kindly to that sorta fancy pants talk, why don't ye skedaddle?
    Welcome to my signature, kind sir!
    That fabric softener teddy bear...oooh I'm 'a hunt that little bitch down.

  4. #344
    Mechagnome Bormes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    IL, USA
    Posts
    523
    I think most people will agree, a little anarchy is necessary to keep those in power in check, it's total anarchy that's a problem.

  5. #345
    Bloodsail Admiral Goatfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    The Stars
    Posts
    1,003
    If you want a government that works we basically need to switch to an Intellocracy or Communism as it is meant to be and not what greedy humans turned it into. Anarchy is not the answer unless you want mass genocide of the idiots and douche-bags in this country followed by thousands of people attempting to re-create an actual government.

    Personally I would be 100% for an Intellocracy where your social status and political sway depended on intelligence and not on how well you can sway the average dumb American to believe your empty promises. Being a good speaker does not always make you a good ruler, want a good example? Go look at King George VI. Or on the other end of the spectrum, look at Obama.

  6. #346
    Scarab Lord xylophone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    4,172
    Quote Originally Posted by Bormes View Post
    I think most people will agree, a little anarchy is necessary to keep those in power in check, it's total anarchy that's a problem.
    Don't think there's such thing as "a little anarchy." You either have anarchy, or you have a system of government. It's like saying you have a little bit of zero.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Lets say you have a two 3 inch lines. One is all red and the other is 48% red and 52% blue. Does that mean there's a 50-50 chance they're both red or is the second line matching the all red line by 48%?
    ^^^ Wells using an analogy

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by xylophone View Post
    Don't think there's such thing as "a little anarchy." You either have anarchy, or you have a system of government. It's like saying you have a little bit of zero.
    I wold say libertarianism is anarchy lite.

  8. #348
    Scarab Lord xylophone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    4,172
    Quote Originally Posted by misspellar View Post
    I wold say libertarianism is anarchy lite.
    Kinda I guess, but libertarianism is just small government, anarchy is absence of government.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Lets say you have a two 3 inch lines. One is all red and the other is 48% red and 52% blue. Does that mean there's a 50-50 chance they're both red or is the second line matching the all red line by 48%?
    ^^^ Wells using an analogy

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by misspellar View Post
    I wold say libertarianism is anarchy lite.
    Libertarianism is Objectivism lite.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  10. #350
    Best Kitten Simca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    9,411
    Quote Originally Posted by UncleSilas View Post
    Ideal scenario based cyclical arguments are like masturbation.

    Interesting topic all that aside. Good luck.
    We already had a thread winner on page 1, apparently. The entire premise for the argument is the same behind the 'true' Communism scenario. Communism would be a great idea if human nature (greed, power, bloodthirst) didn't prevent its final stages.

    Anarchy is basically the same.

    You know what would also be a great idea if humans were good-natured? Democracy. Or theocracy. Or anything ever. Once the people are being rational and not impaired by their instincts, it doesn't matter what type of government it is. It really doesn't.

    The assumptions required to support your outcome are too ridiculous to actually exist and it really baffles me how people think that it could work.
    Global Moderator | Forum Guidelines

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by xylophone View Post
    Kinda I guess, but libertarianism is just small government, anarchy is absence of government.
    Extreme libertarians are about 2 steps from anarchists.

  12. #352
    4 letters.... 1 word.... 4chan. That's anarchy.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-14 at 02:50 AM ----------

    This topic is nonsense. The court system being privatized. That would keep the corruption out... As if I wouldn't pay a judge not to put me in prison. Monopolies would flourish. I don't even have to go on.

  13. #353
    Anarchy might have been able to sustain itself as shown in Iceland in the past but in today's society, it would never work. The world has essentially gone crazy. See the Astrodome I believe it was after Hurricane Katrina. That's anarchy in the modern world.

  14. #354
    "Well what about courts! For crimes such as murder, theft, or fraud!" Privately run courts would exist, where the defendants and prosecutors would mutually agree to attend, so as to deter corruption. There could be 1 juror or 100, based on a voluntary or salary system. It may not be the absolute perfect system, but is our current one better? Just look at some of the corruption that is going on!
    And what laws would these courts be arbitrating in a lawless anarchy? If laws are created by some group, how is that different than a government? What if you can't afford a trial? What are the enforcement mechanisms to make sure that the judge and jury are fair and impartial? What if a volunteer jurist is someone with a grudge against you? Who would pay the "salary" of a paid jurist? What if a jurist doesn't need the pens you make but the other guy can afford to give him 100 chickens? What if the other party in your trial is some huge corporation that dumped poisonous chemicals into your water supply? Who decides what constitutes fair environmental laws (assuming that your lawless society would have environmental laws)? How do you, with no science background, go about proving that your goats are dead because of something this company dumped into the ground?

    And yes, I read your entire post.

  15. #355
    It'd help certain things, but sustaining it would be difficult. Keeping order in particular would be difficult without a policing force, and that requires someone in charge of that police force, who could take over and make it a dictatorship if there weren't checks to keep him from doing so...

    It's impractical in the long term, but I see what you're saying about how it'd cut a lot of wastefulness in getting things done.

  16. #356
    OP, if I completely disregard any of my own knowledge on the subject and use what you say as law in this thread... you still have to understand that people accustomed to a certain way of things will not likely be enthused about having their world thrown around even if it yields positive results in the long run. If a culture springs up and takes up this way of thinking and governing, then it may be sustainable to a point. However, with the way of things in this world as it is there is no feasible way to get people to buy into it. All it takes is a small resistance to your cause if they have any real power, and then it'll turn for the worse.

    Many MANY types of governing are great in theory, on paper, or in your mind with a limited world view but in order to get it established there would likely be many concessions made (in order to actually attain a high level of buy-in) that would run counter to the underlying belief systems that back the idea. The biggest things that come into play have been listed out all over this thread by replies. Take everyone that's posted in this thread and increase their representation exponentially (including yourself) and then imagine trying to establish this style of governing while meeting this proportional resistance. Good idea? Maybe. Feasible? So very unlikely.
    But then again, I am a Snowman on Fire!
    Yizelin the Insane

  17. #357
    You know, I'm just a 20 year old middle class American with limited life experience, but this is my take on this subject. I like government, and this is why.

    I've never been in a serious fight in my life. I've never had a gun pointed at me. I've never had a tank roll down my street and blow up part of my neighborhood. I've never had anything stolen from me. I have been free to do what I want for my entire life.

    None of that is guaranteed to still be true after a governmental upheaval of any kind. My life has been very peaceful, and I like that. It's nice to know that I don't have to fight for my life and my possessions every day.
    If Goku's power level increases at the same rate till the end of DBGT as it does till the end of the Frieza saga, as a SS4 Goku would have a PL of roughly 939 Quinoctogintillion. For reference that is a 260 digit number. A PL of 14,600 is required to destroy an earth sized planet. There are about 2 nonillion earths worth of mass in the universe. That means SS4 Goku can destroy the universe about 32 Octosexagintillion times over. There's a reason they made Goku a god at the end of GT.

  18. #358
    Brewmaster Duravian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    San Franpsycho, CA
    Posts
    1,478
    You're assuming everyone would turn into carebears.... that would not be the case in an anarchist state.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-13 at 11:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by JSG31494 View Post
    If you're going to make an argument of anarchism being a ruthless dog-eat dog world that the "OP" wouldn't last a day in, do not even post, as you obviously didn't read the initial thread, and cannot make up a reasonable argument. You have been brain washed through propaganda to believe in government, and anyone saying otherwise, in your minds, is a fool. Anarchism is rare throughout history, and there is NO way that you could know it would fail.
    Who are you trying to kid? Yourself, that's who. Anarchy will never work, it's extremely idealistic, to the point that it can only ever exist in fiction.
    Last edited by Duravian; 2012-04-14 at 06:40 AM.
    "The Thread Ender" - No seriously, whenever I enter a thread, people stop talking. Wtf guys, is it something I said?

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    You know, I'm just a 20 year old middle class American with limited life experience, but this is my take on this subject. I like government, and this is why.

    I've never been in a serious fight in my life. I've never had a gun pointed at me. I've never had a tank roll down my street and blow up part of my neighborhood. I've never had anything stolen from me. I have been free to do what I want for my entire life.

    None of that is guaranteed to still be true after a governmental upheaval of any kind. My life has been very peaceful, and I like that. It's nice to know that I don't have to fight for my life and my possessions every day.
    But, good sir, you have a gun pointed at your head every day. Every time you pay a tax, there is a gun at your head robbing you. You are not free, assuming you're in some nation of some sort. If you don't pay your taxes, you get a court date, if you don't show up, police go to your house and apprehend you, if you defend yourself, you are gunned down. Also, you are not free to do what you want in your everyday life. In the U.S., for example, you may not, under federal law, smoke marijuana, engage in prostitution, use any currency other than Federal Reserve Notes as legal tender, and the list goes on. Unless you have self-established yourself on Antarctica, some cay in the Caribbean, or live outside of Earth's atmosphere, you are not, never have been, and most likely, never will be free. I cannot believe the amount of submission people give to the government. Government has not ever helped you in any way, because it encourages us to make immoral decisions on the basis that there is some sort of enforced correction to be made. You won't teach your kids that killing is immoral because they'll find out through media, school or a cop themselves that violence is punishable. We have no need to teach children morals with a statist society, because they will just be corrected later on, as opposed to the ideal anarcho-capitalist society, where immoral behavior is prevented, rather than corrected.

  20. #360
    Herald of the Titans Uzi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Moravia
    Posts
    2,994
    Quote Originally Posted by JSG31494 View Post
    But, good sir, you have a gun pointed at your head every day. Every time you pay a tax, there is a gun at your head robbing you. You are not free, assuming you're in some nation of some sort. If you don't pay your taxes, you get a court date, if you don't show up, police go to your house and apprehend you, if you defend yourself, you are gunned down. Also, you are not free to do what you want in your everyday life. In the U.S., for example, you may not, under federal law, smoke marijuana, engage in prostitution, use any currency other than Federal Reserve Notes as legal tender, and the list goes on. Unless you have self-established yourself on Antarctica, some cay in the Caribbean, or live outside of Earth's atmosphere, you are not, never have been, and most likely, never will be free. I cannot believe the amount of submission people give to the government. Government has not ever helped you in any way, because it encourages us to make immoral decisions on the basis that there is some sort of enforced correction to be made. You won't teach your kids that killing is immoral because they'll find out through media, school or a cop themselves that violence is punishable. We have no need to teach children morals with a statist society, because they will just be corrected later on, as opposed to the ideal anarcho-capitalist society, where immoral behavior is prevented, rather than corrected.
    You are crazy. Yes, government does limit you. But you should realize it also limits all the other people, who don't share your mindset. The people who don't care and would gladly steal, kill, whatever. And nobody would punish them.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •