The Current State of TOR

[Enosh]

I'm not bashing the game.

<Posting memes is against the forum rules>

[vizzle]

<infraction material>

Do you have a proper response? If I've been playing TOR since December, what would I be doing now? PvE? Where many guilds cleared nightmare modes before too long? PvP Where there's no real sense of progression and the only reason to do it is to kill time? If I wanted to PvP without a sense of competition I'd rather play unranked LoL matches. Collect datacrons? Where anyone who's wanted to do that has had it done before the first few weeks?

MMORPGs need to offer accomplishments that players build upon themselves, so that it's the community that drives the reason to play forward, and not just how fast developers can reskin a new raid for people to collect epix from. An example of this? Ranked PvP (and ACTUAL ranked pvp, not just a counter for how many wins and losses you have), bounty boards and scoreboards per server for the players with the most completed bounties, some sort of politics system like what Tera has. I know I'm mentioning things from other games, but that's what other games need if they want to stand out from WoW. If you're just going to make another raiding game when the biggest raiding game in the world already has 10million people loyal to it, you shouldn't be expecting that much at all.

[Bugg]

vizzle I agree with you on most points.
but I think SWTOR is not the game we are looking for (yet).

[Forsedar]

Do you have a proper response? If I've been playing TOR since December, what would I be doing now? PvE? Where many guilds cleared nightmare modes before too long? PvP Where there's no real sense of progression and the only reason to do it is to kill time? If I wanted to PvP without a sense of competition I'd rather play unranked LoL matches. Collect datacrons? Where anyone who's wanted to do that has had it done before the first few weeks?

MMORPGs need to offer accomplishments that players build upon themselves, so that it's the community that drives the reason to play forward, and not just how fast developers can reskin a new raid for people to collect epix from. An example of this? Ranked PvP (and ACTUAL ranked pvp, not just a counter for how many wins and losses you have), bounty boards and scoreboards per server for the players with the most completed bounties, some sort of politics system like what Tera has. I know I'm mentioning things from other games, but that's what other games need if they want to stand out from WoW. If you're just going to make another raiding game when the biggest raiding game in the world already has 10million people loyal to it, you shouldn't be expecting that much at all.

Since servers are down and I am free to make an actual response:

Currently, only 12 guild in the world have cleared the new 16man content. If you're wanting something difficult- TOR is the place to be. The fights are not rehashed what so ever. I mean come on, one boss is HUMAN MINESWEEPER WITH A BOSS FIGHT AT THE END. WoW's newest game mechanic is standing on a flying dragons back that occasionally rolls. Awesome. One new fight that isn't the same as the past 13-14 or so raids. They had another boat fight... again.

PvE in TOR was pitiful at the beginning- but cut Bioware some slack because they were *learning*. The current content shows that they learned. It is extremely hard compared to the old content. Yes it may be only 4 bosses, but the amount of time to learn and clear these 4 bosses was about 3-4 times MORE hours than when it took us to do the other 10 bosses on Nightmare. They are about releasing quick content, so I expect to see a new operation in about 4 months which is great because we still need to farm and get gear while other guilds still need to kill the first boss on HM.

The competition in the community is strong, at least it is on my server. I know when we posted we just went 4/4 HM, other guilds trolled us because they were pissed we beat them. Granted they are only 1/4 HM, they still try to compete with us.

The 'biggest raiding game in the world' is only that way because there were no other MMOs with decent end game to give it competition. TOR has amazing end game now. It has just as much playability value as WoW does. You can farm, PvP, do instances and raid in TOR just like you can in WoW. The PvP is no different. In WoW you just hit your valor cap and wait until Tuesday for it to reset. Its the same thing every week. Farming bgs and arenas. It doesn't matter how good you are, just if you get valor capped every week and you'll eventually have a fullset of gear. How is that different than TOR? In TOR you grind up your rank in order to be eligible for gear, then you grind up the comms in order to purchase it. Its nearly an identical process, except it actually takes longer. The new warhero gear requires War Hero rank. Its 70 and I'm only 55 since I do not PvP. If I were to try to hit 70, it would take me literally 2 months if I PvP'd every day. Grinds suck, but it still is a great gating technique. If it could be easily attained then PvP would be dumb since everyone would be in the same gear.

Remember the grind to Grand Marshal and High Warlord? It took forever, but people saw that you got that rank and understood you earned it. Same in TOR.

This game does a great job for rewarding you and giving you a sense of accomplishment. You know how great it feels to run around with 'the Unyielding' before nearly anyone on your server could even CLEAR the place on Nightmare, let alone do it in under 2 hours? You know how great it feels to run around on a shiny new mount that other guilds probably won't get for a very long time? That is how I feel accomplished within the game. Run around in crazy gear and awesome mounts. I know I get messages telling me 'nice gear' or 'how did you get that!?'.

Please leave WoW out of this though. Its hard to debate your points when most of it is WoW vs TOR complaints which are not allowed here.

[vizzle]

Please leave WoW out of this though. Its hard to debate your points when most of it is WoW vs TOR complaints which are not allowed here.

I can't leave WoW out of it if we're going to assess the current state of TOR. People will choose what they want to play: WoW, TOR, Rift, and whatever else is out there, and considering WoW is the biggest competition of TOR, it's hard to talk about this without mentioning WoW.

Currently, only 12 guild in the world have cleared the new 16man content. If you're wanting something difficult- TOR is the place to be. The fights are not rehashed what so ever. I mean come on, one boss is HUMAN MINESWEEPER WITH A BOSS FIGHT AT THE END. WoW's newest game mechanic is standing on a flying dragons back that occasionally rolls. Awesome. One new fight that isn't the same as the past 13-14 or so raids. They had another boat fight... again.

Perhaps the raiding is better in TOR (now), I wouldn't know, I haven't tried it. But that's the problem right there -- if the game is exactly the same as WoW in everything endgame, why should the 10 million people who are undoubtedly in love with WoW ever try TOR out? The biggest thing keeping WoW players in their game right now is the community. It's their friends and their guildies that they've made over the years, and they're not going to leave all that just because the exact same format of the game (if not more archaic) is marginally better in TOR. TOR did not distinct itself enough from WoW. Simply -- if I wanted to play a game that's like WoW, why should I play anything other than WoW?

The PvP is no different. In WoW you just hit your valor cap and wait until Tuesday for it to reset. Its the same thing every week. Farming bgs and arenas. It doesn't matter how good you are, just if you get valor capped every week and you'll eventually have a fullset of gear. How is that different than TOR? In TOR you grind up your rank in order to be eligible for gear, then you grind up the comms in order to purchase it. Its nearly an identical process, except it actually takes longer. The new warhero gear requires War Hero rank. Its 70 and I'm only 55 since I do not PvP. If I were to try to hit 70, it would take me literally 2 months if I PvP'd every day. Grinds suck, but it still is a great gating technique. If it could be easily attained then PvP would be dumb since everyone would be in the same gear.

I disagree. Ranked PvP is very important in keeping a competitive PvP base. In WoW they have arenas and rated bgs, in TOR they have normal bgs. It gives people a real reason to log on and practice and get better, because they want their names to be higher on the ladder and to be the best. If there is no ladder and all we have is PvP without any method of scoring, then there is no incentive to play it except to kill time. And if I wanted to kill time, I'd honestly just play unranked LoL matches where I can choose from dozens of different champions with no pay at all. This is coming from someone who hit rank 70 before quitting, but valor titles were not enough of an incentive (for me) to keep grinding my ass off day after day in the same warzones. Why? Because in the end, it's not an indication of skill. It doesn't have any pride attached to it, not like a Gladiator title would have in WoW. I never was amazed when I saw a War Hero or another higher title in a warzone because it doesn't show anything about how well you play, but just how much you're willing to play. Which is never impressive. The only reason that structure of ranking was popular back in Vanilla was because, as you said, WoW had no real competition back then. WoW could've done whatever they wanted and it would've been great.

This game does a great job for rewarding you and giving you a sense of accomplishment. You know how great it feels to run around with 'the Unyielding' before nearly anyone on your server could even CLEAR the place on Nightmare, let alone do it in under 2 hours? You know how great it feels to run around on a shiny new mount that other guilds probably won't get for a very long time? That is how I feel accomplished within the game. Run around in crazy gear and awesome mounts. I know I get messages telling me 'nice gear' or 'how did you get that!?'.

That may be great, but that's a one time thing. I remember getting whispers when I got realm first Sinestra before I quit WoW, and being the first on the server to get the t11 achievement mounts, and I know how good that feeling is. But that's not comparable to ranked PvP or a politics system, that doesn't keep people playing. That's a one time experience that is confined to the 8-16 people that did it, and after that it's over. Sure, you 8-16 people will feel great about it, but how is that healthy for the game? How is that smart structure to keep people playing arbitrarily? It's not. You need features in the game that the players will build upon and keep themselves playing, so that you as a developer don't have to keep feeding them content over and over and over again to keep them sated.

[grenraven]

You are talking rubbish, you have absolutely not done the new operations on Nightmare as they havent even been released on Nightmare yet, and also almost noone has cleared even hardmode yet on the new operation so go and sew your troll seed elsewhere as your not wanted here

even with the 1.2 free weekend, i did raiding and it was still way too easy clearing on nightmare

<Please do not call users out as trolls let the moderation team decide that. Report and move on>

[trduhon07]

Swtor definitely will be cranking out some content once they get their game systems in a more desirable position.

They're fixing so many things right now, and have still managed to add an Operation (plus adding bosses to KP), 2 flashpoints, and a warzone in just 5 months. Once we get functional rated warzones and an LFG tool, I wouldn't be surprised to see a content patch drop every 3 months.

[Forsedar]

I can't leave WoW out of it if we're going to assess the current state of TOR. People will choose what they want to play: WoW, TOR, Rift, and whatever else is out there, and considering WoW is the biggest competition of TOR, it's hard to talk about this without mentioning WoW.

I guess you have a point. If there are Moderators reading this. Please do not punish either of us for mentioning other games. I guess in this situation it is kind of necessary, as long as we keep the 'game flaming' out of it, which we are thus far.

Perhaps the raiding is better in TOR (now), I wouldn't know, I haven't tried it. But that's the problem right there -- if the game is exactly the same as WoW in everything endgame, why should the 10 million people who are undoubtedly in love with WoW ever try TOR out? The biggest thing keeping WoW players in their game right now is the community. It's their friends and their guildies that they've made over the years, and they're not going to leave all that just because the exact same format of the game (if not more archaic) is marginally better in TOR. TOR did not distinct itself enough from WoW. Simply -- if I wanted to play a game that's like WoW, why should I play anything other than WoW?

It may have the same enjoyment value or similar content- but its still different. Some people enjoy change. If they have their comfort zone in WoW, why not stay there? I'm not saying people NEED to come play TOR. People need to play what they enjoy. I find enjoyment in this game and I know a lot of people who agree with me. I also have played with people who left the game because it just wasn't for them. In my own situation, I am playing with people who have been playing with eachother for years. Literally 7,8 or even 10 years. These guys are all friends who met through a game. I am apart of their crowd now and am enjoying every moment of it. Whats wrong with starting a new game and meeting new people? I started this game with 2 RL friend, my brother and a few others I had met prior to the release. I do not play with any of them anymore. My 2 RL friends do not play any games anymore. Their real life took over... so I am alone in an entirely new game, but I met these people. I talk to them on vent daily. I have their numbers. We're on a first name basis. We joke around, we screw around, we have fun. But like I said, for those in their comfort zone- they don't have to leave it... but there is no reward without risk.

Developers NEED to make a game like the leading competitor. People don't like too much change. They're naturally afraid of it. That is why I mention the comfort zone. By creating a game that is similar is a lot of ways, you're giving something to the consumers that they can recognize at a glance. I know I get turned off by games that are too different than what I am used to. The incentive to playing TOR or a game similar to WoW is that it still gives somewhat of a change of pace for you. New is good, not always, but a little in this case. Different graphics. Different classes. Different raids. It can all be a positive outcome if people don't go into it with extremely high expectations that are impossible to meet.

I disagree. Ranked PvP is very important in keeping a competitive PvP base. In WoW they have arenas and rated bgs, in TOR they have normal bgs. It gives people a real reason to log on and practice and get better, because they want their names to be higher on the ladder and to be the best. If there is no ladder and all we have is PvP without any method of scoring, then there is no incentive to play it except to kill time. And if I wanted to kill time, I'd honestly just play unranked LoL matches where I can choose from dozens of different champions with no pay at all. This is coming from someone who hit rank 70 before quitting, but valor titles were not enough of an incentive (for me) to keep grinding my ass off day after day in the same warzones. Why? Because in the end, it's not an indication of skill. It doesn't have any pride attached to it, not like a Gladiator title would have in WoW. I never was amazed when I saw a War Hero or another higher title in a warzone because it doesn't show anything about how well you play, but just how much you're willing to play. Which is never impressive. The only reason that structure of ranking was popular back in Vanilla was because, as you said, WoW had no real competition back then. WoW could've done whatever they wanted and it would've been great.

In WoW, it became flavor of the 'month' (season) classes and compositions. Don't you remember when basically the only 3 comps you ran into were RLS, PMR and TSG? People ran those like crazy because they saw that all the top teams were those comps. It was so predictable. It wasn't fun going into a match hoping you win the rock-paper-scissor queuing system. We knew which comps could roll us and which comps couldn't. Once you get up into that skill region, everyone was on the same level or close to it. How is that fun? Knowing you're going to lose because they are playing the composition that counters yours? Thats not fun in my eyes. Clicking 'queue' and praying you didn't get your counter. Granted there isn't much competition without Rated WZs in TOR- rated warzones are still coming out. They only delayed it due to sorting out issues which is the mature thing to do. Once it comes, that will spark more competition.

That may be great, but that's a one time thing. I remember getting whispers when I got realm first Sinestra before I quit WoW, and being the first on the server to get the t11 achievement mounts, and I know how good that feeling is. But that's not comparable to ranked PvP or a politics system, that doesn't keep people playing. That's a one time experience that is confined to the 8-16 people that did it, and after that it's over. Sure, you 8-16 people will feel great about it, but how is that healthy for the game? How is that smart structure to keep people playing arbitrarily? It's not. You need features in the game that the players will build upon and keep themselves playing, so that you as a developer don't have to keep feeding them content over and over and over again to keep them sated.

Thats exactly what the developer is supposed to do. Thats why we pay a monthly fee. We pay monthly for new content to come out. If we're not fed content, we're wasting our money. Bioware is doing right. They are feeding us content every couple months to give us what we pay for and to give us a reason to stay. New content means fresh competition. A blank slate. All guilds on equal footing. People who want to progress in raiding need something to strive for. Getting titles and mounts for bragging rights as well as gear to pull off high numbers or healthpools is an incentive to keep doing better. I raid for fun, but I also raid to have those bragging rights I stated. When our 16man group goes and attains the new gear, mounts, titles- people see that. They say 'oh wow I want that too'. When we put in general that we were 4/4 now, we instantly saw people trying to form up Story Mode groups. That wasn't coincidence. People saw that some guild went out and cleared everything so they felt compelled to do it too. We finished at about 12:45... one of the guilds below us went in to raid at 1:15am on an offnight just because they wanted to catch up to us. You'd be surprised what a group of people can do to an entire server based on their own accomplishments.

There are features in the game to keep people playing. There is an entire legacy system that will constantly be expanded upon to give those an incentive to roll alts. The story will added onto in later content patches for every class. Just because TOR doesn't have Farmville and Pokemon doesn't mean we don't have anything to do. We find things to do. We raid, we PvP, we talk to each other in general. Hell, I see people playing hide-and-seek on Fleet sometimes! If you sit around saying, "I'm bored. Theres nothing to do. This sucks." then it will suck and you will stay bored. Having a bad attitude about something can really offset the actual value of a game. If you go into TOR like, "Hey I have a lightsaber. I look badass. I'm going to go kill shit and have fun." Then you will have fun. Its really that simple.

[Deleted]

Now would probably be a great time to restart, it's over the initial period where people that thought it would be a 100% perfectly polished game with no issues have actually left and gone on to hyping up w/e the next coming mmo is. I believe the patches are coming through fast and from my experience this is now the time where mmos start to slowly grow back up population wise.

I dont personally play it, it wouldn't run on my comp and i still enjoy WoW, but i have a lot of respect for this rare breed of people online that actually play the games they enjoy rather than focusing on "LOL THIS GAME HAS MORE SUBS THAN THAT ONE,THAT ONE SUCKS YES". People forget that it took Blizzard like 6 years to reach their sub numbers and that nowadays it's even more difficult considering the sheer amount of mmo's out there

[soulcrusher]

well said pilkie. im enjying swtor a lot and cant see what all the negativitys about excepting the fact that people seem to feel that being negative about something is cool.

[Forsedar]

Now would probably be a great time to restart, it's over the initial period where people that thought it would be a 100% perfectly polished game with no issues have actually left and gone on to hyping up w/e the next coming mmo is. I believe the patches are coming through fast and from my experience this is now the time where mmos start to slowly grow back up population wise.

I dont personally play it, it wouldn't run on my comp and i still enjoy WoW, but i have a lot of respect for this rare breed of people online that actually play the games they enjoy rather than focusing on "LOL THIS GAME HAS MORE SUBS THAN THAT ONE,THAT ONE SUCKS YES". People forget that it took Blizzard like 6 years to reach their sub numbers and that nowadays it's even more difficult considering the sheer amount of mmo's out there

Very respectable post.

To base a game off of its first few weeks of launch isn't necessary. It takes a few months for developers to get into the grove of things, especially when its their first time making anything relatively close to an MMO. In all honesty, I say 1.3 should be the starting point for judging TOR. 1.2 is definitely great but there needs to be a few more things added in order for it to be in great shape.

Also, a developer post from Bioware specifically stated that subs have not dropped- just the number of people on during primetime has lowered but login times are more spread out. My server is Low Population and we had 88 people on fleet before I entered into Denova. I was impressed... then I saw there were 58 people in Denova. I think Tatooine had around 40-50 people as well. Its a Low Pop server and we had TONS of people on doing things. This game is a baby and needs to be treated as such. Constantly yelling at it isn't going to help it develop. It needs patience. You can only be disappointed if you don't see any improvement whatsoever.

That isn't the case though. This game has improved many times over in a small amount of time. I am looking forward to the future of this game as well as the gaming industry. More top dogs means better content and better competition. Its a win/win for both TOR players and WoW players.

[Dezerte]

I'll have to agree with vizzle.

The only reason I gave SWTOR a try was because of it's focus on storytelling. But I feel they failed to live up to my expectations in this, so I quit. But I wouldn't say that I've left it for good just yet, I still keep an eye on it (that's why I'm still here).

So when you remove the storytelling, it's essentially the same game as WoW with a few improvements and changes. For some people this is enough, but for me it isn't. Sure, it's also lacking things that WoW has but hopefully in time SWTOR will have these as well.

[Forsedar]

I'll have to agree with vizzle.

The only reason I gave SWTOR a try was because of it's focus on storytelling. But I feel they failed to live up to my expectations in this, so I quit. But I wouldn't say that I've left it for good just yet, I still keep an eye on it (that's why I'm still here).

So when you remove the storytelling, it's essentially the same game as WoW with a few improvements and changes. For some people this is enough, but for me it isn't. Sure, it's also lacking things that WoW has but hopefully in time SWTOR will have these as well.

I just enjoy knowing that my monthly fee is going towards new content. So instead of paying $15 a month and waiting 10 months for something new... I wait 3-4 months and get something new. So those 3-4 months means I'm paying $45-60 for new content where as in WoW I would be paying $150. I feel like I'm paying to play content I already bought in WoW, where as in TOR I feel like I'm putting money down every month for new content that will come soon. Its just how I personally feel.

[Azuri]

It appears the OP's post has been answered to his satisfaction here:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post16547479


Anything beyond that has led to nonconstructive posts for the most part so it's best to close this thread since it has run it's course.