PvE Hemo Sub spec (no backstabbing)

[RemJay24]

Looking to spec full time Sub as Hemo/Ambush (without backstabbing). There are some minor adjustments to the talent tree (namely in Assassination) and glyphs, but the rotation remains the same (without the BS... har har). Much of this was discussed over a month ago, HERE, but fizzled and nothing was brought up again. There is no mention of this spec on EJ.

From what I've read, its been discussed that the normal Sub spec is about 1-2% above Hemo-only Sub spec in terms of DPS.

So why bring this up?
1) If you have the legendary daggers, the procs occur even faster
2) Not having to re-spec specifically for Ultra and a bit easier on adds for Blackhorn (I'm aware Combat is better for these two fights, but once your guild is farming them - why not?)
3) More eviscerates go through, thus not having to worry so much about Rupture dropping off.
4) Odd specs are fun! At a loss of minor DPS, you gain a slightly easier and manageable rotation.

The spec puts the points from Puncturing Wounds into Ruthlessness. I know Adehl is still using this spec. However he is capping CdG at 3/3 and leaving Precision with 1/3. I'm assuming he's doing this because of the legendary procs generates more Eviscerates, thus increasing Evis' value? Shadowcraft still suggests 2/3 in both - but perhaps SC doesn't account for the Legendary proc. (I can't remember). The only glyph change is removing Backstab to Eviscerate.

Anyway, just wondering if anyone else is using this spec and if they noticed any changes in their stat priorities (to me it remains the same as the usual Sub spec, though Mastery gains some ground, but still falls short of overcoming Spell Hit). Any other insight of it possibly overcoming the traditional Sub spec?

[Carp The Fish]

If I had to guess the reason for why Ahdehl's Hemo-Sub spec only has one point in Precision is because it only needs one point to make a Hemo-Sub spec viable. Yes, your poisons are going to proc less and your white melee hits have a bigger chance to miss, but (in theory) that "missing" damage is made up for by the other damage capabilities that Hemo-Sub offers.

The spec is pretty fun. With Combat reforging, it probably pulls better numbers than a Backstab-Sub spec.

[Synexlol]

Last I heard Hemo was about 8% behind. It doesn't scale any better with gear than a Backstab spec (and certainly not with weapon damage) so I can't imagine the orange daggers making up that much ground. They are both almost identical in play style so I see no reason to take the less damage route but it should compete well enough to justify playing it if you're adamant.

[Fae]

At least in theory, Hemo spec is more spammy -> it gets more legendary procs. It also has buffed Eviscerate to use them.

Another benefit is more flexible rotation that helps on everything where you can't just stand at the boss and nuke (= pretty much everything).

[Mugajak]

Did some math on the subject some time back that showed it ~4-5% behind backstab across norm->heroic T13, with no significant benefit from combat reforging with reference to the backstab spec. In both reforging schemes, hemo remained the same amount behind backstab. For comparisons in SC, please note that glyph of Hemo has approximately the same value in both specs, but isn't modeled for backstab, so you should remove one glyph (eviscerate or ShD) and add the DPS from glyph of Hemo (hemo builder DPS).

The highest DPS is generated using almost the exact same reforging scheme as backstab. The ONLY difference in practice is the talent tree, and never hitting backstab.

ADDED LINKS:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...5#post16167245 (not terribly useful, but discusses some oddball possibilities)

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...mo-or-Backstab (the full discussion)

Obviously you've read the initial discussion, but I don't believe anything's changed. Hemo with legendaries and BiS gear is not a significant loss, so if you want to do it, go ahead, but why? I'm playing sub so I have something to do, rather than numbingly pressing SS/RvS/Evis. I haven't seen math for the legendary daggers causing hemo to approach backstab, although Ahdehl has seen decent use out of them in practice. I also haven't seen any math supporting a different stat weighting, but you're welcome to do new math.

[Fae]

You said it yourself. ShadowCraft does not model legendaries (and it's Subtlety model isn't perfect either). So we can't use it for moving talents around, observer stat weights and so on.

And thats exactly the reason why we have those threads popping around.

[Ryme]

As shown in threads listed, I did some very brief simulationcraft stuff with it. If we're to believe the modelling there is accurate, and for the most part it seems to be, then using hemo spam is pretty damn close to backstab - around 1-2% off which is about the same as combat's difference to backstab sub.

Talent tree is similar, though of course you skip points in Puncturing wounds and put them either in Initiative or Ruthlessness, I can't recall if I worked out which came out ahead but it seems obvious that 2/3 Ruthlessness beats 2/2 Initiative 1/3 ruthlessness every time.

As for stats, I got the following from a few 'quick' sims: Exp > Yellow Hit > Haste >= Spell Hit > Crit > Mastery > White Hit

[Mugajak]

As Ryme points out here and in the other thread, SimC DOES model it where SC doesn't, and the stat weights he's presenting came from there, modeling the proc. You can very easily do napkin math proof by running Hemo spec once, and comparing your eviscerates/sec from backstab to hemo, and seeing if the % of eviscerates gained is greater than the difference between mastery and crit and then some, because part of the value of mastery is for rupture and SnD, which still leave it low, but lower the gain for eviscerate.

As I recall (although I could be wrong), you don't end up using ~50% more eviscerates because of the legendary daggers.

[Ahdehl]

If I had to guess the reason for why Ahdehl's Hemo-Sub spec only has one point in Precision is because it only needs one point to make a Hemo-Sub spec viable. Yes, your poisons are going to proc less and your white melee hits have a bigger chance to miss, but (in theory) that "missing" damage is made up for by the other damage capabilities that Hemo-Sub offers.

The spec is pretty fun. With Combat reforging, it probably pulls better numbers than a Backstab-Sub spec.

I needed the 1pt in Precision to put me over 8% hit.

I've played around with it some more since last time, and it's a fun spec to play. It's really helpful in DS mostly because of having to run to the front of Morchok to soak stomps, and Ultraxion.

I played it last week in our Firelands sales run (since I FINALLY got a H Vial), and it was fun. The numbers were ridiculous as well.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-v9l1rj4fh4qrglt5/

[ripslyme]

you still wait for Hat Procs? cant imagine since you have so much energy with Hemospam

[Ahdehl]

There are still a lot of times where you are at 30 energy and only 3CP. Just pool energy, wait for 5(but don't energycap) and resume Eviscing everything.

[loki504]

if you don't hve the legandary yet. is it better to use a sword/mace or still a dagger?
any1 tested that?

[Sesshou]

if you don't hve the legandary yet. is it better to use a sword/mace or still a dagger?
any1 tested that?

I have nothing really to back this up, but I'm pretty sure that for a hemo only spec no'kaled is going to be better than using the non p2/3 daggers. That proc is still incredibly good as sub

[Xanjori]

It's really helpful in DS mostly because of having to run to the front of Morchok to soak stomps,

First up, ? As long as you are in the middle of the bosses hit box, and the rest of your side arent hugging his face, you can soak just fine without being in front of him.

Secondly I was surprised by how strong your numbers were in those parses, although you had DI and then a 75% crit chance on Evisc, which undoubtedly must have skewed it a bit. Have you run Baleroc as Backstab spec lately for comparison? I mean in comparison to your first Baleroc wipe where Evisc had a much more realistic 55.7% crit chance you were nearly 7000 DPS lower, or was there something in play there that we're not seeing on the log? (Well I changed the page to where it looks about just before you start wiping and the DPS is dropping, and your DPS is 55k up to that point.) In which case we're still talking that 25% more crit on Evisc gaining you over 3k DPS.

And I was curious on the SC modelling you did, how does that modelling work for both the glyphs and the T12 2pc? I know that Hemo as an ability is very close on DPE to Backstab, but the glyphs must be massively in favour of the BS while I was under the impression that the higher crit and damage on BS would work better with the T12 set bonus (as it appears to work off all abilities that crit, not just whites.)

And finally (!) your gear, I noticed you went slightly different from the norm with using the T12 head and Morchok shoulders, Shadowcraft was showing a whooping 3 DPS gain with the standard config, so was it just a case of using what you had to hand or is there something SC was missing? Just curious.

Ok the finally failed because I am very curious (apologies!) but I grabbed a random high log from Morchok quickly to compare to yours just on abilities used. Taking http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rxck4...3/?s=402&e=600 as it was only 5 seconds shorter than your own fight, you only get out 10 more Hemos than he does Backstabs, and while this does translate into an extra proc, it would be a close thing seeing as in total you only gained 19 more stacks from the daggers. Although now Im wondering how he got off 50 more white attacks than you, as thats a rather large amount.

Well I hope you can give me some answers, I am indeed very curious!

[Ahdehl]

First up, ? As long as you are in the middle of the bosses hit box, and the rest of your side arent hugging his face, you can soak just fine without being in front of him.

God, i wish... If I'm not standing on top of the tank someone else soaks it.

I only got 10 more Hemos, but I got 12 more Eviscerates.

Also, his melee swings hit more often than mine because of his Starcatcher Compass.

Hemo-spam is behind the normal rotation in a vacuum, I just use it in DS because I get to do it on Ultraxion. I'll probably play Combat next week.

*edit - Also, lol, Battle Chicken ><

[Xanjori]

Ah ok, well that explains some, I did try to check his armoury but he was combat and I forgot to check buff gains for his compass.

Also its slightly nice to hear of a top guild also has the people that just cant seem to avoid that wrong spot everynow and again :P

[rewynd]

Played around with it in LFR yesterday and it is a fun spec to play. As far as how competitive the dps is idk. I pretty much had more energy then I knew what to do with most of the time and balancing energy capping with hat. You evis so often you pretty much dont have to worry about rupture.

[niteline]

I have been sub for ever and i dont have that feeling with combat. Combat gives me around 4-5k more dps on ultraxxion (using 403 madness axe and 4p)
On ultrax 10m normal in a not melee favored group i pull around 35k dps with hemo spam and stage 1 daggers (havnt played ultraxx since i got stage 2)
Using 2p T12 and i dont have vial (pretty good for that fight)
I honestly think a full hemo build aint viable even with ambushes. I do vanish to get the MoS buff when possible on ultraxx.

The best thing is probbably to get 4 piece for the extra shadow dance. Hemo ain't hitting hard enough to keep T12 imho.

[Carp The Fish]

No'kaled is not good for a Hemo-Sub spec. When I was trying it last month (Stage 2 dagger OH), it didn't pull any better than Sleeper/Dreamer. The agility buff (since it stacks so quickly as Sub) tends to be more beneficial than the 250-400k damage that Nok generates.

[Ahdehl]

THIS SPEC IS ONLY DECENT WITH THE LEGENDARIES

Do not even try it without them, the results will be shit.