splitting 25man and 10man. the way it was before

[roflpot]

"With LFR people are getting tired more and more of an instance, so lets just hope they keep the LFR system to 1 place in MOP"

I'll translate that. People are getting bored with 1 instance, so let's hope Blizzard keeps them bored with 1 instance.

Yeah. Right. Let's hope you never get anywhere designing a computer game.

[Ryve]

With cata, people no longer needs 25 man to do raiding nor to get the best gear, so it is here things went wrong.

I disagree, it's where things went right. The fact that many people left 25 man groups in favour of 10 man groups because the rewards were the same said that a lot of people who were doing 25 mans because it had previously been essential did not particularly prefer the 25 man raiding format.

People need to stop trying to force their own desires upon others. If a lot of people are showing that they'd rather do 10 mans, let them do 10 mans. If you start giving 25 man groups better gear and make them harder again, people are going to do 25 mans for the better gear and greater challenge, not because they particularly like the format. And in the long run, all that seems to achieve is burning players out.

[Peldorain]

Here is what I dont get:

25 Man raiding, needs 25 people to be able to get through the raid.

10 Man raiding, needs 10 people to be able to get through the raid.

The problem is they give the same loot, thats the PROBLEM. The 10man needs less people so it should reward less loots(worse loots).

Its just like casuals, they only get rewarded with Normal gear while lots of guild are i.e 8/8 HC in DS. Takes casuals weeks and months to beat last boss on normal and start off with heroics.

If you can't raid 25, than you're not as hard-core as 25mans. This is why 10 man is killing 25 mans. And when 25 mans die(or almost die out) alot of raiders will quit. For example if I wont be able to get any 25 guilds anymore, I am one of them. I HATE 10 mans, so I would definitely quit.

This is just like giving casuals who raid 2 hours a week the same progress like Blood legion, Paragon, Ensidia, Vodka, Kin Raiders etc..

If you don't want to raid 25 mans, fine than you're not as hardcore as them and can raid 10 mans with abit less rewarding loot and slightly easier raid.

Else blizzard is just gonna have to allow casuals who play 2-3 hours a week to get the same progress as top guilds, because it is basically the same....

Im sorry, you must have completely missed Teir 12, where certain 10M HMs were 2x harder than 25M HMs. For example, Ryolith.

[Banzhe]

But it is fine to kill 25 pretty much in Cata for Blizzard?

This response, and pretty much of all the OP's post indicates that the sole reason for doing 25man is getting slightly better loot then 10man.

I've done 25man, scaled down to 10man when Firelands hit the fan.., but doing 25man have never been about some ridiculous Gs / Ilvl for me, it's always (and still is) about the people you play with.

The main reason for me ending 25man was to many friends / good players suddenly getting bored with the game and wanting to try out other online activities.., naturally we recruited like hell, but often ending up with lesser players having to carry dead weight, or players looking to get an alt geared fast just using a guild as a stepping stone into another guild bringing us back to square 1. (Which still happens with the current raid lockouts in both sizes, and probably always will happen)

The final and most important reason why I stopped with 25man, was when joining another 25man guild you always see small groups in that guild.., can be small groups for social reasons, groups where some players feel they are more due to time spent in the guild, or even officers looking out for their own.

It had absolutely nothing to do with feeling better about myself because I was rocking slightly higher superficial Gs / ilvl then people doing 10man, and X boss isn't always easier on 10man.., some cases yes, other cases no simply because you don't have 4-5 external cd's to float with.


The death if you wanna call it that for 25man is possibly coming because people focus Gs / Ilvl > Raiding atmosphere / progression.., not due to blizzard or anyone else other then yourself, which the OP clearly points out

I'm thinking, if anything will ever fix this nonsense 25 vs 10 lockout they should scrap the ilvl completely since it only serves as a gating into raiding.., but then I guess the new thread would be about not having higher stats on 25man gear.

[DietzThought]

If it's too hard to gather 25 people for a raid, maybe we need to kinda arrange people on certain realms depending on what raid size they prefer. If people who like 25man over 10man are put on one realm, and people who prefer 10mans on another, forming raids will become easier. I don't think you should outright ban 10man raiding from 25man-realms and the other way around, but maybe make it less rewarding, like a bit less loot or something if you don't raid in the intended size. So e.g. if not enough people turn up to go 25man you can still form 2 10man raids instead.

This of course would require massive transferring of characters and would rip the community apart, so it will never happen. But if they'd implemented it like this right from the start...

[Choptimus]

10mans are just glorified 5man heroics in my opinion. Not really what I'd call a raid. Nice for selling boosts with less people to divide payment amongst though. If you have a crap computer that can't run 25mans, then 10man is for you. Otherwise you should just step it up and get in to the real raids. 25mans aren't that much harder than 10mans, you'll be ok, 10man raiders are good players.

[lolo855]

10mans are just glorified 5man heroics in my opinion. Not really what I'd call a raid. Nice for selling boosts with less people to divide payment amongst though. If you have a crap computer that can't run 25mans, then 10man is for you. Otherwise you should just step it up and get in to the real raids. 25mans aren't that much harder than 10mans, you'll be ok, 10man raiders are good players.

This is just BS, the reason a lot for guilds run 10 man and not 25 man is because on some servers it's impossible to recruit an additional 20 good players because most decent players are in guilds already, and guild merging never worked for me int he past.


10 = raid 25 = raid, saying it's a glorified 5 man is just stupid imo -_-

---------- Post added 2012-04-15 at 10:42 AM ----------

okay this is a response post to the thread about the devs are talking about splitting 10man and 25man.

i have used the last 30 min on reading about 100 comments and that thread and they all seem to talk about the same problem and they all just give the same response '' why not just make 25 man drop more gear and give more points so people will go there''. no1 seems to remember how Wrath was and just brainfarted on that, so i thought i would make a new thread just about that

Why not just bring back the way raiding was in Wrath??


The seperation of 10man and 25man in Wrath was justified with 10man dropping lower lvl gear and bosses being a bit easier then on 25 man. This ment that the only way of doing real raiding was doing 25 man. As a player that has been raiding since vanilla, i feel less and less a raider when the number of player i am with in a raid decreases. So 40 man was great in the old days, but that was simple too many people since it took ages for 40 people to be gathered and there was really alot of people who could not make the jump from lvling to raiding. Now the TBC was brilliant since there was instances for either 10 man or 25 man. There was no problem balancing the two sides because there was really only one way you could go.
When Wrath came out, it was nice to do naxx as both 10 man and 25 man since it was a nostalgic experience to see a place that most had only heard of and had only seen from videos on Warcraftmovies. Ulduar and ICC could take the splitting of 10 man and 25 man becuase they had so many bosses that people some times went to 10 man to practice and then went on in 25 man to ''progress in raid''

With cata, people no longer needs 25 man to do raiding nor to get the best gear, so it is here things went wrong.

Now the mop prebeta is out and i really hope that first of all, THEY FIX LFR!! many says that its not working and some say it is. i don't care what the arguments are, becuase they all have the same problem. With LFR people are getting tired more and more of an instance, so lets just hope they keep the LFR system to 1 place in MOP

I think the cure for people QQing over the current raid system, is to simple get back the Wrath or TBC model back and implement it. It would fix many of the things that people are tired of, and it would give blizzard a chance to get a new start on a projekt that i think, has gone completely wrong

with love FurryFang :-:

Because the system in wrath was retarded, you wre forced to run 25 man's, and if you didn't have a guild big enough to run 25 man's you would never be able to attain a full set of decent gear.

And nothing went wrong, that's just your opinion, a lot of players are happy witht his because now we can raid with just friends and irl friends and aren't forced to play with people we don't want to play with.

[Choptimus]

Yeah, stupid IN YOUR OPINION.

IN MY OPINION they are a glorified 5man. Am I not allowed to have a different opinion to you? Does that automatically make me stupid? What should the punishment be for not agreeing with you? Also I'm not sure why you need 20 people to go from 10 to 25.... I think you should have a look at those numbers again. What server are you on? You can always recruit cross-server. My guild has recruited over 20 people since DS came out, most of them from other servers. They transfered to join. What is stopping a good 10man guild from doing that?

[Deleted]

This is just BS, the reason a lot for guilds run 10 man and not 25 man is because on some servers it's impossible to recruit an additional 20 good players because most decent players are in guilds already, and guild merging never worked for me int he past.


10 = raid 25 = raid, saying it's a glorified 5 man is just stupid imo -_-


---------- Post added 2012-04-15 at 10:42 AM ----------



Because the system in wrath was retarded, you wre forced to run 25 man's, and if you didn't have a guild big enough to run 25 man's you would never be able to attain a full set of decent gear.

And nothing went wrong, that's just your opinion, a lot of players are happy witht his because now we can raid with just friends and irl friends and aren't forced to play with people we don't want to play with.

Pretty much bull back in WOTLK I was on a crap server and we had plenty of 25 man guilds a lot where bad and a few descent ones, also people are going 10 because 25 guilds are having problems getting their roster filled seeing as a lot of people choose the easy progress route 10 MAN. In most cases it's a more reliable way to get progress to do 10 instead of 25 not really that they prefer it.

[Deleted]

The wrath model sucked. Now we can choose which raid size we want. I much rather play with 10 friends than 25 acquaintances.
I don't think there is anyway Blizzard would go back to the wrath model though, so I'm not stressing about it.

Sub numbers kept on increasing when 25 man raiding was the pinnacle, as soon as they switched to 10man being equal it went down. Coincidence?

Yes. Correlation is not causation.

---------- Post added 2012-04-15 at 02:09 PM ----------

Yeah, stupid IN YOUR OPINION.

IN MY OPINION they are a glorified 5man. Am I not allowed to have a different opinion to you? Does that automatically make me stupid? What should the punishment be for not agreeing with you? Also I'm not sure why you need 20 people to go from 10 to 25.... I think you should have a look at those numbers again. What server are you on? You can always recruit cross-server. My guild has recruited over 20 people since DS came out, most of them from other servers. They transfered to join. What is stopping a good 10man guild from doing that?

Why do these "my 25 man is so much more bad as than your 10 man" - people always seem like 14 year old boys with WoW as their only achievement?

Infracted. If you can't disagree with someone without resorting to an incredibly original "you must be a kid with no life" insult then don't respond at all - Wilderness

[Jainzar]

I don't really care what they do (well, I do care, but bringing back the wrath or even BC raiding models won't happen, so...), but they have to do something, otherwise 25m will die, which would be really sad. 10man isn't real raiding, 25m is. time for blizzard to do something, and quick-.

[Deleted]

I don't really care what they do (well, I do care, but bringing back the wrath or even BC raiding models won't happen, so...), but they have to do something, otherwise 25m will die, which would be really sad. 10man isn't real raiding, 25m is. time for blizzard to do something, and quick-.

Why is it so hard for you to find a 25 man guild then if it's real raiding?
People don't like it so it will slowly die.

[Choptimus]

Why do these "my 25 man is so much more bad as than your 10 man" - people always seem like 14 year old boys with WoW as their only achievement?

Sorry but when did I say anything of the sort? I said IN MY OPINION I do not like 10mans as they feel like glorified 5mans, due to the player size. I have not once said "My 25 man is better than your 10 man" all I said was "my 25 man has recruited 20 people since DS" which is enough people to bump a 10man roster up to a 25man roster. Please could you tell me which part of your post made you think I was saying "my 25 man is so much more bad as than your 10 man" and how it justifies you putting me in the group of "14 year old boys with WoW as their only achievement?". That's just rude, man.

You know you can play with 25 friends as well in a 25man guild, right? Just might be a little harder as there are bound to be more personality clashes. I guess that could be where the "25man is harder!!" stems from? lol idk and idc, I just slay dragons and find 25ma far more engaging, challenging, and rewarding than 10mans. Although it's more a case of waiting for that perfect try than overcoming a totally mind blowingly difficult task, which takes much much longer on 25man due to over twice as many variables and chances to fail.

Please do reply though, I wanna know why the hate.

[Deleted]

@op: do we need a new split 10/25 again thread every 3 days?

I hope they dont ever split it again

[Deleted]

How can people say that 25 man got killed with cata? thats just wrong. Before this change the only way to do "real" content was in 25 man so of course the number of 25 man raiding guilds will go down when 10 man raiding is implemented to be the same experience. Some people who enjoy playing in 10 man more than 25(me for example) swapped over resulting in less 25 man raiding players in the world.

[Deleted]

Your reasoning is that the game should be making 25 mans more attractive so that more people would be doing what you like best. There's no sense in that.

Cataclysm has shown that when people have the choice, in most cases they prefer 10 man. And still it isn't stopping your from doing your 25 mans. You're not missing out on gear or anything. What's your problem?

as you say, im just reasoning that we should have more 25 mans, because i feel that is atm the only real way to do raiding and that it has been that for some time. If you ask any guild that has around 21-24 active members, if they want to do 25 mans if they were just a few more, 90% of them will say yes. it's not because a lot of people prefer 10 man, its just that the guilds now a days, are a lot smaller then they used to because they are not forced to recruit so heavily.

My point is that i want people to feel forced into major guilds and into 25 mans. I want the ''big raids makes good raids'' back as it was from vanilla to Wrath. Blizz have been very nice to the whole raiding community... nearly too nice and i feel that people should really make an effert to make end raiding(not hc) so why not just say ''25 man or you are not getting the real thing''

[Deleted]

as you say, im just reasoning that we should have more 25 mans, because i feel that is atm the only real way to do raiding and that it has been that for some time. If you ask any guild that has around 21-24 active members, if they want to do 25 mans if they were just a few more, 90% of them will say yes. it's not because a lot of people prefer 10 man, its just that the guilds now a days, are a lot smaller then they used to because they are not forced to recruit so heavily.

My point is that i want people to feel forced into major guilds and into 25 mans. I want the ''big raids makes good raids'' back as it was from vanilla to Wrath. Blizz have been very nice to the whole raiding community... nearly too nice and i feel that people should really make an effert to make end raiding(not hc) so why not just say ''25 man or you are not getting the real thing''

Alot of people feel 10 man is a legit way of doing raiding. Your argument of considering only 25 man to be true raiding is pure bias and should and will be ignored by blizzard.

[Sengiratolom]

Split them up raidlock wise, but make them share the same lootlock, that way ppl can do raids in the prefered size, killing heroics and such, and use the other for achievements that are very hard if not impossible to do on heroic, and to help others out in said instance.

Aslong as the number output requirement per person in 10man is scaled to the false asumption that you can not have all relevant (de)buffs, and the roomsize /movement speed and meleerange isn't altered to acomodate for 25 oposed to 10 ppl in a fight were distance to eachother is relevant, 10man adds not gaining more health to accomodate to the difference in "burst cd uptime" per add basis, tankdamage mechanics being cheeseable in 10man due to being alot lower, rather then hitting just as hard, but less frequently, thereby enforcing the same cd usage as in 25. Until those issues are fixed, there is no equalty in the raidsizes.

[Deleted]

in my opinion 10 and 25 raid should be replace with 15 man

[Deleted]

Im sorry, you must have completely missed Teir 12, where certain 10M HMs were 2x harder than 25M HMs. For example, Ryolith.

Im sorry but you must have completely missed tier 11 10mans and 25man raiding in general if you think tier 12 10mans were anywhere near more challenging than tier 12 25mans. Also, the only encounter in Firelands that was distinctively harder on 10man was Beth'ilac. Rest was around equal or easier.