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  1. #101
    I don't understand why you're linking melee and pyro, I mean pyro as in the pyro branch on your merc.

    It's a 30m attack just like arsenal. It's only powertechs that need to melee with pyro due to rocket punches.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
    I don't understand why you're linking melee and pyro, I mean pyro as in the pyro branch on your merc.

    It's a 30m attack just like arsenal. It's only powertechs that need to melee with pyro due to rocket punches.
    I was specifically stating Pyro as in Powertech. Sorry if I was misleading you. Multi-tasking really throws one off some times!

    http://www.torparse.com/a/34186

    6min duration and I got screwed over with the old pre-casting thing a few times. It gives the animation of casting Unload, but really I'm just sitting there doing nothing. 1-2 sec would go by before I realized it. I am going to eat now but I will hopefully get a more accurate log up in the mean time.

    Also the parse kept going for an additional 5.5sec after I stopped attacking, thus lowering my DPS even more. You can see that if you go into the 'Log' portion and scroll to the very bottom. It waits for self buffs to wear off such as Critical Reaction.


    Edit: I keep trying to add more logs now, and there are DEFINITELY things saved within the log because if I open it up there is an entire test run inside of it... but Torparse still tells me that there are no fights, despite uploading something that is 150kb (one target dummy run). Meh, I'll try again later.
    Last edited by Forsedar; 2012-05-12 at 04:02 PM.

  3. #103
    Hey!

    Got 2 short questions now that you're back.
    - How do you deal with agro (I'm doing over 1500 dps on 8man Firebrand HM having guard on me and using agro dump each time tanks switch and I keep overagroing)
    - I was checking all the gear and I saw campaign healing belt has alot more aim and power instead of crit in comparison to eliminator one. Could this one be BiS?
    Last edited by Akora; 2012-05-12 at 09:47 PM.

  4. #104
    - I was checking all the gear and I saw campaign healing belt has alot more aim and power instead of crit in comparison to eliminator one. Could this one be BiS?
    Let me go check on that in a bit! I just made the assumption that all belts were the same (just like Rakata). I may have overlooked that detail. Let me crunch some stats to see if the Aim/Power benefit outweighs the crit benefit.

    - How do you deal with agro (I'm doing over 1500 dps on 8man Firebrand HM having guard on me and using agro dump each time tanks switch and I keep overagroing)
    This is actually not your fault. It is your tanks fault. They may need to go and read about how taunting works. Right now, taunts aren't a set percentage or number of 'threat' gain. It puts you above the person who is currently #1. They should rotate their taunts (including AoE taunts) so that when, lets assume one is a Powertech, uses his 3rd taunt, all DPS dumps their aggro. This will put the the tank WELL above anyone and guarantee aggro for the remainder of the fight. Tanks should always switch with taunts obviously, and if both tanks are rotating taunts appropriately, they will remain #1 on the threat table, regardless of which boss they swap on.

    That being said, have your tanks look into a proper threat rotation. At the beginning of fights I always try to do as much damage as possible because it starts to put me extremely high on the Threat table, thus giving the tanks an extreme advantage over other DPS because when they taunt, they are thrown above me on the same table.

    Also, our tanks are Powertech and Juggernaut. I *always* am on the target at the beginning that is being tanked by the Powertech. My DPS climaxes at about 2700 at the beginning of a fight (first 15-20sec) and I have yet to pull off of him.

    My youtube link in my signature is a good example. On Firebrand and Stormcaller, you actually hear our Powertech call out when to drop aggro because he just used his taunt. You will see nearly everyone on my side use flares, etc.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Forsedar View Post
    Let me go check on that in a bit! I just made the assumption that all belts were the same (just like Rakata). I may have overlooked that detail. Let me crunch some stats to see if the Aim/Power benefit outweighs the crit benefit.
    Healing, tanking, merc and powertech bracers and belts are all different but I think I have seen the huge difference only in belt slot.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Akora View Post
    Healing, tanking, merc and powertech bracers and belts are all different but I think I have seen the huge difference only in belt slot.
    I checked the belt slot, and the only change I am seeing is more Aim but less Crit on the piece. Either the site is wrong or that is the real numbers. Regardless, I will look more into it to see if the Aim increase is still more viable than the Crit gain.

  7. #107
    This posted on sithwarrior:

    "Xenofire on the official forums confirms that armor debuffs definitely stack. He regularly runs with 6-7 of them in his raid, and I've seen his parses clock in between 1.9k and 2k dps as Lightning. "

    -Nish

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Nish77 View Post
    This posted on sithwarrior:

    "Xenofire on the official forums confirms that armor debuffs definitely stack. He regularly runs with 6-7 of them in his raid, and I've seen his parses clock in between 1.9k and 2k dps as Lightning. "

    -Nish
    That still doesn't make sense. Each stack gives 20% ArP. Anything past 100% would be useless. I know they stack to an extent, but I doubt they go all the way to 100% from my own experience.

    I'm not tossing this out of my mind just yet since there still is the possibility, but I would love to see these logs indicating that someone is doing 1.9k - 2.k DPS as Lightning, when right now the highest potential output for a sustained fight is about 1750 in best case scenario.

    Also, most of Sorc abilities are Internal, which automatically bypass armor as it is (Thundering Blast being the big one).
    Last edited by Forsedar; 2012-05-14 at 02:24 AM.

  9. #109
    On the low level dummy I easily push over 1800 self buffed (sage buff only no stim). I think only the 3 different types help, though. As in, commando + guardian + gunslinger but I could be wrong.

    75+ percent of sage damage is kinetic (tk throw/force lightning, mind crush/crushing darkness and it's dot).

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Nish77 View Post
    On the low level dummy I easily push over 1800 self buffed (sage buff only no stim). I think only the 3 different types help, though. As in, commando + guardian + gunslinger but I could be wrong.

    75+ percent of sage damage is kinetic (tk throw/force lightning, mind crush/crushing darkness and it's dot).
    1800 for a sustained duration? Or just 1800 in a short period? Either way, I do believe that things stack to an extent (such as two different classes having a stacking affect) but I don't think we can hit 100% anymore. My damage feels too weak in comparison to how it was pre 1.2c.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Forsedar View Post
    I checked the belt slot, and the only change I am seeing is more Aim but less Crit on the piece. Either the site is wrong or that is the real numbers. Regardless, I will look more into it to see if the Aim increase is still more viable than the Crit gain.
    I apologise a bit. Didin't know where exactly I saw it but I knew I did.

    Black Hole Med-tech MK-1 Belt for 35 commendations
    102 aim
    71 endurance
    41 power

    The difference from yours is +9 aim, and switch of 41 crit into 41 power.

    Calculated new stats if you buy heirloom belt and bracer. For both you can get:
    114 aim
    76 endurance
    41 power

    Using (61 aim, 44 endurance) rakata armoring and (53 aim, 32 endurance, 41 power) black hole mod.
    Last edited by Akora; 2012-05-14 at 12:27 PM. Reason: New data

  12. #112
    Well there was my problem! I was looking at Campaign- didn't think to look at Black Hole. I would say grabbing the Legacy bracers and using a +68 aim armoring with the power/aim mod which would be not that hard to obtain.

    However, keeping the campaign belt would be preferred considering it gives the +crit we need to maintain it at a correct level.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Forsedar View Post

    Again, this spec is only intended for those who are clearing or nearly clearing ALL of HM EC. If you try out this spec in lesser gear, your Heat ramp up will be extreme and will ruin your DPS.
    This is not true at all. I have gotten better results speccing into 9% alacrity from the start. It has nothing to do with your ability to obtain BH/Camp. gear. In fact, your gear is irrelivant to whether speccing into 9% alacrity is better or not with the exception of crit% (beacuse crit is the only stat that helps you manage the extra heat from faster casts). Since a 30-35%crit rate is abolutely feasible in any set of gear this is a non issue.

    Stacking power with rakata gear to make unload more powerful was a good idea, but it's not any better than having a higher crit rate and 9% alacrity. No one needs to clear EC HM to do any of this. You just happen to be on the other side of the fence now because the Campaign weapons have a large crit stat.

    Other than that, good write-up.

  14. #114
    This is not true at all. I have gotten better results speccing into 9% alacrity from the start. It has nothing to do with your ability to obtain BH/Camp. gear. In fact, your gear is irrelivant to whether speccing into 9% alacrity is better or not with the exception of crit% (beacuse crit is the only stat that helps you manage the extra heat from faster casts). Since a 30-35%crit rate is abolutely feasible in any set of gear this is a non issue.

    Stacking power with rakata gear to make unload more powerful was a good idea, but it's not any better than having a higher crit rate and 9% alacrity. No one needs to clear EC HM to do any of this. You just happen to be on the other side of the fence now because the Campaign weapons have a large crit stat.
    With Merc's recent 'nerfs' or tuning, we have to make sure we have a plentiful balance of secondary stats. With Rakata gear, you don't have the luxury of having all 3 secondary stats as if you would using Black Hole and Campaign gear.

    In a standstill situation, the 9% alacrity trumps anything- however this is a guide for maximum output while raiding- not using a Target Dummy. Being in Rakata gear, we have the choice of Crit/Surge or Accuracy/Power. If we try to go all 3, then we'll just gimp ourselves with too little of everything. We can pick 2 and have a healthy amount of each, and in the end, Accuracy/Power outweighs the benefit of Crit/Surge at that gear level.

    Since Acc/Power is more beneficial, that means going into the 9% alacrity will be troublesome since the heatdrop from critting will be minimal due to not enough crit. If you decide to stack crit, your Power will be insufficient and most likely be under 300.

    That is why I classified it into gear levels based on what was acquirable and what wasn't. You don't have to be clearing HM EC, but you do need to be well into it in order to sustain yourself with enough upgrades to justify going for all three secondary stats.

    Also to be fair... My second campaign weapon has power/surge enhancements in it as well as a +41 power crystal. The crit benefit from one weapon was enough, so I am not biased based on what I currently have.

    In the end, I merely offer suggestions. Each person can decide what they want to do with the information I give. I only want to help inform other Bounty Hunters and possibly lead them into deciphering things for themselves.
    Last edited by Forsedar; 2012-05-14 at 09:38 PM.

  15. #115
    Except you are NOT giving any informing at all. You are making unfounded statements and expecting people to believe you based off of who knows what.

    Who says that <300 power but max crit/surge is better than minimal crit/surge and >300 power? Do you expect people to blindly accept this because you say it is so? I went the higher crit/surge route when I was in Rakata gear and was specced 9% alacrity. I have yet to see a parse that does any better than what I was doing on a dummy or a raid boss.

    Even if you couldn't explain mathematically why your choices are better I would think you would at least produce some significantly better parses before you went and told everyone that power is better for rakata and crit is better for Campaign.

    Good theory-crafting involves proof, not speculation. If no math, then at least produce a parse that someone who is geared/specced the other way can't produce.

    All I see is that you are now doing what all the good mercenaries have been doing since they hit lvl 50...spec into alacrity. :P I just don't understand the change of heart because, before, you were going on a rampage about how alacrity actually ruins your dps and messes with the heat return on unload.

  16. #116
    Except you are NOT giving any informing at all. You are making unfounded statements and expecting people to believe you based off of who knows what.
    The people who listen to me have came back with increased DPS, and have thanked me for my work in this department. You are the only one, out of 20,000 views, to have voiced any disconcern with what I have wrote. Please, other than putting me down- explain why my statements have zero backing, because if anything, you are the one here spouting nonsense.

    Who says that <300 power but max crit/surge is better than minimal crit/surge and >300 power? Do you expect people to blindly accept this because you say it is so? I went the higher crit/surge route when I was in Rakata gear and was specced 9% alacrity. I have yet to see a parse that does any better than what I was doing on a dummy or a raid boss.
    First off: You do not browse around looking for parses. I can guarantee you that you aren't doing the best possible DPS choosing that gear route. Why can I guarantee that? Because others *had* the same ideology that you had and noticed their DPS wasn't up to par. They were redirected to this very guide and have found it to be helpful in their DPS gain.

    So again, math > your opinion. I am sorry to be so blunt, but you have zero credibility right now. I provided an entire guide with detail... you provided nothing but angst.

    Even if you couldn't explain mathematically why your choices are better I would think you would at least produce some significantly better parses before you went and told everyone that power is better for rakata and crit is better for Campaign.
    I think you should go back to my guide and read it. Let me explain it to you (again).

    In Rakata level gear, you have two routes to choose. Accuracy/Power or Crit/Surge. You cannot have both. There are 3 basic secondary stats that we rely on, however gear limits you at the Rakata level to only having access to 2 of your choice.

    If you go the Accuracy/Power route: you gain a 50-60 DPS minimal increase from offhand hits as well as 750+ Power to make your baseline hits incredible.

    If you go Crit/Surge: You will get to about 35% crit buffed and 73/74% surge rating. Your power will be dwindled down to less than 300. Your base hits will be minimal, while your crits will be 'mediocre' at best. Having a high amount of power will offset the amount of surge you have. Keep in mind you will still maintain about 65% surge rating going the Power route.

    So please disprove this when the numbers are right in front of you.

    The reason I say to start going for Crit when you have Campaign gear is because you have an overabundance of everything. You can maintain 37% crit while holding above 700 power AND having 74% surge rating. You then spec into Alacrity since you have now gained the amount of crit to make it viable.

    Again, please disprove what I am saying other than saying "you're wrong."

    Good theory-crafting involves proof, not speculation. If no math, then at least produce a parse that someone who is geared/specced the other way can't produce.
    I have stated I can link my spreadsheet- its not hard to do. Its very thorough. Math + Trial = Results. You are focusing on blunt logic attained from somewhere in the forums or your guild.

    All I see is that you are now doing what all the good mercenaries have been doing since they hit lvl 50...spec into alacrity. :P I just don't understand the change of heart because, before, you were going on a rampage about how alacrity actually ruins your dps and messes with the heat return on unload.
    "All the good mercenaries" is a very vague statement. Please direct me to a Mercenary who knows the class better than I do... who produces better results than I have... I'd be honored to talk them. Right now, the only Mercenaries I know that 'think they are the best' are on MMO-Mechanics, throwing around 1350 DPS parses, when my parses that I decided to toss in the mix have been 1650+.

    I just don't understand the change of heart because, before, you were going on a rampage about how alacrity actually ruins your dps and messes with the heat return on unload.
    Please specify my change of heart. I merely pointed out that alacrity with the Acc/Power build just doesn't mix right. You will not crit enough to make up for the heat ramp up. You lose heat WHILE you are channeling/casting abilities. That is apart of the formula. If you shorten the casts and channels, you are thus decreasing your heat regeneration.

    How is this wrong? I said in order for the Alacrity build to be viable, you need to have a healthy mix of stats, not just a focus on crit and surge- you just won't hit hard enough for it to be worth it.

    Please, before you respond: Actually think about what you are saying. I want to know in detail why I am wrong other than just being told I am wrong. I am open to suggestions, but right now you aren't being productive in this thread. This thread has obviously helped numerous people. I get PMs on the TOR forums and here on MMOC daily asking for advice or what to do.

    Again, try to discredit me all you want- right now its not very thoughtout.

    Just food for thought: I have been in contact with Stephen Reid numerous times about the potential class imbalances compared to Mercenaries as well as 'unknown' changes that may have been made. He has taken the time to talk to me, though briefly, but my contributions extend farther than what you may see.
    Last edited by Forsedar; 2012-05-15 at 12:33 AM.

  17. #117
    You are still doing it...

    "minimal" "mediocre" Those are not words you use when trying to defend you theory.

    EXACTLY how much and WHY is what people need to know in order to make decisions. This is why you caught so much flack on the SWTOR MEchanics (sithwarroor) forums. You cant just go around acting like you are god's gift to mercenaries and expect people to believe everything you say.

    I'm not trying to discredit you. In fact, my gear looks about identical to yours and my spec looks the same now that you have seen the light.

    Asking someone to prove their position would not be frowned upon unless the person has no proof.

    Edit: I'd be a lot more inclined to listen to you if you said something like according to X calculation, having 700 power produces X% more dps when compared to the same simulation running 400 power but 35% crit. That's something that actually matters.

    Instead you make more straw men. "Hey I'm buddies with a dev and we are cool on levels you don't even know about. Listen to everything I say and believe me no matter what now!"

    I mean...you ever take logical reasoning in school? Cause I can't even count the number of fallacies in your posts. :P
    Last edited by Phaser; 2012-05-15 at 02:15 AM.

  18. #118
    EXACTLY how much and WHY is what people need to know in order to make decisions. This is why you caught so much flack on the SWTOR MEchanics (sithwarroor) forums. You cant just go around acting like you are god's gift to mercenaries and expect people to believe everything you say.
    I caught flack from people because those forums turned into, "No one can tell me I'm wrong."

    Not one person there could give me a parse that outdid mine, not only that... my parses were always longer in length as well. Obviously I am doing something right.

    I went into that thread and showed my spreadsheet. I gave actually numerical data indicating DPS loss and gain among different changes.


    Unless you have anything further to add (because you have yet to add anything), I am done responding to you.



    This is a guide. It tells people what they need to do so they do not have to run around aimlessly based on assumptions. Its quite clear what to do- it is really straight forward. I still fail to see any of your points... maybe I'm just overlooking them. What do you gain coming in here? Apparently you are doing the exact thing that I am doing- so what is the point of your responses? Obviously I am doing something right if you're identical to me.

    I guess you just have some beef with me because you quoted MMO-Mechanics, which is actually one of the worst places to go for (bounty hunter) theory crafting. It has gone downhill, that is why I created this guide so they didn't have to go to a forum full of people linking their 1300 DPS parses to back up their information.




    The fact I can give you a thought out response to you- and get (still) nothing in return shows you do not have any backing behind what you are claiming. You can't tell someone they're wrong without showing proof yourself. Saying "everyone is doing it" is just a massive generalization. Saying I'm acting like "gods gift to Mercenaries" is a childish remark that I will fail to ignore.

    I am going out of my way to help A LOT of people. I am using my personal time in order to help. You are using your personal time in order to discredit me with misguided information you have based on assumptions.

    I am going to go grab some sleep now because the Diablo III release is in a few hours. Have to rest up for my groups power-to-60 the next couple days.
    Last edited by Forsedar; 2012-05-15 at 01:57 AM.

  19. #119
    You sure you want to stick with that story? Because part of the reason you got discredited was because when you finally posted a parse in the thread after making your claims about the power stat, Glorion posted better ones. You not only failed to produce superior or longer parses, you didn't even do as well as the other side. Your latest 1650dps parse is a 120 second parse...I can do that by myself with no other debuffs and no bloodthirst. You were in a 16 man raid. So no, you have not produced any proof and the parses you have provided hurt your theory even more.

    I'm sure you are still living in the delusion that you are the saving grace of hundreds of poor mercenaries out there who don't know how to play their class.

    10 bucks says you actually are not done responding in this thread

    P.S. Me and Glor are doing 1500 dps on 5 minute parses on dummies. I'm doing higher than that on good raid burn targets. Do you think you can do significantly better than that in your low crit high power build? Doubt it. Otherwise, the only thing that has happened here is that you are finally doing what Glorion and the rest of the people on forums has said was the best way to go all along.

  20. #120
    My biggest question is how are you going through a 6 minute duration fight without using Rapid Shots at all? Is this typical for you? Spam casting TM/HSM/UL/RS with no rapid shots to manage heat leaves me quite starved. My gear is a mix of Rakata/Campaign/BH with an appropriate stat balance.

    Any breakdown of how to better manage heat would be helpful.
    Last edited by guncom; 2012-05-15 at 07:23 AM.

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