1. #1

    3482 Haste (if DI is available) worth it?

    At current gear levels, it seems that the threshold of 3482 haste is not hardly reachable.
    Assuming one has a secure DI in most or all raids, do you consider aiming for such an amount, a good choice?

    PS:
    3482 haste + DI = 9th tick of SWP

  2. #2
    Shadow Word: Pain tick thresholds are completely meaningless on a patchwerk encounter, and tick thresholds in general for a shadow priest are nearly negligible DPS bumps.

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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by FiL134 View Post
    At current gear levels, it seems that the threshold of 3482 haste is not hardly reachable.
    Assuming one has a secure DI in most or all raids, do you consider aiming for such an amount, a good choice?

    PS:
    3482 haste + DI = 9th tick of SWP
    An increase in the number of ticks increases the DPET of the spell quite significantly, but only applies to dots that needs to be manually refreshed. Extra ticks on VT and DP are important because we have to manually refresh them. Since SW:P is auto refreshed, DPET is meaningless.

    Hence not worth it.

    If you don't understand what I mean above, then think about it this way. What is the point of adding an extra tick at the end of the dot, when it will be refreshed a LOT sooner before it actually ends.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by zsun View Post
    An increase in the number of ticks increases the DPET of the spell quite significantly, but only applies to dots that needs to be manually refreshed. Extra ticks on VT and DP are important because we have to manually refresh them. Since SW:P is auto refreshed, DPET is meaningless.

    Hence not worth it.

    If you don't understand what I mean above, then think about it this way. What is the point of adding an extra tick at the end of the dot, when it will be refreshed a LOT sooner before it actually ends.
    I understand perfectly well what you mean, but I beg to differ. The tick is not added "at the end of the dot" as you say. The duration of SWP remains the same (in fact, if anything, it becomes sorter) - its just that during that duration it manages to tick once more. So it is not necessary to not refresh it and get to the "end" of it, in order to enjoy the advantages of the extra tick.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by FiL134 View Post
    I understand perfectly well what you mean, but I beg to differ. The tick is not added "at the end of the dot" as you say. The duration of SWP remains the same (in fact, if anything, it becomes sorter) - its just that during that duration it manages to tick once more. So it is not necessary to not refresh it and get to the "end" of it, in order to enjoy the advantages of the extra tick.
    Actually the duration is not the same.

    Lets take VT for example.

    At 2588 haste, VT still has +1 tick, which means 6 ticks in total. The total duration at this point is slightly under 14 seconds (Forgot exact duration but I am guessing around 13.7 seconds). At this point the duration between each tick is around 2.28 seconds (again this may not be exactly accurate, but I am just writing hypothetically here). Now when you add 1 extra haste on top of that (ie. 2589 haste), the duration between each tick becomes 2.27 seconds (again hypothetical), with an extra tick added, bringing the total duration to somewhere just under 16 seconds. Since VT needs to be manually refreshed, it is always better to have a haste level where the duration of VT is at its maximum (ie. just under 16 seconds).

    However when you take Shadow Word: Pain for example, the difference between 2.28 second ticks and 2.27 second ticks is meaningless since it never needs to be refreshed, under patchwerk circumstances. Basically what I am trying to say is, if a dot is auto refreshed long before it expires, then there is no point to have it at its maximum possible duration.

    Just keep in mind that the numbers I used above are purely hypothetical and may not be accurate, just using it to get my point across.
    Last edited by zsun; 2012-04-20 at 08:45 AM.

  6. #6
    You are right but your theoretical numbers that show a non-significant reduction in tick time are wrong.

    In practice, @2.6k haste, SWP duration is around 18.5secs roughly. That is 2.3 secs/tick.
    @3482, 19secs. That is 2.1secs/tick.

    Now per tick this is not a 0.01 difference as you suggest but it still may seem kinda low. However, it is important to consider when (on average, and taking into account the 60% chance that MF will refresh it) SWP is refreshed. If for instance it is refreshed every 6.5 seconds then that translates into 3 ticks @3482+DI but only 2 ticks @2589. So in that (and all equivalent) occasions you do benefit from the extra tick, even though you have not waited for SWP to fall off.

    Also, the occasions in which you actually let SWP fall off must be taken into account. Instances may include: a 'wing tentacle' which you DoT whilst jumping platforms in madness heroic, a twilight assault drake which you dot at the beginning of the Warmaster heroic fight, a twilight assault drake which dps fails to kill in one grip and flies away, a situation in which the distance between Korchom and Morchok for some reason becomes larger than 80 yards so you cannot DoT both, a wrongly timed and unexpected kill on the mana void in yorsahj which results in very low mana, a long grip by the corruption on spine heroic, always when hagara goes into frost or lightning phase, a long icetomb on hagara, etc!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by FiL134 View Post
    You are right but your theoretical numbers that show a non-significant reduction in tick time are wrong.

    In practice, @2.6k haste, SWP duration is around 18.5secs roughly. That is 2.3 secs/tick.
    @3482, 19secs. That is 2.1secs/tick.

    Now per tick this is not a 0.01 difference as you suggest but it still may seem kinda low. However, it is important to consider when (on average, and taking into account the 60% chance that MF will refresh it) SWP is refreshed. If for instance it is refreshed every 6.5 seconds then that translates into 3 ticks @3482+DI but only 2 ticks @2589. So in that (and all equivalent) occasions you do benefit from the extra tick, even though you have not waited for SWP to fall off.
    Yes, the difference between a 2.3 second tick at 2.6k haste and 2.1 second tick at 3.5k haste is indeed big, and the numbers are probably more accurate than the ones I gave for VT in my previous post. But you are starting to move away from the point of your original post. What you simply said in this part of the post is simply comparing SWP between 2 arbitrary levels of haste. Keep in mind your original post asks if it is worth it to actually reach this threshold, to which I replied that due to the fact that you dont need to refresh it all the time, the DPET and maximum duration of the dot is meaningless, hence SWP thresholds also become meaningless. Remember that even at 3481 haste, 1 point below the threshold, SWP can still probably sneak in 3 ticks before Mind Flay refreshes it.

    The way I look at SWP is a dot that never expires, except for during those situations you mentioned above, and maybe some other ones too. But those are just situations. The only thing haste does to it is to lower its frequency. And your argument about Mind Flay sneaking in an extra tick before refresh is only valid if dot refresh mechanics still work the way they do back in WOTLK. But since they revamped all the dot refreshing mechanics in cata, that argument is no longer valid. Even if a third tick got snuck in before Mind Flay refreshed it, the next tick wont come until a little while later. Whereas if the third tick didnt make it in before the refresh, then that tick will come immediately after the refresh.

    Quote Originally Posted by FiL134 View Post
    Also, the occasions in which you actually let SWP fall off must be taken into account. Instances may include: a 'wing tentacle' which you DoT whilst jumping platforms in madness heroic, a twilight assault drake which you dot at the beginning of the Warmaster heroic fight, a twilight assault drake which dps fails to kill in one grip and flies away, a situation in which the distance between Korchom and Morchok for some reason becomes larger than 80 yards so you cannot DoT both, a wrongly timed and unexpected kill on the mana void in yorsahj which results in very low mana, a long grip by the corruption on spine heroic, always when hagara goes into frost or lightning phase, a long icetomb on hagara, etc!
    Although these are all valid example situations, those are still just situations, and not the general picture. While I do concede those the thresholds may have an advantage during those situations, however in general, like I said earlier, it is still not worth it to reach that threshold.
    Last edited by zsun; 2012-04-20 at 09:48 AM.

  8. #8
    I think SWP tick points are pretty meaningless and not worth sacrificing 280 Mastery to reach it. You're probably better off sticking with the 3202 Haste and getting Mastery after that.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by FiL134 View Post
    You are right but your theoretical numbers that show a non-significant reduction in tick time are wrong.

    In practice, @2.6k haste, SWP duration is around 18.5secs roughly. That is 2.3 secs/tick.
    @3482, 19secs. That is 2.1secs/tick.

    Now per tick this is not a 0.01 difference as you suggest but it still may seem kinda low. However, it is important to consider when (on average, and taking into account the 60% chance that MF will refresh it) SWP is refreshed. If for instance it is refreshed every 6.5 seconds then that translates into 3 ticks @3482+DI but only 2 ticks @2589.
    No.

    The fact that MF refreshes SW: P does not mean that it reset every time it does. That would be a huge dps drop for us and it have never ever worked like that.
    You will, if you have more haste, have more ticks from SW: P during a shorter period but as it's a dot that will have a 100% uptime (unless you are bad and should play something else) that's never ever going to be a dps gain against any other stat more than hit over the cap.
    Reaching a haste platue on VP and DP gives will give you the advatage of not needing to waste a global on casting it once in a while, saving perhaps up to 20 globals druing a shorter fight which can be directly translated to more MF=more SFs=more orb procs etcetc.
    Reaching a haste platue on SW: P will never ever in your life be worth anything more than the extra 3k damage it will do while running pass the tentacle once in a whole 15min fight as you do on madness heroic.

    And wasting 280ish mastery to get to that very 3k extra damage on a 15min fight (~3dps) will never ever be worth it. Not to even consider the 20% extra bonus you already have on said fight that will make this platue even less important (aka, you already have the plaue and you're perhaps closing in to another but most likely not).

    Furthermore no drake on any heroic boss will ever go down because you can have a 2 seccond longer SW: P on it dealin 3k extra damage, your money is safer on the ~2% extra dot damage you will do with the extra 280 mastery that will help you kill everything and everyone all the time instead of just the dead 5 secconds the drakes are out of range.

    Deal with it.

  10. #10
    Waste of mastery. Don't do it.

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