Expertise, really?

[bandet]

Except this thread isn't just from a PvP point of view. This impact has no effect in PVE, which is what I said. I assume you agree, cause you quoted me for no other reason than to cry about PvP when I clearly stated my view from a PVE standpoint.

No one really cares about PvE in this situation, since we CAN simply stand behind the boss in that scenario. It only becomes a problem in PvP.

[Juicebox]

No one really cares about PvE in this situation, since we CAN simply stand behind the boss in that scenario. It only becomes a problem in PvP.

And I only adressed it from a PVE point of view, seeing there IS people crying about it in PVE.
I see the issue hunters gets in PVP, but meh. I like them getting a bit shafted for some reason, perhaps because of how their community is.

[bandet]

And I only adressed it from a PVE point of view, seeing there IS people crying about it in PVE.
I see the issue hunters gets in PVP, but meh. I like them getting a bit shafted for some reason, perhaps because of how their community is.

Maybe if we weren't constantly being shafted over the past 6 years (with things like this), and consistently being ignored and responded to with disdain (by people like you), and have all our logical arguments being lowered by people with sub-human levels of IQ to a "L2P" issue, we would be a bit nicer.

[Juicebox]

Maybe if we weren't constantly being shafted over the past 6 years (with things like this), and consistently being ignored and responded to with disdain (by people like you), and have all our logical arguments being lowered by people with sub-human levels of IQ to a "L2P" issue, we would be a bit nicer.

Good thing you're living up to the expectations on the hunter community. Snap out of it, post some good feed back on official forums and try comming up with work-arounds for what's being thrown at you. Hunters being shafted for 6 years? What game have you been playing?

[Deathgoose]

No one really cares about PvE in this situation, since we CAN simply stand behind the boss in that scenario. It only becomes a problem in PvP.

Except standing behind a boss in PvE is meaningless as a hunter for hit purposes, because he can still dodge your attacks unless you stack Expertise. Standing behind only negates parry in PvE, and you can't be parried as a Hunter

I actually understand what you're saying, and while I don't agree with all of it, I definitely agree with the portion about not being penalized on your resource gaining ability against a high dodge target, and they should be changed to gained on fire instead of gained on hit.

However, given how much misinformation is abounding in this thread, these kind of things detract from others trying to understand your point.

[Cyph3r]

I think bandet's contention is not that we should be equalized as melee, but equalized as ranged. Another ranged class cannot be dodged or parried, they can only miss or be resisted, which are hard caps of hit/spell pen which can be easily reached. Or they can be immuned/interrupted/LoSed. All these mechanics currently exist for hunters as well (as ranged, and WE HAVE to cast our cast time stuff to regenerate resources, whereas a mage can spam ice lance while focused, a lock has two instant dots and fel flame, etc), but now we're getting the additional detriment of being dodged by high-dodge classes.

This,

But mostly, there is a reason ranged attacks can't be dodged:
The dodge mechanic isn't designed to work that way.

In PvP, the way you counter dodge is by standing behind the target. There is no practical way for a ranged class to do that, therefore we are unable to take advantage of the mechanic which is built in to balance dodge RNG, while other classes that are subjected to dodges are. It is a double-standard.

And that's where I disagree with you on a fundemental level. You can't compare us to the other ranged classes because we are simply not the same. Any and all changes to Hunter mechanics need to be analyzed in regard to other classes/archetypes, but not directly compared to them. We are NOT casters, the same rules do not apply. Just as we are NOT a melee class.

You're primary argument seems to be "other ranged classes don't worry about dodge, and that's unfair". Simple fact of the matter is that every single one of the PHYSICAL ranged classes have to deal with this now. Oh wait, that's just us. This is nothing new, we've always been a standout. We have the only ranged auto-attack, we're (currently) the only class with a minimum range requirement. We're the only class who can attack from 40 yards out and rely on a SINGLE cast attack to keep our resources up, which is a short cast, which has no cooldown, which we can cast on the move. We are alone.

You also keep pointing out the ease with which the melee classes can get behind their targets in PvP. I'm just not seeing that. Rogues, yes, as well as Ferals, who are just mini-Rogues. They have lots of tools that are intended to do just that, get them behind a target, because they have attacks with facing requirements. None of the strength based melee have tools to get behind someone, other than just running behind them. I don't know about you, but unless I'm stunned, I tend to fight my attackers face to face. Melee has to deal with dodge in pvp, they do NOT negate it with the degree of success that you're implying.

Furthermore, you yourself acknowledge that Blizzard is aware of these potential problems. You also acknowledge that we are balanced around all of our stats (see negative crit argument). And that highly important attacks such as scatter shot will likely be un-dodgeable. You've actually provided pretty good evidence that everything is going to be fine, and yet you're still raging at how "unfair" it all is. It has nothing to do with fairness, or being neglected, or double standards. It's a change that fixes several problems present in the system, and brings the class in line with the others in terms of stat requirements. And even we're STILL a special case, in that we're basically being treated like melee now, except we're the only physical class who doesn't have to worry about parry. See, Blizzard knows we're in a category all our own, and need special consideration.

So if you're just raging because of a perceived bias against us, before seeing how they intend to balance out this new change, then I'm done with this conversation. Several people have pointed out that there is merit in some of the things you say, some of us (myself included) agree with you on some of the basics here. And yet you continue to rage.

One final note: Twice now you've used the term "ranged attacks aren't designed to be dodged", as though Blizzard is breaking some fundemental part of the combat system, and there's no possible way to recover from this. I'd just like to point out that they're the ones who designed it to be undodgeable, and now they're changing that design. They've made some pretty big changes to the combat system in the past, and it works better today than ever before.

[bandet]

You still haven't brought up how it is nearly impossible for a ranged class to stand behind the target to counter dodge. Melee have the option, we don't.

Which is the only thing I have ever been complaining about in this thread.

[tapout1224]

People tend to forget that melee get hard hitting talents that cant be dodged or parried when they get dodged. Also alot of the talents in talent tree are based around the fact blizz knows they are going to have problems with being dodged parried so theres some added bonuses to make up for this.

Hunters get crap as of now. This is how melee get around having to stack expertise and its not a huge deal.

PvP Yes hunters are going to be screwed with out abilities that cant be dodged or parried if were in front of the target which we mainly are OR kiting like crazy which means we are straiffing.

So in short Hunters are not in a good place right now till blizzard fixes this.

[bandet]

Why is it such a bad idea to simply make hunter hit cap higher, if that is what they are concerned about.

As for enhance shaman gear.. Isn't that was reforging was made for? I don't see the problem, if they need gear with expertise they don't need to go change our entire class so they don't have to design two different belts, they can just have one, and enh shamans can reforge it.

[Atlanis]

hardly matters. Warriors can't shout/thunderclap when interrupted. Might even be more those are just the ones I know.

As people have said, who cares if you have to get 5% hit & 5% expertise or 10% hit it's the same either way.

So wait...not being able to cast our primary damage ability hardly matters because warriors can't refresh their strength/stam buff or use thunderclap while silenced? What?

No, it isn't the same. We can get 10% hit easily, and we need significantly more than 5% dodge to outdo Rogues/Ferals and even other Hunters. We'd need at least 8-10% to deal with hunters and 25-35% to deal with rogues and ferals.

[Deathgoose]

You still haven't brought up how it is nearly impossible for a ranged class to stand behind the target to counter dodge. Melee have the option, we don't.

Which is the only thing I have ever been complaining about in this thread.

If this is the only thing you are complaining about in PvP, you say it like it is a foregone conclusion that the melee will automatically be behind their target. Do you honestly believe that melee can stay behind their target 100% of the time? If they do, then either:

1) Their target is stunned, which means they won't be dodging/parrying/blocking anything
2) Their target is so woefully inexperienced to even rotate their mouse to face their attacker so as to even be able to hit the guy attacking them, that if they are able to stay behind them 100% of the time, inability to dodge is the least of their issues.

Or how about this, 2 equally geared/skilled rogues meet in combat. Which one of them is attacking from behind? Because you make the argument like this is some kind of a perma-buff melee has, where they are automatically behind their target.

Point is, they aren't. Sometimes they slip behind in the endless dance of circling, sometimes they don't, and sometimes the other guy is behind them!

[redsunrising15]

I don't understand all the whining about being dodged.

I'm all for expertise personally, all it means is there's more gear I can use. Bosses won't dodge by abilities because I have expertise, what's the problem?

PvP. Ferals. Rogues. Wtb instant cast scare beast and no cloak of shadows hunter's mark.

[bandet]

"•Ranged attacks will be able to be dodged. Hunters will benefit from expertise and will have it on their gear, which will also allow hunters and Enhancement shaman to share gear more easily."

Note it says DODGED, not parried. Also read that: "•We are normalizing melee and spell hit, so that spell miss is equal to melee miss plus dodge. " So you are equalized vs Casters.

Okay, I read this..

Now, that seems fair.

As I have previously said, however much I don't like my attacks being dodged, I would be fine with it if other ranged attacks can be dodged as well. Apparently, they can.

However, the mechanic works differently, as read in the previously linked post...

The real question is the spell hit set to a static number based upon what you are fighting, or it is actually dynamic and will change

So, basically, will the "hit cap" for casters in PvP simply become 9%, 6% spell miss + 3% melee dodge, for a same-level player/creature.. but the question beckons do they simply set the 3%, or will it change as the opponent gets more dodge.

If so, it is fair and we are equally shafted with the other casters. If it doesn't scale based upon the targets dodge and is just a static number, it isn't.


However, either way, steady/cobra shot needs to regenerate focus on CAST not on hit, or they need to be undodgeable, because that part is just cruel.

[eschatological]

I think spell miss will be simply double melee miss, and the difference is dodge. The numbers they provided for boss level mobs (+3 levels) for capping were 15% hit for casters, 7.5% hit, 7.5% expertise. Expertise is now normallized to a percentage, not an arbitrary value like 26.

I imagine for PvP it'd be something like spell hit to cap will be 8% ish, melee hit 4%, expertise 4%.

[Atlanis]

I think spell miss will be simply double melee miss, and the difference is dodge. The numbers they provided for boss level mobs (+3 levels) for capping were 15% hit for casters, 7.5% hit, 7.5% expertise. Expertise is now normallized to a percentage, not an arbitrary value like 26.

I imagine for PvP it'd be something like spell hit to cap will be 8% ish, melee hit 4%, expertise 4%.

There is no expertise cap in pvp

[RandomGamer]

OK, what about bullets? something that leaves a barrel at over 2000 fps (thats feet per second, not frames) from a distance of 30 yards arrives in under 1/10th of a second.

It's called the matrix bullet effect. They are easy to dodge 'cause they are not really there.

(Why people still try to apply real world rules to an imaginary environment?)

BTW

Hunters being able to wear expertise gear is good thing.
Hunters being balanced on secondary stats make them easier to be balanced overall, and that's a good thing.

Of course the hunter community has always been the most loud of all the class representation and any changes good or bad will always be called upon as the worst thing that ever happened and it's all personal attacks of blizzard towards YOU.

[bandet]

It's called the matrix bullet effect. They are easy to dodge 'cause they are not really there.

(Why people still try to apply real world rules to an imaginary environment?)

If my bullets are imaginary, I'm going to imagine them to be undodgeable.

[Mizael]

So, basically, will the "hit cap" for casters in PvP simply become 9%, 6% spell miss + 3% melee dodge, for a same-level player/creature.. but the question beckons do they simply set the 3%, or will it change as the opponent gets more dodge.

Hit cap for spells in PvP will be 6%. Spells and ranged attacks is a different things. Spells can't be dodged, so opponents dodge chance doesn't affect spell hit cap.

[bandet]

Hit cap for spells in PvP will be 6%. Spells and ranged attacks is a different things. Spells can't be dodged, so opponents dodge chance doesn't affect spell hit cap.

Yes it does, actually. Read the link. Spell hit cap is equal to melee hit cap + melee dodge chance.

Ergo, It would be 6%, but suppose you were fighting a rogue with 20% dodge, it would be 23% hit cap. (At least that is how they seem to explain it).




Seems they are bringing RNG back to the party in MoP. Not the best of ideas.

[Ohleemar]

Again, no one is debating that hunters needed more stats to need.

We are saying that dodge as a mechanic is not made to work for ranged attacks. The only way to counter dodge in PvP is not available to hunters because we use ranged attacks. I cannot be expected to run behind a target every single time they face me, while I am 20 yards away. What do I do? Run 40 yards to be on the other side of them? Oh, wait.. they just turned again.

That's why you get the expertise cap. OMG! No problem now!