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  1. #1

    [MoP][Ret][PvE] Disappointed by talent tier 3

    Now, I'd like to apologise in advance for sounding bitter and cynical, but it's just the way I feel about the 3rd talent tier. Because, you see, Blizzard again tries to turn a DPS spec into a offhealer, for the 3rd expansion in a row, with no other DPS spec or even hybrid that has the same problem.

    WotLK: we had Art of War, which, until they redesigned Exorcism halfway in, gave us FoL offhealing options, but before that, we mostly took it for the damage buff to judgement, DS and CS. but no other hybrid had talents specifically meant for offhealing.
    Cata: we currently have 2 talent points, Selfless Healer, which we can (thankfully) skip in PvE, but which most PvP paladins take, for the 10 second CD reduction, but not to use it on others. This talent is a DPS loss however you look at it, and to compound it, no other hybrid has talents that fulfill the same function (offhealing as DPS), except for enhancement shaman maelstrom, and they usually use it for damaging purposes.
    MoP: okay, first and second tier have options for PvE, but 3rd tier, wha? we got the choice between a stacking proc to improve flash of light, a finisher HoT that consumes holy power, or sacred shield. please explain to me why I am FORCED to choose a healing talent, as a DPS? will healing be so difficult to keep everyone up that they expect DPS to assist the healers? if that's the case, then something's gone VERY horribly wrong in design.

    and again, we're the only hybrid who they actually expect to offheal. druids are the closest, and even they gain nearly passive talents on those tiers that only affect themselves. shamans can choose cooldowns on those tiers that don't affect their DPS capacity. priests can choose a proc talent on their healing tier that they don't even need to think about and fires when they need it the most, and they don't lose DPS for it. even monks can choose mostly passive talents that they don't need to think about. again, paladins get the short end of the stick: we need to essentially manually activate our talents, and we lose DPS while doing so, either through resource consumption or through GCD usage.

    as it stands, paladins again are expected to do stuff we are not meant to do, stuff that we don't want to do, stuff that's not even needed if your healers are halfway competent, because we are a supposed hybrid class, while no other hybrid class is similar. either give all 3 talents a DPS part (judgement increases exorcism damage, holy power DoT effect, or point blank AoE), or just remake that tier altogether, but don't leave it like this. because this is just bad design. as it stands, i'm likely to just chooose one at random and never even put it on my bars.
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  2. #2
    Bloodsail Admiral Libram's Avatar
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    I would prefer not having the option for healing as well! But it may be for PvP purposes to :S
    Last edited by Libram; 2012-04-23 at 03:31 PM.
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  3. #3
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    It's not an off-healing tier, it's a survivability tier. DPS still have a responsibility to minimize their own damage (usually by not standing in bad stuff, interrupting, etc.), but this tier gives us an extra layer to that. Because we also have a healing spec, we have the ability to throw this to other players as well.

    We're expected to use the utility of our class, which happens to be healing. I know I'll be perfectly willing to toss out any of these three, whether I'm tanking or DPSing.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by nzall View Post
    Now, I'd like to apologise in advance for sounding bitter and cynical, but it's just the way I feel about the 3rd talent tier. Because, you see, Blizzard again tries to turn a DPS spec into a offhealer, for the 3rd expansion in a row, with no other DPS spec or even hybrid that has the same problem.

    WotLK: we had Art of War, which, until they redesigned Exorcism halfway in, gave us FoL offhealing options, but before that, we mostly took it for the damage buff to judgement, DS and CS. but no other hybrid had talents specifically meant for offhealing.
    Cata: we currently have 2 talent points, Selfless Healer, which we can (thankfully) skip in PvE, but which most PvP paladins take, for the 10 second CD reduction, but not to use it on others. This talent is a DPS loss however you look at it, and to compound it, no other hybrid has talents that fulfill the same function (offhealing as DPS), except for enhancement shaman maelstrom, and they usually use it for damaging purposes.
    MoP: okay, first and second tier have options for PvE, but 3rd tier, wha? we got the choice between a stacking proc to improve flash of light, a finisher HoT that consumes holy power, or sacred shield. please explain to me why I am FORCED to choose a healing talent, as a DPS? will healing be so difficult to keep everyone up that they expect DPS to assist the healers? if that's the case, then something's gone VERY horribly wrong in design.

    and again, we're the only hybrid who they actually expect to offheal. druids are the closest, and even they gain nearly passive talents on those tiers that only affect themselves. shamans can choose cooldowns on those tiers that don't affect their DPS capacity. priests can choose a proc talent on their healing tier that they don't even need to think about and fires when they need it the most, and they don't lose DPS for it. even monks can choose mostly passive talents that they don't need to think about. again, paladins get the short end of the stick: we need to essentially manually activate our talents, and we lose DPS while doing so, either through resource consumption or through GCD usage.

    as it stands, paladins again are expected to do stuff we are not meant to do, stuff that we don't want to do, stuff that's not even needed if your healers are halfway competent, because we are a supposed hybrid class, while no other hybrid class is similar. either give all 3 talents a DPS part (judgement increases exorcism damage, holy power DoT effect, or point blank AoE), or just remake that tier altogether, but don't leave it like this. because this is just bad design. as it stands, i'm likely to just chooose one at random and never even put it on my bars.
    I heard Skyrim was an awesome single player game. Maybe you're more suited for that style seeing as *playing in a group* seems so alien to you. Just a thought. And yes, if you can't see how the talent in t3 suit group play well then, reread my first sentence. *sigh*
    "Moral reason must learn how to make coercion its ally without running the risk of a Pyrrhic victory in which the ally exploits and negates the triumph."

  5. #5
    you might be willing, but that doesn't mean everyone is willing. If I need to use one of these, things are going down the shitter anyway, and nothing that I can do will be able to stop that. so I might as well continue DPS'ing. i rarely use my utility, and i don't want anyone to expect me to do so. i'm even going to completely overhaul my bars in 5.0, removing anything that isn't DPS or personal survival related. If I wanted to use my utility, i would have rolled a healer.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-23 at 05:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    I heard Skyrim was an awesome single player game. Maybe you're more suited for that style seeing as *playing in a group* seems so alien to you. Just a thought. And yes, if you can't see how the talent in t3 suit group play well then, reread my first sentence. *sigh*
    I stand by my decision. I joined as DPS, which means I shouldn't compensate for the badness of the healers, either by throwing out heals, or using my utility. If they can't handle it without my help, they shouldn't be doing the content in the first place.
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  6. #6
    Paladins complained when they stripped our utility so Blizz gave us some back in the form of Selfless Healer.

  7. #7
    Bloodsail Admiral Libram's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzall View Post
    you might be willing, but that doesn't mean everyone is willing. If I need to use one of these, things are going down the shitter anyway, and nothing that I can do will be able to stop that. so I might as well continue DPS'ing. i rarely use my utility, and i don't want anyone to expect me to do so. i'm even going to completely overhaul my bars in 5.0, removing anything that isn't DPS or personal survival related. If I wanted to use my utility, i would have rolled a healer.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-23 at 05:41 PM ----------



    I stand by my decision. I joined as DPS, which means I shouldn't compensate for the badness of the healers, either by throwing out heals, or using my utility. If they can't handle it without my help, they shouldn't be doing the content in the first place.
    Maybe you should have rolled as mage, or warrior atleast?
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  8. #8
    I wish we had selfless healer and Sacred Shield as a ret pvp paladin the choice provides heart ache because I love them both.

    Loved and made full use of these in Wrath.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by nzall View Post
    you might be willing, but that doesn't mean everyone is willing. If I need to use one of these, things are going down the shitter anyway, and nothing that I can do will be able to stop that. so I might as well continue DPS'ing. i rarely use my utility, and i don't want anyone to expect me to do so. i'm even going to completely overhaul my bars in 5.0, removing anything that isn't DPS or personal survival related. If I wanted to use my utility, i would have rolled a healer.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-23 at 05:41 PM ----------



    I stand by my decision. I joined as DPS, which means I shouldn't compensate for the badness of the healers, either by throwing out heals, or using my utility. If they can't handle it without my help, they shouldn't be doing the content in the first place.
    Then make a straight DPS class. You have a talent that GREATLY increases your survivability and allows you to possibly save yourself if a healer has to decide between you and the tank. If you don't want hybrid options, DONT make a hybrid class.

  10. #10
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzall View Post
    you might be willing, but that doesn't mean everyone is willing. If I need to use one of these, things are going down the shitter anyway, and nothing that I can do will be able to stop that. so I might as well continue DPS'ing. i rarely use my utility, and i don't want anyone to expect me to do so. i'm even going to completely overhaul my bars in 5.0, removing anything that isn't DPS or personal survival related. If I wanted to use my utility, i would have rolled a healer.

    I stand by my decision. I joined as DPS, which means I shouldn't compensate for the badness of the healers, either by throwing out heals, or using my utility. If they can't handle it without my help, they shouldn't be doing the content in the first place.
    These all qualify as "personal survivability", so I suppose you'll be using one of them. As for helping the healers, you don't do it because they're incompetent, you do it because it's helping the healers. Whether you like it or not, this is a team game, and we've been given the utilities to do so.

    But if you're willing to play at ~90% of your effectiveness, that's your choice I suppose.

  11. #11
    Blademaster messiaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libram View Post
    Maybe you should have rolled as mage, or warrior atleast?
    Yes, warriors, so instead of healing talents as dps, you get bad talents at all tiers.

  12. #12
    Mechagnome Bormes's Avatar
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    In PVE, your ret pally should never (or quite rarely) have to heal since it's so minimal compared to the output a healer can put out, and it will negatively impact his/her dps. I see your point there.

    BUT

    I think you're forgetting about PvP. If we didn't have heals in pvp, we'd be unbelievable gimped due to lack of utility/cc spells compared to other dps classes.

    I do understand ur strife tho. There really should be a talent in that third tier that is more geared towards the PVE ret pally, but I know I'll be picking up sacred shield as a PvP oriented ret pally.

    It kinda sounds to me like you don't like some of the aspects of ret paladins beyond that of minor annoyances, which makes me wonder why you would seek overarching class changes, as opposed to playing a class more suitable to your likes/dislikes.
    Last edited by Bormes; 2012-04-23 at 03:54 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by nzall View Post
    i rarely use my utility, and i don't want anyone to expect me to do so. i'm even going to completely overhaul my bars in 5.0, removing anything that isn't DPS or personal survival related[COLOR="red"]

    ...I shouldn't ... [be] using my utility. If they can't handle it without my help, they shouldn't be doing the content in the first place.
    Here's to hoping that nobody will have to play with you in the first place.

  14. #14
    not every talent will be suited for every situation, as a priest who specs shadow, i have a tier that is all about healing/shielding, does this mean i will be throwing out shields and shit on the raid? prolly not, will i be putting them on myself to keep from getting owned by that crazy boss ability, you betcha.

    your narrow-minded view that as a ret pally in a raid you will never need or want to heal something, be it yourself or others really doesnt fit your class. lets say, for example there is some crazy boss mechanic that separates you from the raid like the frostmorn mechanic, the ability to heal yourself there looks pretty good to the class that Cant heal themselves and dies.

    by being a hybrid class you have the ability to perform roles that pures cannot, if they put a dps spell on that same tier it wouldnt be balanced, so maybe what you want is to not have any healing talents at all? well what does that mean for the healers that dont need dps talents? im sorry you dont like it, but it is what it is, and any raid leader that makes his DPS heal is screwing themselves for overall raid dmg.

    so really, just deal with it, and use it to keep yourself alive if your healers go oom/get cc'ed/out of los/silenced/out of range/have debuffs preventing them from healing/go afk on a trash pack.... the list goes on.
    Last edited by Deadmedic; 2012-04-23 at 04:00 PM.
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  15. #15
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    I don't mind being thrown into the "hybrid" talent selections, that's why I'm a paladin. What I don't like is the only options as far as glyphs and talents so far on beta is ONLY hybrid or support oriented, there's no talents or glyphs that makes what a ret or prot paladin become better or more fun to play. Think we're in for another exp of being thrown to side because we're capable healers and tanks, either that or they'll try to balance us around bubble or selfheals again...
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarjon View Post
    Here's to hoping that nobody will have to play with you in the first place.

    And that's shy I suggested Skyrim. I mean solo play in Skyirm kicks ass over solo play in WoW, amirite?
    "Moral reason must learn how to make coercion its ally without running the risk of a Pyrrhic victory in which the ally exploits and negates the triumph."

  17. #17
    I think some of you are being a little too critical of the OP. If he doesn't feel like using most of his utility, that's his prerogative. If he isn't doing Heroic Mode raid content or PvP, it's not like it makes much of a difference anyway, since utility becomes of marginal use pretty much anywhere else. For Normal modes and LFR content, just doing good old fashioned dps will get the job done almost every time.
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  18. #18
    This healing came from the time they put the long cd on word of glory to stop paladins from just healing themselves constantly as a rotation. At first it was applied to Rets also, but the pvp Rets lost their ability to arena without it.

    There were so many threads about why they needed it about 6 months ago. Rets get to heal because they demanded it loudly.

  19. #19
    If I wanted to use my utility, i would have rolled a healer.
    I'm not sure you understand what is meant by "utility" in the context of an MMO class.

  20. #20
    Scarab Lord Frozen Death Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    It's not an off-healing tier, it's a survivability tier. DPS still have a responsibility to minimize their own damage (usually by not standing in bad stuff, interrupting, etc.), but this tier gives us an extra layer to that. Because we also have a healing spec, we have the ability to throw this to other players as well.

    We're expected to use the utility of our class, which happens to be healing. I know I'll be perfectly willing to toss out any of these three, whether I'm tanking or DPSing.
    I agree. I would have agreed with OP back in "WotLK" when our self healing was a lot better than many other classes, but Blizzard changed their stance on self healing and surviability since then. The healing talents are highly appropriate considering the route all the other classes are taking.

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