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  1. #141
    The Patient
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    Makes complete sense to keep us on par with other classes and for quality of life with gear distribution in MOP.
    I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by dmburton View Post
    Makes complete sense to keep us on par with other classes and for quality of life with gear distribution in MOP.
    We already are on par with other classes, and this change lowers our quality of life.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyph3r View Post
    Ok, simple question: Do you think that Hunters are going to be at a severe PvP disadvantage because of this change? As I previously stated, I'm aware and accept that there's basically no way to prevent at least some of our attacks from being dodged under the new expertise model. If this change goes live (which I fully expect it will, like it or not), we WILL have to deal with something we never have in PvP before. But how big an effect do you expect this to actually have on us?
    Dodged scatter shot when you need it to save your healer or cc one enemy to kill another can cost you whole arena game sometime, for example. Or dodged aimed\chimera\explosive can brake your burst which otherwise will be able to kill enemy.
    Last edited by Mizael; 2012-04-24 at 07:50 PM.

  4. #144
    Epic! Demetrion's Avatar
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    The reason they did this is for easier distribution of Mail gear between hunters and enhancement shamans (who struggle to get expertise capped with the current itemization).

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrion View Post
    The reason they did this is for easier distribution of Mail gear between hunters and enhancement shamans (who struggle to get expertise capped with the current itemization).

    Because it is SO hard to just have more expertise on enhance tier gear, or something.


    I like how my CLASS gets nerfed to the ground for QoL changes to other SPECS.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-24 at 05:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mizael View Post
    Dodged scatter shot when you need it to save your healer or cc one enemy to kill another can cost you whole arena game sometime, for example. Or dodged aimed\chimera\eplosive can brake your burst which otherwise will be able to kill enemy.
    We are going to assume that blizzard isn't THAT stupid (they are pretty stupid..) and that scatter shot, won't be dodgeable at least. A lot of melee attacks that provide cc's are undodgeable.

    So that isn't the problem, the problem is how there is a huge disparity between hunters and all the other ranged because of this. Dodging ranged attacks makes no sense, as the only way to counter dodge in PvP is to stand behind the target.

  6. #146
    Dreadlord DerSenf's Avatar
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    I love how some people claim that dodging ranged attacks is unrealistic when hunter's arrows magically follow their target while moving.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by bandet View Post
    ....
    Think about it, how does a melee counter dodge? They attack from behind. How does a hunter counter dodge? We.. uh.. well, I am 40 yards away. I guess I just have to hope the enemy backpedals towards me while I kite?

    They just aren't thinking about hunters in PvP, as usual.
    they attack from behind to counter parry not dodge. parry is only from front dodge is 360

  8. #148
    Dreadlord Ashe-Arathor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutiouk View Post
    Hunters are being given expertise so they can put some on mail gear, enhance shamans need it. There's no real reason to NOT have you use 1 more stat that all other physical classes are using so it's used. Would you rather see expertise on gear that's decent or haste/crit/hit/whatever-was-useless-in cata that you don't want?

    At this point your arguing you don't want it because it's change and change is bad. You assume they won't ensure your dps is still balanced around enemies dodging shots. It simplifies mail agi itemisation and does nothing to damage you ergo it's a positive change.
    I gladly welcome change, change is good. I just don't think expertise is the way to go. I can understand that Blizzard would be lazy and drop expertise on hunters because it makes it easier for both hunters AND enhancement shamans to gear up, seeing as they will be needing the same stats.

    I am perfectly sure that Blizzard will find some way around the dodge mechanic so that hunter dps doesn't drop like a sack of shit from the 13th floor, that doesn't change the fact that expertise for hunters makes no sense what so ever, unless they chose to give us a melee focused spec.

    I'm not arguing how it would work, I'm arguing that it shouldn't be there at all. If expertise still works as it does now, there's absolutely no reason hunters should have it other than to handicap them. Giving us another stat to max is fine, but I'd rather see us max something that doesn't seem completely pointless from a class design perspective. Until they give us a straight up reason for hunters using expertise - that makes sense - then I will be against it.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-24 at 08:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mizael View Post
    Dodged scatter shot when you need it to save your healer or cc one enemy to kill another can cost you whole arena game sometime, for example. Or dodged aimed\chimera\eplosive can brake your burst which otherwise will be able to kill enemy.
    Pretty much voiced my thoughts for me, thank you sir.
    If people can dodge ranged burst abilities, it will only manage to further cripple hunters who are already in a bad state as it is.
    Last edited by Ashe-Arathor; 2012-04-24 at 05:58 PM.
    "I CAN USE MYSELF AS A BLOCK" - Mike B aka Fony, Platforming Master

  9. #149
    It seems to me about the only further change that should be be is to make SS/CS give the focus back upon being fired, not upon being hit. That will fix the major "unfairness" factor in PvP, which is potentially being resource starved against unusually high dodge classes, like rogue/ferals. Additionally, if the attack fails to land, don't have it cost as much focus, similar to how a DK's runes aren't used up if it doesn't land, and rogue/feral energy cost is lower on a failed hit.

    As far as losing out on some damage because now they can be dodged, that's just tough rocks. Get some expertise.
    Last edited by Deathgoose; 2012-04-24 at 06:29 PM.

  10. #150
    As soon as my positional and/or weapon requirements are removed I'll feel bad for you.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by asharia View Post
    Dumb change.

    They should keep some variety in the game
    long gone after tbc

  12. #152
    The Lightbringer Buutch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandet View Post
    Because axes travel slower than arrows, ergo it is easier to dodge?




    Now, I am not saying the fact that hunters only needed 8% hit while everyone else needed so much more wasn't stupid, but making hunter shots dodgeable is just a completely retarded thing to do.

    Think about it, how does a melee counter dodge? They attack from behind. How does a hunter counter dodge? We.. uh.. well, I am 40 yards away. I guess I just have to hope the enemy backpedals towards me while I kite?

    They just aren't thinking about hunters in PvP, as usual.
    bears having up to 60% dodge should be able to dodge arrows, because, if you got that much dodge irl, you would be able to dodge pretty much everything.

  13. #153
    "I do not understand why this change is being made, and am too belligerently narcissistic to care, anyway" != "this is a bad change"

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by skrump View Post
    Your also the only agility class that can hit it's target from 30+ yards away while having several tools to keep them away from you.

    As for missing 25% of your shots, welcome to the club, the rest of us had the same thing happen when expertise was first introduced but unlike you we didnt have reforging or using offset pieces of another class to compensate, while you can easily start picking up offset enhancement shammy pieces to prepare yourself for the release of mop.

    Though to be honest I have never been a fan of expertise and always thought it should be removed from the game.
    We're also the only agility class without a purely defensive CD that doesn't shut down our offense. We're also the only agility class that barely reach over the amount of expertise a melee class gets from their PvP set (resulting in an effective 3-4% dodge chance, if that). We're also the only agility class that loses all of their resources when dodged. We're also the only agility class that can have its resource generation shut down with an interrupt.

    Hunters have plenty of disadvantages. You can't justify everything by saying "range! range! range!". Yes, we can shoot from a mile away (at least, compared to where melee can hit), but we have penalties for that already.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Buutch View Post
    bears having up to 60% dodge should be able to dodge arrows, because, if you got that much dodge irl, you would be able to dodge pretty much everything.

    Then why can't a person with said amount of dodge dodge a frostbolt?


    Until you answer that, your argument is void.

  16. #156
    The Patient Volbian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandet View Post
    Then why can't a person with said amount of dodge dodge a frostbolt?


    Until you answer that, your argument is void.
    All ranged attacks will be dodged, even a Mage's frostbolt. They will need expertise just like Hunters. Why you dwelling on one ranged class, if affects all ranged.

    This arguement is going nowhere

  17. #157
    Mechagnome LolretKJ's Avatar
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    If they would have gotten rid of expertise then they might as well have removed hit as well.
    I'm glad they didn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proberly View Post
    Oh would you now? It truly is amazing how many heroic people we have wasting their time on internet.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by bandet View Post
    So then, following that logic, we should make frostbolt dodgeable too?

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-24 at 03:32 PM ----------



    This is exactly what I'm saying.

    PEOPLE LISTEN:

    Hunters have a NEGATIVE base critical chance. That means that, wearing no gear, your critical chance is actually in the NEGATIVE.


    That has no actual effect, you don't shoot the guy for half damage or anything, but what it means is that you need to gain the necessary amount of crit before you start getting ANY benefit from critical chance.

    They do this to BALANCE the fact that we require less hit rating. The stat points that would otherwise go into hit are subtracted from our crit rating. In some ways, this ends up being better (like when everyone is undergeared, which is one of the reasons why hunters do so well at start of expansions). In the long run, when everyone has hit cap, it is balanced.

    So, adding expertise will really not "balance those lame ass hunters who got away with it". We are already balanced around it, you just didn't know about it.


    This change will ONLY do two things:

    1. Give Hunters an unfair penalty compared to EVERY other ranged class in the game.
    2. Allow the devs to be lazy when it comes to designing gear.



    I, for one, don't want my class to suffer because the devs are too lazy to do the job they get paid to do.


    That is all.
    Wait.. what? Casters need 15% hit in beta if I'm not mistaken to be hit capped. Hunters need 7.5% hit and 7.5% expertise. HOW is it an unfair penalty? Because you need a stat not called "hit"? Would you rather, instead of having expertise, just need 15% hit like, and to quote you, "EVERY other ranged class in the game." Do you really want to have thinner gear selection (Because since Enhance sham's need expertise you can't roll on any of their gear, nor can you roll on any rings or necks with expertise)? Seriously, I'm confused at how it's "unfair" when it's EXACTLY the same thing (incase you suck at math: 7.5 + 7.5 = 15, which is the same % casters need.. just of a different stat).

  19. #159
    High Overlord
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    Ahh, finally a hunter qq thread that isn't about losing a weapon slot and failing to realize everyone is losing range slot, and new bows/guns will have the stat weights so you lose nothing everyone else hasn't lost as well. Which is a useless stat stick slot.

    Yes, it sucks to have to have a new stat to gear around. But it's okay. The first instance (available at 85) is dropping 410 blues, the 2nd zone's quests give 399 greens and 419 blues. Expertise/dodges wont matter much while leveling, and by the time any stats matter again, you'll be level 90, and gear will be there to help you.

    As pointed out above, caps are 5% for players, because other players are equal level. 5% for lv 90 mobs at lv 90, just as it is on live now for 85v85. Dodge scales down as well. players have 5% base dodge iirc so you wouldn't have to reach 8% expertise there either; though rogues and ferals will still be harder to hit since they stand around 40% or more at 85; assuming dodge from agility and the amount of agility on gear stays relatively the same.

    And in that sense, you do hurt. You hurt exactly the same as any other melee class in pvp does. Rogues & ferals aren't going to be totally free to hit for only your physical damage.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Volbian View Post
    All ranged attacks will be dodged, even a Mage's frostbolt. They will need expertise just like Hunters. Why you dwelling on one ranged class, if affects all ranged.

    This arguement is going nowhere
    Okay, I must have missed that notice. Hunters needing expertise, a stat that already shows up on some +agi gear, and will now be made possible on any +agi mail, may take an adjustment, but it makes sense. As so long as the resource generation of SS/CS is changed to "on fire" instead of "on hit", then it will lessen the painful part of the adjustment.

    But casters? I never saw this, since +exp shows up on NO +Int gear. Additionally, in PvE, they already need twice the +Hit against bosses that physical classes need, so why would they add +Exp as a requirement as well.

    In PvP, they lose the need to worry about +Spellpen (Which was largely capped with a single item, like a cloak), so I guess I can kind of understand the need to give them an itemization penalty in some other place, but I hadn't read anything about casters needing expertise.

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