1. #1

    Classes with resource regen independent from move use - what is the point of 1h weap?

    So I am about to get betamaxed, and my last class to play is the wizard, and this has really been bugging me:

    From what I can see with wizard, there is no reason to not run around with a gigantic sword - it does greater damage on all abilities used (yes it affects spells) and when it comes to moves that consume arcane power, it doesn't really seem to be negatively impacted from weapon speed (i.e. I can still use all my arcane power before I regen enough to use the spell again on the arcane orbs, and I seem to channel the ice beam and triple arcane shot the same amount of time independent of weapon speed).

    Now I can understand weapon speed when your left click ability is tied to generating a resource, Monk is a prime example, where in combat with a slow weapon half the time I'm like, "WTF I HAVE NO SPIRIT!" and the attacks for left click themselves take atrociously long when inside that 3 shot combo system. Even barbarian, with frenzy, I need to weigh how ridiculously fast I can generate fury with larger fury hits on a 2h weapon, and while I have a preference, I can definitely see the option for choice.

    Does anyone else feel this way about Wizards? It almost seems exclusive to Wizards, as when I was playing a Witch Doctor, I got the impression of weapon speed impacting all abilities, even though they lack a move that generates mana. It just seems that, at least at lower difficulties (I assume shield will become increasingly more viable as the difficulty spikes, but that is for issues independent of damage) that there is nothing that an eagle orb can offer that justifies a 1h weapon, if said 1h weapon and 2h weapon are on the same tier/dps level. Any thoughts on this?

  2. #2
    I was using a heater shield with 11 int, and a 16.6 dps wand with 10 int. That 21 int is 21% increased damage from all abilities for a wizard. When I finally got the stats on the shield I wanted, I replaced a 19.6 dps two hander. Maybe if the two hander had int on it it mightn't have been worth it, but using the wand and shield was far more effective on my 13 wizard.

  3. #3
    What I'm saying though is that arcane power consuming moves are not properly reflected in the dps as listed on the paperdoll

  4. #4
    I don't know bro i'd like to know more about this, just hadn't found the info.
    Ray of Frost MAY be affected by weapon speed, but i'm not sure about it, couldn't confirm or deny so far. It could tick faster.
    Spells like arcane orb are cast faster with weapon speed.
    So it is a dps gain overall in their case.
    But for some situations you may want to prioritize a weapon with more damage over a weapon with more dps (that is, higher weapon speed).

    Now to the topic of 1h, remember that orbs add +x to y dmg. A pair of level 13 wand+orb DOES give you more damage than a Two-handed of the same level.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryquis View Post
    What I'm saying though is that arcane power consuming moves are not properly reflected in the dps as listed on the paperdoll
    The dps listed on the paperdoll is your basic attack, i.e. 100% weapon damage.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Merope View Post
    The dps listed on the paperdoll is your basic attack, i.e. 100% weapon damage.
    That's what I said, let me try and rephrase for the sake of clarity.

    The point the other guy was making was that he had a higher dps from a shield/1h combo than a 2h weapon. The point I was making is that since special moves, for this example arcane orb, are contingent on arcane power regeneration as opposed to casting time - You will always get 3 arcane orbs in a row before being faced with a brief recharge time on arcane power; a time which is the same for either weapon, HOWEVER the slower, higher damaging weapon is not negatively effected from the casting time detriment that balances 1h and 2h signature spells, because both weapons are restricted by arcane power, making the 2h variant much more powerful.

    The tooltip for arcane orb is as follows:

    "Hurl an orb of pure energy that explodes when it hits, dealing 175% weapon damage as Arcane to all enemies within 10 yards."

    That 175% weapon damage will always be higher on a 2h weapon of equivalent dps, I highly doubt that any prefix/suffix combination on a mainhand/offhand setup will be enough to offset the difference between a 1hands weapon damage and a 2h's, considering it is about 1.5x as much. My argument from this logic is that, since signature spells are balanced with weapon speed, but arcane power spells drastically favor 2h, why would you ever use a 1h/offhand combo?

    I'm curious to know if my logic is sound or not, it makes sense in my head.

  7. #7
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    I believe it will be a matter of dot based builds vs burst based builds.

    DOTs scale to your weapon speed so that they will do damage based on weapon dps, and 1 hand and 2 hand weapons have comparable dps values. So then it is a matter of stats. However for burst based builds that have their abilities do damage instantly, a two hand would be preferred due to the slower speed and hence, higher damage dealt per strike (And resource)
    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Ford
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    This explains a lot.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by BoomChickn View Post
    I believe it will be a matter of dot based builds vs burst based builds.

    DOTs scale to your weapon speed so that they will do damage based on weapon dps, and 1 hand and 2 hand weapons have comparable dps values. So then it is a matter of stats. However for burst based builds that have their abilities do damage instantly, a two hand would be preferred due to the slower speed and hence, higher damage dealt per strike (And resource)
    Wizard's don't have any reliable primary damaging moves (i.e. right click) that rely on weapon speed as opposed to raw weapon damage.
    To end this discussion and prevent misunderstanding, someone brought to my attention the passive skill "Prodigy" which generates 4 arcane power per use of a signature spell. My theorycrafting being sound as far as I can tell, this passive will be mandatory for anyone using a 1h wizard build that wants to output the maximum dps at higher levels.

    Edit: All of this barring the presence of an item that has a direct impact on class specific attributes such as a particular spell's damage, which would change the balance entirely.
    Last edited by Ryquis; 2012-04-18 at 09:36 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryquis View Post
    That 175% weapon damage will always be higher on a 2h weapon of equivalent dps, I highly doubt that any prefix/suffix combination on a mainhand/offhand setup will be enough to offset the difference between a 1hands weapon damage and a 2h's, considering it is about 1.5x as much. My argument from this logic is that, since signature spells are balanced with weapon speed, but arcane power spells drastically favor 2h, why would you ever use a 1h/offhand combo?
    There are a few things you have to consider in the whole formula before a final logic conclusion.
    Let's work with arcane orb initially.
    On short fights you would want just max damage output for your arcane orbs and that's it. You'd throw 2-3 arcane orbs and most mobs are dead.
    On long fights you would want both high damage and weapon speed. Why? With a higher weapon speed you would spend your 3 orbs faster and would come back to the lower dps cicle faster. And you'd do more damage during this lower dps cicle (faster casts). For long fights speed does count as a dps again.
    Does that mean that a 1h combo would bring more dps than a 2h? It depends on the numbers. Just note this: weapon speed is a dps gain on long fights, and makes little to no difference in short fights.

    since signature spells are balanced with weapon speed, but arcane power spells drastically favor 2h, why would you ever use a 1h/offhand combo?
    Let me rephrase you for the sake of clarity.

    Since signature spells benefit more of weapon speed, but arcane power spells drastically favor weapon damage, why would you ever use a 1h/offhand combo?

    You're assuming that 2h necessarily brings more weapon damage, which is a mistake. Remember the 1hand is not alone: the offhands bring +x damage.
    Let me demonstrate.

    Lvl 9 Flamberge:
    16.0–17.6 Damage Per Second
    12–17 Damage
    1.10 Attacks per Second

    Let's say it's a magic item with + 1-2 holy damage. The total weapon damage is 13-19, correct?

    A lvl 10 Wand
    14.7–16.8 Damage Per Second
    10-15 Damage
    1.40 Attacks per Second

    A magic version would have + 1-2 fire damage.
    Plus the offhand:

    Lvl 5 Eagle Orb
    +1–2 Damage
    Some random magic property (may be intelligence)

    Total weapon damage is 12-19, correct?

    You see the 1hand alone has less weapon damage. But the combo has roughly the same weapon damage, which is blizzard intention. Plus the 1h/offhand combo would give you faster casts (which is why the combo show more dps) and more stats, like intelligence (so a well itemized combo would bring more damage, not just dps) etc.

    Conclusion? Arcane power spells don't drastically favor 2h.
    2h or 1h/off? It depends on the individual items we're talking about.
    Last edited by Magemaer; 2012-04-19 at 05:35 AM.

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