A Diablo 3 Impression from a Long Time Blizzard Player

[PizzaSHARK]

Is it so hard to imagine that the reason your character can't use a bow is because...he can't use a bow? Maybe his fingers are too podgy for the teeny little arrows, or he can't shoot straight as he never learned because axes.

Is it so hard to imagine that for two games and something close to twenty full years of gaming, I could use any item I found, even if it wasn't really designed to be used by my class? They introduced a handful of unique class-specific items with Lord of Destruction, but that didn't stop a sorceress from equipping a spear or an amazon running around with an axe the size of her torso.

Stats still exist in D3, each class has a primary that is most effective for their damage dealing but all stats will offer some sort of mitigation (Str increases armour, Dex increases dodge, Int increases magic resistance, Vit increases HP). Initially you'll be customising your stats through gear but as you start getting class-specific sets you'll be more reliant on gems. Personally I think tying this in to crafting / farming / the player economy fits D3 better than simply paying in to a gold-sink to get the exact stat you want or having to reroll if you made a mistake many levels ago and can't change it.

Which means that stats will work like they do in WoW - basically pointless. You don't get to customize them, they're assigned to you whether you want to focus on STR for maximized damage or you'd rather pump VIT for more HP.

I could customize my stats for two full games and still had equipment that would boost specific stats based on prefixes and suffixes. Why the fuck would you remove something that's been a core component of the series for two full games? Because it'd confuse the console gamers?

Are you kidding? Supporting mods is a cheap way of gaining positive press amongst PC gamers as well as - like you said - extends the longevity of the game... for free. What investor wouldn't like the idea of having their product made better for free?

The idiots that fund Blizzard games, apparently. They've been doing their level best to murder the custom maps scene in SC2, and it's been working.

[Furye]

Is it so hard to imagine that for two games and something close to twenty full years of gaming, I could use any item I found, even if it wasn't really designed to be used by my class? They introduced a handful of unique class-specific items with Lord of Destruction, but that didn't stop a sorceress from equipping a spear or an amazon running around with an axe the size of her torso.

Please, tell me how it was relevant in the first two installments of the game to equip things you're not even supposed to equip in the first place? It's like saying ''WHY THE HELL CAN'T I EQUIP THAT RING ON MY FOOT OR THAT PAIR OF GLOVES ON MY HEAD''. Sure, in real life you can. But it's silly, useless and there's no point in doing so. Moving on.

Which means that stats will work like they do in WoW - basically pointless. You don't get to customize them, they're assigned to you whether you want to focus on STR for maximized damage or you'd rather pump VIT for more HP.
I could customize my stats for two full games and still had equipment that would boost specific stats based on prefixes and suffixes. Why the fuck would you remove something that's been a core component of the series for two full games? Because it'd confuse the console gamers?

Wait a minute, stats are pointless in WoW? I'm not sure I get your point there. You didn't really customize your stats on the character sheet in the first two games to start with. What has been said numerous times (and for a reason): those stats were pretty much the same as talent trees. Cookie cutter. If you ever truly played D2 you know you would get just the right amount of str and dex to wear your predefined gear, you'd get (if a shield wearer) as much dex as it takes for max shield blocking, energy was a waste and all the remaining points into vitality. Balancing those ? It's pretty much impossible since as long as you can stack one thing to the max, it'll obviously become overpowered over a more balanced build. It's simple design there. I invite you to watch those videos why they removed it. I bet you probably never watched their articulated answer on the matter.

Anyway, I don't even get why you're talking about console gamers in the first place. Are PC gamers some kind of elite and console gamers dumb people that can't grasp game mechanics? Is that what you're implying?

EDIT: And as a matter of fact, you still can customize the ''core'' stats with gear. By doing so, it limits you in stacking too much of one stat since you most likely won't benefit from the other stats of your items. Also, the fact you're wearing a limited amount of items helps in balancing it too.

The idiots that fund Blizzard games, apparently. They've been doing their level best to murder the custom maps scene in SC2, and it's been working.

The custom maps scene in SC2 is more than fine. They didn't murder anything.

You're overdramatizing and I think you're actually trying to find flaws where there's none. But I guess you are entitled to your opinion. But please, tell me you'll never design games.

[PizzaSHARK]

Please, tell me how it was relevant in the first two installments of the game to equip things you're not even supposed to equip in the first place? It's like saying ''WHY THE HELL CAN'T I EQUIP THAT RING ON MY FOOT OR THAT PAIR OF GLOVES ON MY HEAD''. Sure, in real life you can. But it's silly, useless and there's no point in doing so. Moving on.

Useless how? I take it you never did insane builds in D2 just to see how far you could get.

Because the game fucking LET you. This one won't, and there's no legitimate reason for it.

Wait a minute, stats are pointless in WoW? I'm not sure I get your point there. You didn't really customize your stats on the character sheet in the first two games to start with. What has been said numerous times (and for a reason): those stats were pretty much the same as talent trees. Cookie cutter. If you ever truly played D2 you know you would get just the right amount of str and dex to wear your predefined gear, you'd get (if a shield wearer) as much dex as it takes for max shield blocking, energy was a waste and all the remaining points into vitality. Balancing those ? It's pretty much impossible since as long as you can stack one thing to the max, it'll obviously become overpowered over a more balanced build. It's simple design there. I invite you to watch those videos why they removed it. I bet you probably never watched their articulated answer on the matter.

Holy shit, then you fucking balance out the stats, not completely remove that aspect of character customization. You do realize that there are plenty of mods for D2 that did that successfully, right? And it adds a lot of depth to designing a character? Depth D3 won't have?

Anyway, I don't even get why you're talking about console gamers in the first place. Are PC gamers some kind of elite and console gamers dumb people that can't grasp game mechanics? Is that what you're implying?

How else do you explain the latest iteration of Madden or NHL Hockey or FIFA Soccer selling a skillion copies even though it's almost always fundamentally the same as the previous version?

The custom maps scene in SC2 is more than fine. They didn't murder anything.

You're overdramatizing and I think you're actually trying to find flaws where there's none. But I guess you are entitled to your opinion. But please, tell me you'll never design games.

The custom maps scene in SC2 is garbage compared to previous Blizzard games. There people who are still making maps for War3 not because the War3 tools are better, but because of the absurd restrictions Blizzard is trying to place on mapmakers in SC2.

[Dhrizzle]

Is it so hard to imagine that for two games and something close to twenty full years of gaming, I could use any item I found, even if it wasn't really designed to be used by my class? They introduced a handful of unique class-specific items with Lord of Destruction, but that didn't stop a sorceress from equipping a spear or an amazon running around with an axe the size of her torso.

So? The fact is your barbarian hasn't got the slightest clue how to use a bow and no inclination to learn.

Which means that stats will work like they do in WoW - basically pointless. You don't get to customize them, they're assigned to you whether you want to focus on STR for maximized damage or you'd rather pump VIT for more HP.

I could customize my stats for two full games and still had equipment that would boost specific stats based on prefixes and suffixes. Why the fuck would you remove something that's been a core component of the series for two full games? Because it'd confuse the console gamers?

A magic "give me the stats I want" button isn't more complicated than collecting gear and gems to achieve the same thing.

The idiots that fund Blizzard games, apparently. They've been doing their level best to murder the custom maps scene in SC2, and it's been working.

How?

[Mormolyce]

I'm trying to pinpoint the source for this lack of exuberance in the game. I think it has to do with the overly streamlined feel. There are too many markers, signs, red flags, etc. telling you exactly what to do and exactly where to go. It almost feels like you are on a rail. WC3 suffered from this as well. Ultimately, when I play either game, it makes me feel like my hand is being held. I don't feel like I'm pushing through the content. I feel like I'm being pulled along for the ride. It really is too much streamlining. The only other weakness I can attribute to the lack of awesome feelings for the game is more fundamentally due to its being a sequel. Like WC3, Diablo 3 suffers from not having as many new ideas, new types of scenarios, new styles of gameplay as D2 and WC2 had compared to their predecessors. Aside from the 3D textures, it simply doesn't feel different enough from Diablo 2, and as I play the game, I feel as though I know exactly what to expect.

I agree with a lot of what you said about WC2 vs WC3, but I just want to point out that WC3 was a lot more different to WC2 than WC2 was different to WC1. WC2 just modified the units, improved the graphics and controls and apart from distinguishing land/sea/air units didn't alter much of the fundamentals of the original. WC3 was in effect a fusion game between the units-based gameplay of the earlier WCs (and StarCraft) and hero-based RPG elements like Heroes of M&M. I think that changed the fundamental gameplay a lot... in fact I thought one of the weak points of WC3 is that it did a good job of being a Warcraft game, and a good job of being a HoMM-style hero-based RTS but didn't really excel at either, felt like a bit of a compromise. WC3 is also the first WC to have more than two sides, and each side was very different - in WC2 there were few true differences between Alliance and Horde. Basically they imported a lot of the improvements they'd made to the genre in StarCraft. (I also LIKE WC3 but don't LOVE it like most of Blizzard's games... if anyone else had made it I'd say it was an awesome game but somehow I have ridiculously high standards for Blizzard - I guess that's their own fault :P).

Similarly Diablo II really didn't innovate a lot on Diablo, it just greatly increased the scope, made the spellbook more natural, balanced and fun by making it into skill trees instead, added a few neat additions like mercenaries, the Horadric Cube, gems, eventually runes... but under the hood it's the same randomly generated modern Roguelike the original was. In fact, in a way it had fewer features - in D1 the quests were randomly generated as well as the levels, I remember being a little miffed that the quests were the same on every playthrough in D2 :P

[Vulpei]

Useless how? I take it you never did insane builds in D2 just to see how far you could get.

Because the game fucking LET you. This one won't, and there's no legitimate reason for it.

So your complaint is that you can no longer make a broken toon for fun? You could just do it naked and be equivilent and the fix means that new players aren't completely fucked by putting points in stats that say they are good but turn out in the meta game to be useless.

[Furye]

Useless how? I take it you never did insane builds in D2 just to see how far you could get.

Because the game fucking LET you. This one won't, and there's no legitimate reason for it.

Your problem if you enjoy playing broken specs/builds. But you shouldn't positively judge a game's quality by its ability to generate broken mechanics.

Holy shit, then you fucking balance out the stats, not completely remove that aspect of character customization. You do realize that there are plenty of mods for D2 that did that successfully, right? And it adds a lot of depth to designing a character? Depth D3 won't have?

D3 has depth, whether you realize it or not. Also, allow me to doubt such mods would give such depth into character design. Would you mind expanding on the matter? Nonetheless, it seems you just didn't read what I said. There's still stat customization so it's not even gone. How dramatic is it that you can't put 5 points into your stat every level when you can still customize those same stat with your gear ?

How else do you explain the latest iteration of Madden or NHL Hockey or FIFA Soccer selling a skillion copies even though it's almost always fundamentally the same as the previous version?

For the same reason people play WoW even if it's fundamentally the same game every expansion?

The custom maps scene in SC2 is garbage compared to previous Blizzard games. There people who are still making maps for War3 not because the War3 tools are better, but because of the absurd restrictions Blizzard is trying to place on mapmakers in SC2.

Nope, that is your opinion. But the FACT is it is still very popular. Plus, the SC2 map editor is pretty much a copy paste of WC3's with some innovations.

[PizzaSHARK]

Your problem if you enjoy playing broken specs/builds. But you shouldn't positively judge a game's quality by its ability to generate broken mechanics.

Broken mechanics? That implies that it wasn't intentional.

It was intentional you could equip pretty much anything. You didn't need a bow to be flagged unusable to understand that you really shouldn't be using bows on that Barbarian. But you could if you wanted to.

Why are you having such a difficult time understanding that they simply removed one aspect of the game for no real reason?

D3 has depth, whether you realize it or not. Also, allow me to doubt such mods would give such depth into character design. Would you mind expanding on the matter? Nonetheless, it seems you just didn't read what I said. There's still stat customization so it's not even gone. How dramatic is it that you can't put 5 points into your stat every level when you can still customize those same stat with your gear ?

D3 will have less depth than (modded) D2 does, unless I've missed something major, because stats are now auto-assigned instead of customized. A particular mod I've played recently rebalances stats by making STR, DEX, and NRG critically important to your ability to do damage with weapons or spells, in addition to existing effects. You can still get only your minimum stat requirements for weapons and dump the rest into VIT, but your damage will be so pitiful you'll be unable to kill anything in Hell or even late Nightmare; but at the same time, funneling everything into your DPS stat will result in a glass cannon, making survival difficult unless you're extremely careful.

You're free to customize your character how you want - DPS in exchange for survivability, HP in exchange for DPS, or something in between. You can beat Hell difficulty and beyond with pretty much any combination, though some might perform better than others.

If Blizzard felt the stat assignment system was unbalanced, the solution was to fix it, not fucking remove it. It's like taking the radiator out of your car because the fan was broken.

"Stat customization," as you describe doesn't really apply; the previous games had that in addition to being able to customize your stat allocations with each level. Do you understand?

For the same reason people play WoW even if it's fundamentally the same game every expansion?

Heh, touche.

Nope, that is your opinion. But the FACT is it is still very popular. Plus, the SC2 map editor is pretty much a copy paste of WC3's with some innovations.

There have been numerous posts on TL and other places by pretty respected mapmakers who have said they will not be making content for SC2 until Blizzard's terms of use for it change; I've personally seen at least two extremely promising maps get abandoned after Blizzard started bitching at them for stupid shit.

The custom maps scene for SC2 is unquestionably weaker and smaller than the War3 custom maps scene (especially if we're talking about when War3 was in its prime), despite having vastly superior authoring tools.

Because Blizzard's TOS for mapmakers are unreasonable and pretty ridiculous in some regards, largely because now all custom maps have to be hosted and distributed by Blizzard (which, as I understand it, makes them legally liable for certain things that they didn't have to worry about previously, hence the many, many restrictions on content types.)

[alanm26]

I just want to throw this out there that for whatever reason, aspects of the the modding scene turn me off from games. For example I bought Torchlight on a steam sale but when I started looking in to its systems and gameplay, and saw how the community would always point new people to a "list of mods that makes this game more enjoyable", including pretty core things like the ability to respec, I quickly lost interest in playing far. I guess it has to do with wanting to play the game the developers made and getting the same experience as everyone else. And once the devs start getting into the mindset of "well the community will fix our game's flaws for us," I'd rather just have a polished game from the start. I'm one of the tiny minority of people that don't like Skyrim for the same reasons, which every time I've tried it, just seems broken. I'm glad that Diablo 3 will have a unified and hopefully polished experience.

That's just my opinion, take it how you will. Also I have no issue with total conversions such as Dota or Counterstrike, or WoW's addon scene since it's just user interface tweaks, and not able to change gameplay mechanics, so I know that's hard thing for me to articulate where the line is for me, just something to add since you bring up mods a lot in regard to D3.

[Furye]

Broken mechanics? That implies that it wasn't intentional.

It was intentional you could equip pretty much anything. You didn't need a bow to be flagged unusable to understand that you really shouldn't be using bows on that Barbarian. But you could if you wanted to.

Why are you having such a difficult time understanding that they simply removed one aspect of the game for no real reason?

Now, now, don't take such a condescending tone. I'm not having any difficult time understanding anything here. But you can't say they removed it for no reason. There IS a reason. So stop assuming the opposite.

Also, omitting something doesn't validate it as being intentional. AFAIK, Blizzard didn't design the game for you to equip a bow on a barb, and it's just common sense. I seriously don't think it was intentional. Why would it be ? How is it intentional that a barb can wear a bow? They just made it that every character can wear anything as long as stats requirements are met. The lazy way, imo.

D3 will have less depth than (modded) D2 does, unless I've missed something major, because stats are now auto-assigned instead of customized. A particular mod I've played recently rebalances stats by making STR, DEX, and NRG critically important to your ability to do damage with weapons or spells, in addition to existing effects. You can still get only your minimum stat requirements for weapons and dump the rest into VIT, but your damage will be so pitiful you'll be unable to kill anything in Hell or even late Nightmare; but at the same time, funneling everything into your DPS stat will result in a glass cannon, making survival difficult unless you're extremely careful.

You're free to customize your character how you want - DPS in exchange for survivability, HP in exchange for DPS, or something in between. You can beat Hell difficulty and beyond with pretty much any combination, though some might perform better than others.

If Blizzard felt the stat assignment system was unbalanced, the solution was to fix it, not fucking remove it. It's like taking the radiator out of your car because the fan was broken.

"Stat customization," as you describe doesn't really apply; the previous games had that in addition to being able to customize your stat allocations with each level. Do you understand?

If the solution was to remove it for them, so be it. I still don't see how even adding a balanced stats point/lvl system would makes the game better. It's just an illusion of progression compared to real character progression based on items. Stat customization still applies. You are still free to customize your character how you want. Dps, survivability, mix of both. The fact it's entirely based on gear now doesn't mean it's a bad thing or less complex.

There have been numerous posts on TL and other places by pretty respected mapmakers who have said they will not be making content for SC2 until Blizzard's terms of use for it change; I've personally seen at least two extremely promising maps get abandoned after Blizzard started bitching at them for stupid shit.

The custom maps scene for SC2 is unquestionably weaker and smaller than the War3 custom maps scene (especially if we're talking about when War3 was in its prime), despite having vastly superior authoring tools.

Because Blizzard's TOS for mapmakers are unreasonable and pretty ridiculous in some regards, largely because now all custom maps have to be hosted and distributed by Blizzard (which, as I understand it, makes them legally liable for certain things that they didn't have to worry about previously, hence the many, many restrictions on content types.)

They did still own your map, they just didn't have a way to enforce it. Now they do. But it's their problem if those mapmakers can't adapt to TOS. If their boycott is the reason you consider SC2's custom maps scene garbage, why not blame them?

[Rocketsurgeon]

So your complaint is that you can no longer make a broken toon for fun? You could just do it naked and be equivilent and the fix means that new players aren't completely fucked by putting points in stats that say they are good but turn out in the meta game to be useless.

Your problem if you enjoy playing broken specs/builds. But you shouldn't positively judge a game's quality by its ability to generate broken mechanics.

Where are you getting 'broken' from? Unusual isn't bad.
"A lot about how you build characters in Diablo is about not having to be optimal...Diablo is all about a game of viable builds, not optimal ones" ~ Jay Wilson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuKvxab1kBk
If a player enjoys himself and is successful in his approach, there's really not much to criticize.

Melee wizard is a love of mine. I was big on bow druids and other less default builds in D2. I did have some weird barbs at various times. You do what works and is fun. Taking issue with a perceived arbitrary cutoff to available toys when its a new change from a long standing tradition and design perspective is a valid stance to take. Maybe there was a good reason and, knowing it, it would be hard to argue against Blizzard's decision. As an early impression, I can see the frustration.

Ultimately, I agree with their choice to remove stats as they were in D2. I wish there was more customization over all, but I'm not sold on taking a step backwards to get there.

[rhorle]

Melee wizard is a love of mine. I was big on bow druids and other less default builds in D2. I did have some weird barbs at various times. You do what works and is fun. Taking issue with a perceived arbitrary cutoff to available toys when its a new change from a long standing tradition and design perspective is a valid stance to take. Maybe there was a good reason and, knowing it, it would be hard to argue against Blizzard's decision. As an early impression, I can see the frustration.

But its not some long stand tradition, its just what the mechanics were in that game. Each game changes around the mechanics. In diablo all spells/skills were shared between the 3 classes. Diablo 2 changed that. In diablo 2 there weren't many class-based restrictions on weapons. Diablo 3 changed that. You don't keep something around just because it has always been that way. Thats why games in the 90's always were "annoying" in certain regards and you didn't see much innovation and new concepts. Because developers always did the "traditional" route because RPGS always had to have those elements.

Just because a mod can do something a certain way doesn't mean it is still the best or most optimal way. Assigning stats will always have the same pitfalls and traps no matter how you balance what effects stats do. Because you will always have break points that Experienced players reach then devalue that stat. While having the inexperienced or new players making mistakes. Moving stat's away from being assigned also allows for greater depth in gear. As you don't have to assign points just to equip gear nor do you have to put that stuff on gear to limit who can equip the gear.

Much of how the Barbarian is built just wouldn't work in D3 with a bow. You would have to re-do skills and animations of those skills while the bow is equipped. Or limit what skills you use which doesn't work in the skill model D3 uses. While yes you could equip the stuff in D2 that doesn't mean it was a "supported" build. It was just a side effect of the way the mechanics worked in D2. Just like having a Tank in Diablo with full spells was a side effect of how the spellbook system worked.