Thread: [MoP] Mage AoE

  1. #1

    [MoP] Mage AoE

    I want to ask someone with more knowledge on the matter, how is mage aoe going to be in MoP ? I really dislike the current model of Arcane and Fire aoe (I'm deliberately excluding Frost since it is not as viable for raiding as the other specs).

    - Arcane AoE is mediocre at best, requires you to stop spamming AE to keep up AB stacks, requires melee range which is ridiculous imo. It could be good for short burst of AoE and when movement is required, but other than that its sustained damage is laughable and being in melee range is frustrating as well.
    - Fire AoE is the pinnacle of RNG in WoW, if you are lucky, it is in a league of its own, but otherwise it is mediocre to good at best. Relying so much on Combustion for good AoE is a terrible mechanic, it is fun to do it I agree, but when you are spit upon from the RNG gods, it can be very frustrating.

    Also I think it's important to see how other classes are doing their AoE, I'm not going to list them all, just a few for comparison:

    1.Shadow priest - Mind Sear, doesn't require anything, but a friendly or hostile target in the middle of other targets, coupled with the amazing multidot abilities of the priest we are looking at a very strong on demand, bursty, absolutely not reliant on RNG AoE.
    2. Rogue - Blade Flurry, self explanatory when you read the tooltip, amazing on demand cleave.
    3. Hunters - Multi-Shot, can't say anything really, since I don't have a high level hunter, but when I check our hunters in our logs, I see they pretty much do their AoE also on demand with no special RNG requirements.

    So, my question is this - are we looking at a more reliable Mage AoE in MoP ? I don't mind working more than most classes to achieve similar results, but I want to know that when I need to do AoE, I'm going to do it and not pray for lucky crits or for the adds to actually stay alive until I'm ready to damage them.

  2. #2
    Well, we have more options now. The new Arcane Bomb (nether tempest or something) is pretty nifty since it cleaves and currently has no target limit, but that does take a bit of time to set up (casting it on everything); however, once it gets going I believe it's pretty strong. Also, Arcane Barrage cleaves depending on your AB stacks.

    Ice Lance cleaves for Frost now, and the Frost Orb is great at getting FoF procs (plus Ice Lance can crit pretty freaking high; I tried the new dungeon and on AoE pulls I'd throw out Frost Orb for essentially unlimited FoF procs, and then just spam Ice Lance critting my main target anywhere from 45-75k and critting a nearby target for 50% of that).

    I think fire is in roughly the same place, but with a little less RNG.

  3. #3
    As it stands on beta:

    -Fire functions similarly but as Jwalla83 said, with less RNG. Combustion has a 45 second cooldown so it's available far more frequently, and the new Ignite simply adds a DoT component to every spell. So while a lead in set of crits will still be nice, you'll still always have a DoT.

    -Arcane is looking really good. What isn't in the tooltips at this time (so unknown if intended) is that Arcane Explosion generates a charge. Arcane Barrage hits an additional target per charge. So together you use AE a few times and then you can ABar for quite an impressive amount against multiple targets.

    -I don't pay attention to Frost. :X

    Also, not to be too picky but Blade Flurry isn't really AoE. In fact Rogues are kind of 'eh' with their AoE on live (Assassination is pretty good if given a bit of ramp up time).

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Baalb View Post

    Also I think it's important to see how other classes are doing their AoE, I'm not going to list them all, just a few for comparison:

    1.Shadow priest - Mind Sear, doesn't require anything, but a friendly or hostile target in the middle of other targets, coupled with the amazing multidot abilities of the priest we are looking at a very strong on demand, bursty, absolutely not reliant on RNG AoE.
    3. Hunters - Multi-Shot, can't say anything really, since I don't have a high level hunter, but when I check our hunters in our logs, I see they pretty much do their AoE also on demand with no special RNG requirements.
    Seeing as I have both of the classes you mentioned (as well as a fire mage) I'd like to point out that for Mind Sear to be at maximum efficiency the priest has to have 5 stacks of evangelism and empowered shadows up, not just a simple "let me press this one button and watch recount fly"

    As for the Hunter, in Survival Multi Shot drains a shyt ton of Focus and there is no Focus refund on it like in Marksman "Bombardment" Talent. Pretty sure right now (haven't played my hunter in a bit) you would have to be almost 100% focus to spam MS twice and then you would need to throw a Cobra Shot Steady shot to regen a little focus to possibly have your 3rd ready. Not really on demand in my eyes

  5. #5
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Arcane AoE works like this currently:

    1. Cast Nether Tempest on every mob in the area of effect you want to cover
    2. Use Fire Blast (with the glyph) on one of the mobs to proc an extra tick of Nether Tempest on all targets
    3. Spam Arcane Explosion 4 times (it gives stacks of Arcane Charge)
    4. Cast Arcane Barrage which hits 1 extra target per stack of Arcane Charge
    5. Repeat all steps until the mobs are dead.

    Depending on the health of the mobs, you're looking at 1, 2, 3, 4, 2, 3, 4, 1...

  6. #6
    Actually Arcane Explosion's tooltip says that it generates a charge. I think our AOE rotation will be: 4xAE, Abarr (probably even if there is less target).
    It does a really huge dps, the only issue will be the positioning. AE did 6/12k (hit/crit) dmg for me per target at lvl85 and barrage did (40/80k) with only selfbuffs.
    However, there is bug, that sometimes barrage hits less target (only one or two extra, even I have 4 charges and 5 enemies).
    I have the feeling, using any bombs will just make arcane aoe dps worse. Of course, we will see that at lvl90.

  7. #7
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    I will just recall that all bomb is accessible to all spec for the same damage in all spec.

    So actually, the best bomb on AOE situation is :
    • Living Bomb if you have 3 target or more (spread with Glyphed Fire Blast)
    • Frost Bomb if you have 10+ target
    • Nether Tempest is pretty good on cleave situation because more than 3 bombs take to much time to cast, and the AOE with Glyphed Fire Blast is ridiculous (AOE of only 1 tick)

    You can be sure that Fire will be the best spec on AOE due to the spreading of Combustion and all others DOT. But we can assume that Arcane and Frost will don't be far beyond

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Baalb View Post
    I want to ask someone with more knowledge on the matter, how is mage aoe going to be in MoP ? I really dislike the current model of Arcane and Fire aoe (I'm deliberately excluding Frost since it is not as viable for raiding as the other specs).

    - Arcane AoE is mediocre at best, requires you to stop spamming AE to keep up AB stacks, requires melee range which is ridiculous imo. It could be good for short burst of AoE and when movement is required, but other than that its sustained damage is laughable and being in melee range is frustrating as well.
    - Fire AoE is the pinnacle of RNG in WoW, if you are lucky, it is in a league of its own, but otherwise it is mediocre to good at best. Relying so much on Combustion for good AoE is a terrible mechanic, it is fun to do it I agree, but when you are spit upon from the RNG gods, it can be very frustrating.

    Also I think it's important to see how other classes are doing their AoE, I'm not going to list them all, just a few for comparison:

    1.Shadow priest - Mind Sear, doesn't require anything, but a friendly or hostile target in the middle of other targets, coupled with the amazing multidot abilities of the priest we are looking at a very strong on demand, bursty, absolutely not reliant on RNG AoE.
    2. Rogue - Blade Flurry, self explanatory when you read the tooltip, amazing on demand cleave.
    3. Hunters - Multi-Shot, can't say anything really, since I don't have a high level hunter, but when I check our hunters in our logs, I see they pretty much do their AoE also on demand with no special RNG requirements.

    So, my question is this - are we looking at a more reliable Mage AoE in MoP ? I don't mind working more than most classes to achieve similar results, but I want to know that when I need to do AoE, I'm going to do it and not pray for lucky crits or for the adds to actually stay alive until I'm ready to damage them.
    Tired of crappy boring AOE; mind sear sucks, not because it does little damage (it doesnt) but because it's so boooring, cast on tank, hit 1 button every few seconds, top dps. At least with mages you have to DO something.

  9. #9
    Yeh got to say fire is 1 of the least boring aoe i have played, you need to line a few things up correctly to get good aoe.

    Too many clases out there have 1 button AOE, cant say that about fire mage.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Baalb View Post
    (I'm deliberately excluding Frost since it is not as viable for raiding as the other specs).
    Considering the changes being made to all three specs, I think that's a bit premature


    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    I will just recall that all bomb is accessible to all spec for the same damage in all spec.

    So actually, the best bomb on AOE situation is :
    • Living Bomb if you have 3 target or more (spread with Glyphed Fire Blast)
    • Frost Bomb if you have 10+ target
    • Nether Tempest is pretty good on cleave situation because more than 3 bombs take to much time to cast, and the AOE with Glyphed Fire Blast is ridiculous (AOE of only 1 tick)

    You can be sure that Fire will be the best spec on AOE due to the spreading of Combustion and all others DOT. But we can assume that Arcane and Frost will don't be far beyond
    Don't forget the fire blast glyph interacts with all bombs too, so every spec is going to want to use their bomb spell for AOE

  11. #11
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Don't forget the fire blast glyph interacts with all bombs too, so every spec is going to want to use their bomb spell for AOE
    It's where the majority made a mistake. The use of bomb isn't limited by spec any more.
    Each bomb is better in a situation: AOE, PVP or cleave.

    edit: And I have included how Glyphed Fireblast interact actually
    Last edited by Nathyiel; 2012-04-18 at 01:38 PM.

  12. #12
    What confuses me a little is the Frost Bomb + Fire Blast interaction
    Unless Fire Blast also resets the cooldown, the only advantage to a premature Frost Bomb detonation is if the target is going to die early
    Doesn't Frost Bomb have a cooldown equal to its duration anyway?

  13. #13
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    I will detail Frost Bomb:
    • You cast Frost Bomb (1.5s without haste, 1.3s with 15% haste)
    • At 50% of the CD, FB explode for big damage on the main target and 1/2 damage on all other targets in 10 yards. (5s at 0% haste, 4.35s at 15% haste)
    • At 100% of the CD, FB will be castable. (10s at 0% haste, 8.7s at 15% haste)


    Glyphed fireblast will make explode before 50% of the cooldown but to reset the cooldown.
    And if you ask, on NT, it add another tick witch go to all target in the 10 yards. The tick's damage is 1/24 of the total damage on the main target.

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