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  1. #1

    My Rogue ideas for MoP

    *WARNING: INSANELY HUGE POST!*

    Ok, I'm quite of a newcomer to MMO-Champion, but nonetheless, I'd like to share with you some ideas and thoughts i had of the Rogue class, stuff I'd like to see happen asap. I'd preferably go straight down to it, so here it is:


    BASELINE ADDITIONS / CHANGES:

    DAMAGE:
    Less passive damage (but not obsolete ofc), more active damage. In particular, Rupture (well, finishers damage in general) seriously needs a big buff so it's viable for ALL three specs. All abilities should also hit more than white damage *cough previous version of sinister strike cough*.
    Slice and Dice should also be toned down for sure, to the realm of 25%-ish melee attack speed bonus, rather than the current 40%.

    POISONS:
    To make sure poisons are not favoring either fast or slow weapons, here is an idea:
    * Make them a PPM mechanic, but ONLY in regards to AUTOATTACKS!
    * Keep them trigger in a regular %-based way in regards to ABILITIES
    This system favours neither fast nor slow weapon speeds!

    COMBO POINTS:
    The biggest change that Rogues need is for Combo Points to stack on oneself. This is clearly seen to have become an issue with the new FoK and Crimson Tempest (FoK needs a target to get a cp, CT doesn't consume CPs if it doesn't hit a target). But balancing it up is ofc necessary for this to happen. I guess that could be done quite easily. Here is an idea:
    * When you are in combat, there is no worry about losing CPs or anything like that, that'd be silly.
    * However, as soon as you leave combat, you lose your CPs after a little while. I'd suggest, after 15 seconds from being out of combat, you lose a combo point every 5 or so seconds. This leaves you some room to use Recuperate or SnD and stuff like that, but you need to hurry a bit if you wanna keep the benefits.

    This makes one specific ability and talent useless: Redirect, and its talent Versatility. So those 2 are simply removed.

    In addition, the talent Anticipation should also be baseline (from low level, even level 1, so you get used to its function from the very start!). It is way too good as a talent, because it is pretty much a nobrainer, and with the addition of Shadow Blades, essential. However, it shouldn't function as it is currently implemented (15 sec buff), but rather, you should just simply be able to stack 10 combo points on yourself (functions much easier when the combo points is on yourself as well). Finishers still only consume a max of 5 combo points ofc.

    Note to you Feral Druids: I also think you should get Combo Points on yourself, and (only if specced into Feral) get something similar to Anticipation too. Although, i'd say: Keep the Feral anticipation equivalent to a max of 2 or 3 extra combo points. The idea was first implemented for Rogues after all (and Druids don't need it as much either).

    That would just leave Shuriken Toss from the level 90 talents... But should it really be a talent?


    BASELINE ABILITIES:
    Let's start with which TALENTS got added baseline to all Rogues:
    * Anticipation - As mentioned above: Anticipation got baselined (in a different, better way). Versatility got baselined too, in a way (due to the combo point changes).
    * Shuriken Toss - Why not give Shuriken Toss as a base skill too? (And due to the changes in combo point mechanics, the regular throw ability can just be scrapped anyway) I'd say it should be a base skill, but with some balancing added i guess. For example: Still generates a combo point, increase the damage to medium damage (like, 75% of a Sinister Strike perhaps?), but costs 35-ish energy and has a short cooldown, like 3 seconds or so. Then it would be useful, for sure, but not overpowered. I guess you can remove the cooldown too, but it would need to be kept in check so it doesn't get overpowered.
    * Dirty Tricks - Baselined, at least the "don't break from (your) bleeds/poisons" part. It is a talent that is pretty much forced upon the Rogue if they wanna be able to use their Gouge and Blind, in particular Subt (and to an extent Assa). The costs of the ability needs no changing, but i guess Gouge could be a tad cheaper in its cost. Then the Blind glyph would only clear all dots that are NOT your own bleeds and poisons.
    * Deadly Throw - Baselined, but changed a little too. Now only deals its damage and slows the target, it will NOT be able to interrupt anymore. Slows by 50% for 3 seconds + 1 second more per combo point used.
    * Leeching Poison - Baselined too, but i guess a bit weaker would be more balanced. 7 or 8% of damage, rather than 10%. Maybe even lower if necessary, like 5%.

    Now let's see what entirely NEW abilities i'd like to add to Rogues:
    * Honor Among Thieves (Passive) - Just gives you (and your party/raid members) the 5% crit aura. It fits so much for the Rogue to bring this imo. This passive does nothing for CPs, if you are wondering, it's ONLY the crit aura!
    * Lethality (Passive) - Brought back this old talent as a passive for all Rogues. Also changed a bit, into this: "Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your abilities by 15(ish?)%." Meaning, it now affects ALL your active abilities, even though the bonus is a tad weaker (was 30%, but also only benefitted the main combo point builders before).
    * Abduct - "Stuns the target for 4 seconds and leap together with the target backwards 20 yards. Must be stealthed and behind the target. Awards 2 combo points" Costs 50 energy. So it's pretty much Cheap Shot, but with cons and pros. Pros are the whole abduction part ofc (that you jump backwards with the target) and that it is equally strong in stun length. Cons is that it costs 10 more energy than Cheap Shot and that it requries you to be behind the target.
    * Assassinate - "You attack the enemy target's weakest point, instantly killing them. Grants 3 combo points. Only usable on non-player targets who have equal or less health than you" Should cost a LOT of energy, like 80-ish or so and have a 1.5 minute cooldown. Inspired by the Monk's "Touch of Death" (which has the same length on the cooldown btw), but opposite in the way it is used (Monk uses Chi, which is somewhat the equivalent to Combo Points, while the Rogue one GRANTS Combo points instead, but at a hefty energy cost instead.) This ability certainly fits the Rogue and gives more than one class this unique ability, making it less REQUIRED for just Monks to be added in the certain occasions where an instakill would be very beneficial.
    NOTE: Something similar could be done to the Warrior's Execute ability (Heroic Strike could then have a damagebuff on weaker targets, similarly to how the CURRENT Execute works... or something like that)
    * Energy Pill - This ability is meant to replace Thistle Tea! It functions simply like this:
    "Instantly grants you 50 energy and increases your maximum energy by 50 for 10 seconds. Does not break stealth." 3 minute cooldown or so, learnt around level 30 or so. The reason it raises the energy cap is to help making sure you do not waste this bonus energy when you use it (and also gives you some minor potential for bursty energy storage)
    Thistle Tea would still remain as a novelty item, but that is all it would be.
    * Swiftleaping - A new ability to help Rogues get some better baseline mobility:
    "Leap towards target destination. Can be used an additional time within 6 seconds of the first leap. Does not break stealth". 20 yards range, 20 or so second cooldown. Would feel very mobile and agile, just like Rogues are supposed to be. It would funtion pretty much like Heroic Leap, just that you can use it twice (or maybe remove the doublejump?) and in stealth. Imo, it should be learnt VERY early, like level 10 or so!
    * Speed of Darkness - A new ability to help Rogues not lose too much autoattack damage by stealthing with Vanish or Shadow Dance:
    "Whenever you enter stealth by using Vanish or Shadow Dance, you gather strength from the surrounding shadows and gain Speed of Darkness. The duration of Speed of Darkness builds up for as long as you remain in stealth, but max duration of this ability is 5 seconds. When you then leave stealth your Speed of Darkness is unleashed and you get 100% increased melee attack speed for its built up duration."
    When you go into stealth with Vanish or Shadow Dance in PvE, you lose out on quite a bit of autoattackdamage. This boost is meant to help remove that disadvantage. Maybe this should be a Subtlety passive only?

    ABILITY CHANGES:
    * Slice and Dice - As mentioned above, reduced melee speed bonus on this ability, to reduce the reliance on passive damage. Most damaging abilities are instead increased in damage.
    * Gouge - As mentioned above, no longer breaks from bleeds or poisons. One of two other changes could also be made:
    a) Stay at 45-ish energy cost, but also grant a combo point (no longer an issue with target swapping, due to cp's stacking on oneself)
    b) Reduced to 30 energy cost (or less), but grants no combo point
    * Ambush - Energy cost reduced to 50 (to make all openers more equal in energycost) and should have baked into itself that it has a 30% (or something like that) increased chance to critically hit. I'd also add something extra to it, like, it slows the target down by 50% for 8 seconds. That would make it feel a bit different from all other basic combo moves.
    EDIT: Oh and due to how Shadow Dance was changed, i'd also suggest a big increase in damage of the ability (almost double?). Either that and/or let it ignore a nice chunk of the target's armor baseline?
    * Kidney Shot - Considering that finishers are (or, should be) a huge part of the damage for Rogues, i'd say: Give the Rogues some damage done on Kidney Shot too, for PvP damage issues (since you need the resource Combo Points for it, which are harder to come by in MoP, which is quite a damageloss). Just a thought.
    * Vanish - Baseline 2 minute cooldown or so (Preparation gone!)
    * CloS - Baseline 1 (or 1.5) minute cooldown (Preparation gone!). Maybe also reduce its duration to 4 seconds only, to make the cooldown feel more defensive rather than offensive.
    * Evasion - Baseline 1 (or 1.5) minute cooldown, but duration reduced to 8 - 10 seconds (Preparation gone!)
    * Blind - No energy cost, doesn't break from bleeds or poisons and baseline 2 minute cooldown (Preparation gone!)
    * Smoke Bomb - An idea i saw somewhere on the forums was to reduce the duration of Smoke bomb to only 3-4 seconds, cooldown to 1-2 minutes, but also remove the ability from the global cooldown. What that mean is that it is more powerful for the Rogue, while less powerful for your other teammates. This kind of smoke would be used in a slightly different way, and with a shorter cooldown it would serve as a small defense while rooted more often. The Glyph (which adds 2 seconds duration) would need some rebalancing too ofc.
    * Tricks of the Trade (just a thought) - Instead of having a damage-increase bonus on the target which gets the threat, how about more synergy with the actual target, which is usually a tank? For example, instead of 15% extra damage dealt, how about 5% reduced damage taken? (And this should go for the Hunter's Misdirection as well, and also have a similar duration). That also reduces griefing capabilities a bit.
    * Crippling Poison - Since Paralytic Poison is changed into a more passive talent (read in the talent section for more info), the Shiv effect on Crippling Poison now has the Immobilization effect instead (the 70% slow is sort of still there, read on the Deadly Brew talent for more info).
    * Garrote - Remove the positioning requirement, and make it also grant 2 combo points (all openers should grant 2 cp's imo). That way, Cheap Shot and Garrote are the more mobile openers, while Ambush and my new opener ability Abduct are the more requiring (aka, requiring to be behind the target), but also generally more powerful openers. That way, you have two abilities mainly for control (Cheap shot and Abduct), where one of them (Abduct) is situationally stronger, but also requires the "behind" thing, and, you then also have two abilities mainly for damage (Garrote and Ambush), where one of them is burstier (generally more useful) but has the behind requirement as well! All this means is: More choices and flexibility!
    EDIT: Oh, and it should also deal its damage every 2 seconds, rather than every 3 seconds. That makes it more useful in particular for Assassination, due to Venomous Wounds (since you can't benefit from Garrote and Rupture at the same time)
    * Expose Armor - No longer costs energy anymore, but doesn't grant a combo point either! Possibly add an additional effect (Glyph or baseline?) like slowing the target down, so it has more useages both in PvP and PvE. It could be a stackable slow (25% slow, stacks twice) due to the ability being so spammable now.
    * Relentless Strikes - Just a change from being chance-based, to combopoint based: "Your finishing moves restore 5 energy per combo points used for the finishing move". Still only grants max 25 energy, so the only real change is increased reliability.
    * Shiv - Some minor changes. Here's my tooltip: "Strikes an enemy target's pressure point with your offhand weapon, dealing (25% AP) physical damage, applying a concentrated form of your active Non-Lethal poison and dispelling an enrage effect on the target."
    So now it no longer scales in energy cost with different weapon speeds (should cost 20 energy at all times), but no longer awards a combo point either.
    * Kick - Some ideas in how to possibly improve it:
    a) Simply remove its energycost
    b) Still has an energy cost (10 energy, instead of 15), but grants you 10 energy if you interrupt successfully
    c) Keep an energy cost but also add some secondary effect to it, like also briefly silencing the target?
    If any of these ideas were implemented, the PvP glove set would need a change. How about something like simply reducing disarming effects on you by 50% or so? That makes more sense imo (I mean, GLOVES improving KICK?! What?)
    * Feint - I would bring back the threat-reduction part to this ability and to make sure it isn't a complete DPS-loss when you use this ability i would tack something extra on it too. My description of it would be: "Performs an evasive maneuver, reducing damage taken from area-of-effect attacks by 50% for 5 sec, as well as lowering your threat by 5%, making the enemy less likely to attack you. Also reduces the global cooldown by 50% of your next ability that triggers the global cooldown within 6 seconds". Not exactly a huge upgrade, but still not bad i guess? It also fits with its name better now >_>

    TALENTS:
    The general idea of the new talent tree is imo a GREAT one! But it is certainly lacking balance in some areas. Note that a lot them have moved around where they might be, (and some are outright removed) but their names remain the same if they are moved. Let's get straight to them:

    Level 15
    The stealth tier
    1) Nightstalker - Changed to: "During stealth and for 8 seconds after breaking stealth, your movement speed is increased by 25% and abilities that generate combo points now generate an additional combo point. Max 2 combo points can be granted this way, until you enter stealth again."
    Note: If you get those 2 combo points fast, it doesn't consume the movement speed. This talent really needed a buff to help you out similarly to Subterfuge and Shadow Focus.
    2) Subterfuge - I like this talent as it is, but could perhaps need some balancing though. An idea would be that you could max use ONE extra ability in this mini-after-stealth. So instead of being able to CheapShot-Ambush-Ambush, you'd max be able to CheapShot-Ambush, then you can't use abilities that require stealth any more (you will still be stealthed for the remainder of Subterfuge, but you will leave the "stealth bar"). That still makes it a useful talent, but not gamebreakingly good either.
    3) Shadow Focus. I like it the way it is!

    Level 30:
    The "Enemy damage suppression/CC" tier
    1) Nerve Strike - Same as currently. Good and simple
    2) Pacifying Poison Dart - "Shoots/throws a poisoned dart at the target, preventing the target from attacking (melee and ranged) and silencing it for 4 seconds". Moderate cooldown (35-ish seconds?), 40 yard range?
    A simple ranged active ability (free of energy cost?), that is added as a talent instead of Deadly Throw (Deadly Throw is baselined, but no longer interrupts either). Compared to Nerve Strike, this ability is more powerful (reduces the targets damage output by 100% for the moment hehe) and has a VERY long range, but it's not as readily available as Nerve Strikes is
    3) Flash Bomb - "Incapacitates all targets around you within 8 yards for 3-4 seconds. Any damage caused will remove the effect". This ability i have thought of in two versions:
    A) As a seperate active ability in itself with something like a 2 minute cooldown, or
    B) Something that happens when you Vanish!
    C) As an upgrade/replacement of Blind, with the description like this:
    Flash Bomb - "Blinds your target, causing it to wander around for up to 1 min as well as blinding all targets within 8 yards around the target for 3-4 (?) seconds. Any damage caused will remove the effect. Does not break stealth. Replaces Blind". With a 1.5 minute cooldown and a 20-yard range on this ability it would still be an upgrade to the normal Blind for single targets, as the regular Blind has a 2 minute cooldown and only a range of 10 yards.
    Dunno which alternative is the most balanced though...
    NOTE: Deadly Throw is baseline now (although, does not interrupt anymore) and Combat Readiness is moved (and changed+renamed) to a different tier (The level 75 tier).

    Level 45:
    The mobility tier
    1) Shadowstep - Keep its functions just the way it is, but maybe reduce its cooldown a bit? Like 15-20 seconds? 24 seems like too much imo.
    2) Burst of Speed - Some changes to this. The essence of the ability is still the same, but still quite heavily changed:
    * Costs 60 energy still
    * Grants the movement speed AND complete immunity (like freedom), rather than a mini-sprint OR immunity to ONE spell's movement impairing effect. However, the effects only last 3 seconds (maybe 4?)
    * Has a 10 second cooldown (12 if the duration is 4 seconds imo)
    * You get the 60 energy back used over the 10 seconds it recharges (so it's not a DPSloss ever to use it!)
    3) Juxtaposition - "Mark your target with a mysterious, haunting shadow. This shadow will remain on the target for up to 12 seconds. While the target is haunted by the shadow you may use this ability again, which will teleport you behind the target and slow the target down by 50% for 5 seconds. The target must be within 40 yards for you to be able to teleport to it but does not require you to be in its line of sight. Neither the act of marking a target with the shadow nor the teleportation breaks stealth"
    A new and very mysterious "ninjalike" ability. After teleporting to the target, the cooldown will start. The act of placing the shadow on a target has no cost other than a global cooldown and should have a 35-ish yard range. This ability could have a 20-ish second cooldown due to being so strong.
    NOTE: As you can see, Preparation is gone. Imo, it is a REALLY boring type of ability and i'd even promote to remove Preparation-like abilities from ALL classes. It makes the cooldowns they reset require weird balancing, and the potential power of Preparation-like abilities is too strong imo. Turns the tide way too heavily. On top of that, you might feel very weak when all your cooldowns, including the preparation-like ability, are on cooldown. This rings especially true for Rogues though.

    Level 60:
    The slowdown/CC tier
    1) Deadly Brew - Stays the same, but has an additional effect, a small improvement for Crippling Poison:
    "In addition, if you apply Crippling Poison as your active non-lethal poison, it will be slightly amplified. The slow-effect is increased by another 10% (slows 60% instead of 50%!) and the Shiv immobilization effect lasts 0.5 seconds longer".
    This mean that if you have any other non-lethal poison applied than Crippling Poison, it will still only slow by 50%. Only if you have actively chosen Crippling Poison as your current non-lethal poison will it be stronger.
    2) Paralytic Concoctions - "Every time you apply your non-lethal poisons on a target and for every second a target is affected by your Smoke Bomb ability, you apply Paralytic Concoction to the target, which stacks up to 5 times. Once a target has 5 stacks on it, the effect will be consumed and stun the target for 4 seconds."
    This makes the old Paralytic Poison a passive ability applied to all your poisons, as well as your Smoke Bomb for added versatility.
    3) Entangling Bolas - "Throws a bolas at your enemy target, which entangles it and possibly another nearby enemy target within 8(ish) yards of the initial target, slowing their movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds. If 2 targets are entangled, they will also quickly be dragged towards eachother".
    Could have something like, 15-ish sec cooldown, 30 yard range. Could possibly entangle 1 more target?
    NOTE: Dirty Tricks is (somewhat) baselined, hence why it is gone from this tier. Paralytic Poison is now a passive effect, and due to thus losing the Shiv immobilization, Crippling Poison now has the immobilization as its Shiv effect!

    Level 75:
    The personal survivability tier
    1) Cheat Death - Same as now (maybe also move you UP to 10% health upon the triggering?)
    2) Elusiveness - Same as now
    3) Shadow/Ghost/Blade/Whatever Shield - "Surround yourself with a mystical shield, suppressing incoming attacks with increasing effectiveness. Successive attacks (be it spell or physical) will deal 10% less damage per application, stacking 5 times. Lasts for 20 sec, but if 10 sec elapse without any incoming attacks, this shield will fade." 2 minute cooldown or so.
    Pretty much a more powerful and reworked Combat Readiness. It is now an ability used for survival against all types: Melee, ranged and spells. It could still use the same cool animation though!
    NOTE: Leeching Poison is now a baseline poison, and Combat Readiness has taken its place (although, as you can see, in a more powerful way, and also with a totally different name)

    Level 90:
    The DPS cooldown tier. Completely reworked due to the baselining (pretty much at least) of all level 90 talents. This tier is meant to be an offensive tier, which is helpful both on single target and on multiple targets! They all have mediumlong cooldowns (like 1-minute cooldowns) and the DPS-bonus should be the same for all of them (considering their mechanics, that should not be hard to balance either!) So here are the ideas:
    1) Deadly Horizon - "Attacks all enemies in front of you within a wide area with a powerful and mystical attack dealing X instant bleed damage and slows movement speed by 25% for 5 seconds. Damage is split evenly among all targets. Generates 1 combo point if at least one enemy is hit by this ability."
    A huge neatlooking slash in front of you, with a minor slow. Simple.
    2) Razor Chakram - "Throws a Chakram at your enemy target, which has X charges (let's say 10?). The Chakram will either bounce over to another nearby target or keep spinning at the current target. It will bounce only if it finds a different enemy target within 8 yards of itself. Each time it lands on a target or keeps spinning on a target, it consumes a charge, deals Z instant bleed damage and slows down the target by 50% for 3 sec. Can bounce between the same targets repeatedly, but prioritizes new targets. Generates 1 combo point."
    Pretty much just a throwable blade which bounces around on targets, or stays and keeps slashing on the same target if it can't jump further onto a new target. Quite neat imo!
    3) Blade Bomb - "Throws a dangerous device at your target, immobilizing the target for 3(ish) sec. Whenever this immobilization ends (meaning, even if it's dispelled somehow) lots of deadly steelwired blades is shot out and damages all targets within 12 yards for X instant bleed damage and slows all affected targets by 50% for 3 seconds. Damage is split evenly among all targets. Generates 1 combo point"
    Pretty much a little "timebomb" if you will. Simple, yet effective. Personally, I'm not 100% content with this ability yet (in particular its name), but something with somewhat similar mechanics is still something i think would be cool.
    NOTE: Anticipation is baselined (too potentially good to NOT be it), Versatility is scrapped (due to Combo Points stacking on yourself now) and Shuriken Toss is also baselined (although, needs some balancing to make sure it is not too overpowered)


    ---------- Post added 2012-04-25 at 11:26 PM ----------

    THE SPECIALIZATIONS:
    Right now, it looks like Subt and Combat are VERY similar in their feels. So, i have ideas for all 3 trees to try and make each feel more unique from one another.
    Let's see what ideas i got:

    ASSASSINATION:
    Active abilities
    * Mutilate/Dispatch - The combo moves Mutilate and Dispatch are good abilities for this spec. It definitely feels different from the other two, in particular with the passive Blindside as well. However, i'd still change a few small things:
    1) Mutilate - Now does its full damage at all times. Instead, when the target is poisoned, it has a 15% increased chance to critically hit.
    2) Dispatch - It should have a base 20% or so increased chance to critically hit.
    * Venom Strike - This ability is added to help spice things up a little for Assassination Rogues, in particular to add some flavour, and an active way to make the target be in a "poisoned" state, other than by using Shiv:
    "Strikes an enemy target deeply with a highly poisonous strike, dealing 100% weapon damage as well as applying the Venomous Instability effect to the target. Venomous Instability will deal random poison damage to the target every second for 10 seconds, but will always end up dealing a total of [120% AP] poison damage over the whole duration. Awards 1 Combo Point. Requires Daggers". 30 energy cost. 15-ish second cooldown. The ticks should be very random, but a single tick should not be able to do more than 33% of the total DoT.
    * Poison Cloud - A new ability for Assassination only, which will certainly fit its arsenal, and is mainly there to improved its AoE rotation. It should feel familiar:
    "Throws a bottle at the target area (similar to Distract), which leaks out a poison cloud (could be a poison POOL too though, similarly to the one the enemy Rogue boss of the Crusader instance in WotLK). Deals (X% of AP) Nature damage every second to all targets which stands within its 8 yard radius. Lasts 10 seconds." Give it ... say, a 45-ish Energy cost and a 15-ish second cooldown. Maybe share a cooldown with Venom Strike to make you unable to use both abilities during single and multitarget encounters? This especially due to the new passive i made, Vicious Intent (read futher down in the passive abilities section for more info)
    * Envenom - Just some thoughts/discussion regarding Envenom:
    Now when Rogues have an actual AoE rotation (FoK + CT), there is a slight problem: Envenom might still be the best finisher, even during AoE-rotations, for Assassination, due to the increased poison application buff! Some ideas to make sure that isn't the case (Since Envenom is supposed to be the single target finisher and CT the aoe finisher):
    Make the poison application buff:
    1) into a DEBUFF on the target instead
    2) triggered by different abilities, such as Venom Strike and Poison Cloud.
    3) grant Crimson Tempest the same poison application buff as Evenom (but only for Assassination ofc)
    With my idea for what abilities are affected by the Mastery (moving some of its power more over to active abilities as well) this might not be a problem at all, but i still have these suggestions to prevent wonky rotations in case it might still be true.
    * Cold Blood - Brought back, but with a twist and only with a 1 minute cooldown. It still makes your next direct damage ability a critical hit, and it still grants you instant 25 energy, but it's also tied to the passive ability Overkill... (Overkill can be read about in the passive abilities section)
    * Deadly Delay - This is in place of the boring Vendetta. It's both rather simple yet advanced. Here's the description:
    "Stabs your target with deadly force and precision, dealing 150% instant weapon damage as bleed damage plus another 25% weapon damage as bleed damage every sec for 12 seconds and applies the Deadly Delay effect on the target. Deadly Delay causes you to deal 20% more damage to the target, but all this bonus damage is dealt when Deadly Delay wears off. However, there is no delay of the bonus damage once the target is at or below 20% health. Lasts 12 seconds. Awards 1 combo point."
    Approximate values: No energy cost, 1.5 minute or so cooldown. Melee range. Requires Daggers.
    So, while it boosts your damage quite significantly, it also is strong by itself with its bleed effect. Also note that the bleed damage (both the initial damage and the DoT) from the ability itself will also contribute to the delayed "explosion"!

    Passive abilities
    * Seal Fate - No change. Since it does not add anything for AoE rotations, look further down for a new passive called "Vicious Intent"
    * Venomous Wounds - Same as now, but i'd revamp it to less energy granted for each proc due to Overkill being brought back. Since i also changed Garrote to deal damage each 2 seconds (similar to Rupture), Garrote is better to use as the opener for Assassination. To balance this passive further, maybe add a 2 second cooldown between the energyprocs (but not for the poisonprocs ofc), but also make it a 100% chance to trigger it?
    * Overkill - Instead of triggering from stealth and onwards (so that Vanish is not a dps cooldown), it triggers from Cold Blood (after it's consumed) and Assassinate (the new ability). Description could be something like this: "Your energy regeneration is increased by 30% for 20(ish) seconds after consuming Cold Blood or using Assassinate."
    To make sure there is no annoying duration-clipping (if you were to use both abilities after one another), the duration could stack on top of eachother. Also not that Assassinate is VERY energy-costly (costs like 80 energy), which makes it fit function-wise very well imo.
    * Blindside - A possible change i'd suggest: Blindside could reduce the cost of Dispatch a little (50% energy reduction?) rather than a 100% energy reduction, and should also be proccable from Dispatch itself, but an energy-reduced Blindside-Dispatch should not be able to reproc another Blindside (Right? Cuz i think it would be too OP otherwise)
    * Assassin's Resolve - No change
    * Improved Poisons - Pretty much the same, but to make sure it goes along with the new speed-independant poison changes: Increases the PPM for poisons on autoattacks, as well as the % chance for poisons to trigger from abilities by whatever balanced amount.
    * Cut to the Chase - Add Crimson Tempest to renew Slice and Dice as well (otherwise you would probably wanna Envenom rather than Crimson Tempest on AoE phases)
    * Vicious Intent (Completely new!) - A talent meant to help a little with Assassination's AoE / ranged dps, through the new ability Poison Cloud, as well as improve the new Venom Strike ability for single target dps. Here is what his passive does: "Each time your Poison Cloud or Venom Strike deals damage, they generate a combo point. Cannot gain a combo point more than once per 6 seconds from this passive."
    Since the cooldown of this passive is 6 seconds and Poison Cloud and Venom Strike both have a duration of 10 seconds, this passive can max grant you 2 combo points. Seems balanced and interesting, no?

    Mastery
    * Potent Poisons - Increases the damage done by your Lethal Poisons, Envenom, Venom Strike and Poison Cloud by X%. Whatever number is balanced ofc. By having these four abilities granted a damage bonus, it makes sure Mastery is useful in ALL circumstances: Passive attacking (Lethal), Active attacking (Lethal, Envenom, Venom, Cloud), AoE (Lethal, Cloud), Single target (Lethal, Venom, Envenom) and ranged (Cloud).
    That makes it a really good and interesting Mastery imo!

    COMBAT:
    Active abilities
    * Sinister Strike - No particular change, but should hit harder imo. Like, 40 energy cost still, but 135% (or more) weapon damage or so. And it should have that 1.45x more damage with daggers thing, so you can choose which weapon you want in the mainhand.
    * Flash Strikes - A new ability which replaces Revealing Strikes for Combat:
    "Slashes the target quickly with three fast weapon strikes, each dealing 80% weapon damage. Awards 2 combo points."
    The point of this ability is that it awards 2 combo points and costs more energy (Like, 50-60 or so) and has a moderate cooldown, say, 18 seconds?
    Something to further make it unique could be like: "Haste also reduces this ability's cooldown", and/or "Haste increases this ability's chance to critically hit", and/or "This ability cannot be dodged (as a hint to the old Surprise Attack talent in WotLK)" or something like that, to emphasize on its speedy attackstyle.
    The reason this ability would go well along with combat (on top of its "swashbuckly", flashier and speedy style) is due to a change i have made to how Combat generates extra combo points (more to that in the passives). Oh yeah, and the 1.45x more damage with daggers thingy should also apply imo.
    EDIT: To make this Flash Strikes ability REALLY stand out, i also have a minor glyph idea for it:
    Glyph of Flashier Strikes - "Makes your Flash Strikes even flashier! When Flash Strikes is used its attacks are performed in such a fashion that they form the shape of the first letter in your name!"
    What that means is that the flashy animation now takes the shape of your first letter. Think of something similar to Zorro, where he slashes a "Z" onto his enemies with his sword
    * Riposte - Oldie, but a goodie. Also made it useable in PvE! Here's the description:
    "Instantly strikes the target with a cunning attack, dealing 175% weapon damage and increases your parry chance by 10% for 5 seconds. Parrying, or in any way avoiding damage (be it by physical or spell damage, by dodging or being missed etc) or activating Feint reduces the cooldown of this ability by 1 second. This reduction cannot happen more than once per second. This ability counts as 40 energy spent in regards to Bandit's Guile. Awards 1 combo point." 25 energy cost, 10 second cooldown or so. Now the ability can be used whenever you want (rather than only after parrying), but does have that defensive feel to it with the parry boost and the cooldown reduction upon defensive actions or using Feint (i think that is a nice touch btw!). The Bandit's Guile thing, i think it is understandable once you have read about Bandit's Guile and my change to it (it's a little further down, in Combat's passives).
    * Adrenaline Rush - I guess it doesn't really need a change, it's really powerful. However, instead of adding haste, i'd rather have this ability reduce your global cooldown by 25% or so instead, to synergize with the increased energy gain (Good idea?)
    * Killing Spree - I personally like it's "teleporty" style, but i'd also add that daggers should deal 1.45x more damage, so it doesn't matter what weapon types you wield when using this ability. While im not exactly promoting daggers, it's just to make sure that they are viable at LEAST in the offhand.
    * Blade Flurry - This needs a heavy change. It is far too strong at the moment. I have some different ideas how it could be changed. Here are some of them:
    1) 30 sec cd, 12 sec duration - All autoattacks simply cleave onto 2 additional targets (with possible reduced damage on the additional targets)(Blade Flurry Glyph could make it cleave onto ALL targets in front of you, but the cleave damage is evenly divided among all the targets (based on 2 additional (or maybe 3?) targets).
    2) No cooldown, lasts until turned off (similar to now) - Your autoattacks only deal 75% of original damage, but attacks up to 2 additional nearby targets.

    Passive abilities
    * Bandit's Guile - Changed from the boring plain damage booster into something COMPLETELY different. This passive does this: "For each 200 energy you have spent on offensive abilities that have hit at least one target (so it counts for all AoE attacks too!), you generate an additional combo point"
    This is a particular reason why the new ability Flash Strikes' heavy energy cost goes so well with Combat! There should be some kind of indicator below your regular energy bar that displays how much energy you have spent this way, so you can plan ahead if you will soon get a new combo point. Note that even finishers like Eviscerate contribute towards this!
    This feels like a new and refreshing idea, right?
    Additional notes: With Shadow Focus and using an opener (like Ambush), it still counts as consuming the energy, even if no actual energy is consumed. Also, this ability might also make the Sinister Strike glyph more viable (even though i guess it still probably needs a change regardless)
    * Restless Blades - Same, but Redirect is obviously gone from the abilities affected...
    * Combat Potency - Same as now (good offhand speed change thing! With the addition of the poison mechanic change i suggested at the beginning, this could make you use a slow non-dagger in your offhand if you want, while daggers would still be just as viable! So everyone wins from this!)
    * Vitality - Same as now
    * Ambidexterity - Same as now
    * Embrace of the Snake - Another "new" passive: "Increases your chance to dodge by 5%, your attack speed by 5%, the damage of Sinister Strike by 10% and your armor contribution from cloth and leather items by 25%".
    Yes, lots of boring passive bonuses, but it is there to help make the Combat Spec feel more "tanky" than the other two specs. Oh, and to balance up Sinister Strike's damage, hehe ^^
    * Aggression - Another new(ish) passive: "All your directly damaging attacks ignore up to 15% of your opponent's armor, and your critical strikes ignore an additional 5% (or 10?) of your opponent's armor". To help a little with heavy armor targets and also to increase value of crit rating for Combat Rogues.

    Mastery
    * Main Gauche - Keep it the way it is (has massive synergy with Flash Strikes too btw!) but the name for it could be changed then, as Main Gauche is French for "left hand", and is a type of dagger carried by a swordfighter in his off-hand for parrying attacks. So, as this Mastery no longer has anything to do with the offhand, i think a namechange is in place. No idea what though, but it shouldn't be too hard to come up with something related to fencing/fast attacking/martial arts etc.
    I'm still pondering on ideas to somehow link it to the offhand though, without making it favor either a slow or fast weapon. Will update later!
    EDIT: A new Mastery-idea, which is still quite similar to Main Gauche, but made so it has no preference for weapon speeds etc:
    * Blade Dancer - "You have a X% chance (chance increased by Mastery rating) that your auto-attacks swings twice (mainhand triggers another mainhand attack, offhand triggers another offhand attack) and that your abilities strike your target with an attack dealing damage equal to [40% AP] as bleed damage.

    SUBTLETY:
    Active abilities
    * Hidden Strike - "An instant hidden strike that deals 140% weapon damage (1.45x more with daggers) and has a 10% increased chance to critically hit. In addition, this strike deals 30% more damage and has an additional 10% increased chance to critically hit if you attack the back of the target or if the target is permanently immune to stuns. Awards 1 combo point. Replaces Sinister Strike"
    Costs 35 energy.
    Pretty much Backstab merged with the old Hemorrhage (the instant damage component of it). This ability changes quite a few things:
    1) No need to spam for the button if you "can't get behind", it will still attack (good in pvp) with high damage
    2) Bosses that you can't get behind now take full damage!
    3) You can use this ability (and essentially Backstab) with ANY weapon type!
    Isn't all that quite neat? Besides, i like the ability name, lol. I think it fits the spec theme well.
    (NOTE: Imo, Feral's Shred ability should have the same mechanic. Mangle can then simply be scrapped for the Cat Druids)
    * Hemorrhage - "An instant strike that deals 110% weapon damage (1.45x more with daggers), causing profuse bleeding that deals an additional 100% weapon damage (1.45x more with daggers) as bleed damage over 24 sec. Awards 1 combo point."
    Still keeps its low 30 energy cost.
    Now when Hidden Strike takes care of being the instant damage strike, this strike is now more focused on the bleeding part. Also, due to the combo point change (stacking on yourself), this ability can be used to quickly DoT up multiple targets if so is wanted. Also, since the bleed is now directly weapon based (and not based on the direct strike's damage), this DoT can now also critically hit on each tick!
    * Ghostly Strike - EDIT: Removed the ability "Subtle Shadow", merging it with this oldschool attack! This attack is meant for both aoe and single target dps.
    "Instantly attack your target with a mysterious strike, dealing 150% weapon damage (x1.45 with daggers) and applies Ghostly Touch. Ghostly Touch causes the target to suffer (50% AP) damage over 5 sec as Shadow damage. When the Ghostly Touch effect ends or the target dies, all enemies within 8 yards of the target (and the target itself) suffers (50% AP) as Shadow damage. Damage done by Ghostly Touch does not cause any threat and does not break crowd control effects. Awards 2 combo points."
    Costs 40 energy. 20 - 30 second cooldown or so.
    Other ideas i had for the ability that could be add are:
    1) "and makes your Hidden Strike ability receive all of its bonuses just like if you were behind the target, regardless of wether you are behind the target or not."
    Would make it useful in pvp in particular. It would be good if the debuff lasted longer though.
    2) "and grants you the buff Ghostly Reach. Ghostly Reach causes all your melee attacks to have X yards longer attack range (like, double or triple melee range than normal?)."
    The Ghostly Strike ability itself should ofc also have an extended range itself, otherwise this bonus would be kinda pointless.
    Regardless of what features are added to it, maybe it feels a too "magickey", but i was thinking that Subtlety should be the more mysterious spec of the 3 Rogue trees (more "Ninja/Shadow Warrior"-like if you will). Also, since this ability's dot and aoe doesn't break cc or causes any threat, i thought that it really fit with the whole SUBTLETY theme, ya know?
    * Premeditation - A couple of things changed:
    1) Due to the combo points stacking on yourself, it no longer needs a target anymore to be used!
    2) Can be used out of stealth!
    3) Grants 5 combo points (up from 2!) but cooldown is also increased to 45 seconds (up from 20 seconds)
    Also, since some changes has been made to how you generate combo points as Subtlety, this ability is now more valued than it currently was.
    * Shadow Dance - Heavily changed to be a lot less clunky (people will probably hate the idea, but meh, it's worth to post the idea):
    "Instantly vanish into stealth and summon a Shadow Clone at your current position. The Shadow Clone attacks your enemy with full damage (100%!), uses Hidden Strike, has the same health and Energy as you currently do when you summon it and will prioritize to attack your currently chosen target. The Shadow Clone last 12 seconds (or whatever balanced number)"
    No cost, 1 minute cooldown, no internal cooldown with Vanish! An idea would also be that, when you go into stealth with this ability and the Shadow Clone is summoned, the enemy who was targetting you will not notice at all, as it should make your enemy have the Shadow Clone targetted right away if it was targetting you. For ultimate deceipt you know?
    So, this heavily reduces the amount of Ambushes/Cheap Shots/Garrote from the old Shadow Dance to just ONE opener instead, but still keeps a lot of damage through the Shadow Clone. Since it now ACTUALLY goes into stealth, but only once, it also is a lot more balanced with the first stealth talents as well. This ability was changed to use actual stealth to further make this spec emphasize on stealth, obviously.
    Also note that, since you now only can use one opener (or two with Subterfuge) from Shadow Dance, all openers can now hit quite a bit harder too, instead of feeling rather "meh" in damage.

    Passives abilities
    * Opportunistic Fighter - I have 2 different versions
    a) "You have a 20% chance to gain a combo point whenever you hit with your offensive combo moves, and a 40% chance when you hit with your melee finishers or stealth openers. 1 sec cooldown."
    b) "Whenever you deal damage with your Rogue bleed effects you have a 50% chance to gain a combo point. 2 sec cooldown."
    Either version is meant as the main combo point builder/helper. Sure, you could say that version A is pretty much just stolen from the Sinister Strike cp-mechanic of Combat and merged with the old Ruthlessness (and Initiative, but weaker), but hey, it adds a little bit of randomness to Subtlety. Note: For FoK and Crimson Tempest on Version A, the chance isn't higher if you hit more people, the chance is just based on the useage itself (if it hits at least one person ofc).
    Version B is meant to emphasize the bleed aspects of Subtlety, but i dunno if that would be boring/weird/bad/overpowered? I'd also say that the bleed doesn't have to deal DAMAGE to proc (so if the damage is absorbed, it can still proc the combo point for you)
    Regardless of what version is the best, i just don't like HaT as it is, due to its reliance on others, and being balanced around being in a raid (which means it is really weak the less people you have with you). If prefer to rely more on my own playing skill etc, rather than the size of my group to get CPs...
    * Sanguinary Vein - Back to the old version (meaning, you deal X% more damage on targets that suffers from any of your bleeds). Current version (you deal X% more damage on targets that suffers from your Rupture or Garrote ONLY) is REALLY way too restrictive and hampering in lots of ways, in particular for target switching, but mostly for overall damage in PvP. The Hemorrhage synergy is so nice, keep it that way! In addition, i'd keep the bonus lower (like absolute max 15% damage bonus) so it feels less hampering without bleeds on the target, and instead make all abilities etc hit harder baseline.
    * Energetic Recovery - Now grants 12 energy every 3 seconds when either Slice and Dice or Recuperate is active (No, they shouldn't stack). Why allow both? Well, to allow options. In PvE you would prefer Slice and Dice obviously, while in PvP you probably won't use Slice and Dice nearly as much (also due to the nerf i suggested too), but rather Recuperate. Simply adds more flexibility.
    * Sinister Calling - Same as now (but lowered numbers i guess, so the spec doesn't scale too fast?)
    * Serrated Blades - Changed heavily into this: "Your Eviscerate and Deadly Throw abilities refresh your Rupture on the target to its original duration. In addition, applying or refreshing Garrote or Rupture also does instant damage equalling up to 15% of their total periodic effects."
    A subtle change is that it isn't chance-based to refresh (1cp Evis or DT is enough to refresh), and that Deadly Throw can also refresh it.
    The refresh stuff, and the "up to" thing i will explain with this simple list:
    1) Applying Garrote always deals 15% of its total dot damage instantly, on top of its actual dot damage.
    2) Applying Rupture always deals 15% of its total dot damage (damage ofc depends on the combo points used for it), on top of its actual dot damage.
    3) Refreshing Rupture deals between 3% - 15% of its total damage, depending on the number of combo points used in the Evis/DT that refreshes it. (Linear scaling, 3% damage per combo point)
    This instant damage upon refreshing is to encourage refreshing Rupture as often as possible, preferably with 5 Combo Points Eviscerates.
    * Hunger for Blood - A new passive: "Whenever you critically hit with any of your attacks (this means everything: Autoattacks, bleed effects, single target attacks and aoe attacks), you gain a charge of Hunger for Blood. Each charge of Hunger for Blood reduces the energy cost of your next finishing move by 1. Stacks up to 25 times."
    Just an idea to make sure crit is also a more valuable stat for Subt, and to give a little more emphasis on finishers. Might be a bad ability-idea perhaps? I'd really like lots of feedback on this one.
    Now onwards to 2 passives i have a bit trouble balancing:
    Master of Subtlety and Find Weakness...
    - MoS has an annoying (yes, annoying) synergy with Rupture and Serrated Blades
    - Find Weakness has a dissynergy with Shadow Blades (the new DPS cooldown)
    So to make sure that Rupture is not affected, and to make Shadow Blades useable without wasting "Find Weakness", here is my new (merged MoS and FW) passive:
    * Master of Subtlety - "Your directly damaging abilities made while stealthed and for 15 seconds after breaking stealth ignores up to 50%(ish) of the opponent's armor."
    It only affects DIRECTLY damaging ABILITIES (aka, no bonus for bleeds or any other DoT, nor autoattacks) and on top of that, the overall bonus is lower compared to MoS + FW, but the duration is much longer (numbers can always change ofc)

    Mastery
    A few ideas how to improve or change this mastery:
    1) Shadow Wounds (name related to Shadows/Subtlety) - You deal X% Shadow damage bonus on ALL abilities (including bleed effects!), but not autoattacks. Pretty much makes it the Shadow Equivalent of Ret Paladin's Mastery Hand of Light. I personally think this Mastery is better, as it seems to make the Mastery stat more appealing overall, as Subt Mastery (afaik) is pretty much crap atm. And it also sort of brings back some of the "armor penetration" feeling.
    2) Executioner - Make it affect not only your finishers but also you OPENERS. Imo, this is a decent attempt to upgrade this Mastery, but honestly i think the Shadow Wounds seems way better.


    GLYPHS:
    Note: This is just what i have thought of right now, might edit more later!

    * Glyph of Shadow Walk - Instead of becoming a pretty much necessary stealth detection buffer, i have a different idea: "After using Shadow Walk, your next Ambush or Abduct within 10 seconds does not require you to be behind your target. However, if these abilities are used from the front, Ambush has its increased critical hit chance bonus reduced by 15% (i suggested a 30% critical hit chance bonus baked into it) and Abduct jumps back 5 yards less."
    That would make it a more useful glyph, but still not OP (i think).
    * Glyph of Feint - Instead of increasing the duration a little, how about this: "Your feint no longer has an energy cost, but now has a 15(ish) second cooldown"? Is that too good? Or even too bad?
    * Glyph of Kick - I have 2 ideas for this:
    a) Just plainly reduces the cooldown of Kick by 2 seconds.
    b) Also grants Kick a 2 second SILENCE on it, on top of its interruption!
    * Glyph of Flashier Strikes - As was mentioned for Combat with its new Flash Strike ability, i had this new silly minor glyph idea:
    "Makes your Flash Strikes even flashier! When Flash Strikes is used its attacks are performed in such a fashion that they form the shape of the first letter in your name!"
    What that means is that the flashy animation now takes the shape of your first letter. Think of something similar to Zorro, where he slashes a "Z" onto his enemies with his sword


    FIXES TO WEIRD MECHANICS/BUGS:
    Stealth openers (Ambush, Sap etc) vs Hunter Camo - These should work against Hunters who are in Camoflauge. All stealth abilities (with the exception of Distract i guess) should count as melee attacks in regards to at least Camo'd Hunters.


    I hope you like my ideas! Please give comments, critique and whatnot! ^^
    Last edited by azamagon; 2012-09-24 at 09:09 PM.

  2. #2
    waste of time they don't listen to rogue ideas

  3. #3
    Some of them are interesting, but here is one thing you overlooked: Main Gauche should NOT have the 1.45x dagger multiplier. It will more or less make daggers mandatory. Remember that daggers swing more often so you get more MG procs with them.

  4. #4
    Lots of proposed changes are overpowered through the roof. And allowing combo points to stack on rogue is dumbing class down a mile. Find weakness redesign will gimp subt against heavy armored classes, and with shadowblades being 3 min cd it's easy to avoid overlaping them.
    Executioner mastery needs either a rework or serious number tweaks, but if you allow it to affect openers then shadowdance burst from mastery stacking rogue is going to be through the roof. Copying ret mastery is even worse then having a gimped one. Energetic recovery tied to SnD is a design decision to lower rogues selfhealing and force upon rogues a choice between dmg or survivability.
    Also don't see a single reason to give rogue shadow dot ability, we already have bleeds and poisons (if what buff bleeds seriously). Daggers for combat is also something i hope won't ever happen, already have 2 dagger based specs.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Vital View Post
    waste of time they don't listen to rogue ideas
    Just wanted to vent my ideas, no harm in that right?

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Some of them are interesting, but here is one thing you overlooked: Main Gauche should NOT have the 1.45x dagger multiplier. It will more or less make daggers mandatory. Remember that daggers swing more often so you get more MG procs with them.
    Well, i changed which hands you procced FROM and TO, but yeah, i had a brainfart in general with Main Gauche. It's quite hard to balance, so i think i'll go back to the one they have now (mainhand proccing mainhand).

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyaldee View Post
    Lots of proposed changes are overpowered through the roof. And allowing combo points to stack on rogue is dumbing class down a mile. Find weakness redesign will gimp subt against heavy armored classes, and with shadowblades being 3 min cd it's easy to avoid overlaping them.
    Executioner mastery needs either a rework or serious number tweaks, but if you allow it to affect openers then shadowdance burst from mastery stacking rogue is going to be through the roof. Copying ret mastery is even worse then having a gimped one. Energetic recovery tied to SnD is a design decision to lower rogues selfhealing and force upon rogues a choice between dmg or survivability.
    Also don't see a single reason to give rogue shadow dot ability, we already have bleeds and poisons (if what buff bleeds seriously). Daggers for combat is also something i hope won't ever happen, already have 2 dagger based specs.
    I say this in pure politeness: Would you mind pointing out more specifically what things you deem overpowered? I like criticism to improve you know! ^^
    Now to some of your more specific points:
    * Combo points stacking on self should've been done ages ago. I personally don't think it dumbs down the class, but just adds diversity and removes the clunkiness of Redirect. You can see the clunkiness as well with the new FoK and Crimson Tempest, as i mentioned in my original point. As i guess this will be an opinion vs opinon thing, we can just leave it at that ^^
    * Executioner (if that Mastery is kept, i prefer the other one a lot more) i don't think would be too overpowered, as i also dramatically changed Shadow Dance, i dunno if you missed that perhaps?
    * The other Mastery i proposed (the somewhat equivalent of the Ret one, but in Shadow) is not an EXACT copy though, as Hand of Light just affects a certain few abilities, and it affects them very much. I was thinking of ALL damaging abilities having this Shadow bonus damage, maybe even autoattacks (although, i think that is a bit too much).
    * The Shadow dot thing you speak of, you mean the Subt specific one, Subtle Shadow? Well, i was just trying to make the specs more thematic: Combat more of a martial artist or swashbuckler, the Assassin a cruel daggerwielding poisoner and Subtlety the mysterious shadow rogue, a bit more ninja-y. Sure, i could remove Subtle Shadow too, but i will keep it there because i think the idea is neat. But i will for sure add to its text that it is a somewhat unnecessary ability, more just a flavor skill.
    * Allowing daggers to be viable for Combat as well i thought would be a cool idea to make sure that the Combat has that "martial art" and weaponmaster feel to it, were any weapon is good in a fight if you just have the skills for it. Compared to Subt and Assassin, Combat uses weapons in a more "flashy" and skilled "face-to-face" way, while the other two use them more in cruel, dirty and sneaky ways. And daggers can certainly be used in any of those styles. But i would be ok with taking away the daggers from Combat again (they don't realy NEED that option), i just wanted to share the idea.
    Last edited by azamagon; 2012-04-28 at 01:26 PM.

  6. #6
    Bump! Updated quite a lot of the initial post too.

  7. #7
    Epic! Myz's Avatar
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    Friendly advice: Using bold and underlined titles would make it a lot easier on the eyes. Reading it now

  8. #8
    Dreadlord Ninaran's Avatar
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    Some really great ideas. Just gotta hope that Blizzard reads these forums.

    What about an ability that works like the old Thistle Tea? Activating to get 100 Energy..
    Last edited by Ninaran; 2012-05-21 at 01:19 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninaran View Post
    Some really great ideas. Just gotta hope that Blizzard reads these forums.

    What about an ability that works like the old Thistle Tea? Activating to get 100 Energy..
    Thanks I have an idea for a thistle tea replacement too (will add it right away!)
    Bumping this due to also having added/changed a LOT more again!
    Among other things, Combat has gotten Riposte back (with some changes ofc), and Subtlety has gotten Ghostly Strike back
    Last edited by azamagon; 2012-08-08 at 10:24 AM.

  10. #10
    Definitely a good read. I suggest you to properly format the post so it is more readable.

    Maybe MMOchamp isn't used by Blizzard as a source of ideas, but contructive discussion is always good.

    EDIT: i will be properly commenting your ideas when the post is fixed

  11. #11
    Dreadlord Ninaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azamagon View Post
    Among other things, Combat has gotten Riposte back (with some changes ofc), and Subtlety has gotten Ghostly Strike back
    Good one, was thinking about these the other day, but forgot to write it down.
    Nice to see someone else thinks about them.

    Those in the talent tree would be so much better than our boring one..

  12. #12
    Ghostcrawler even stated that the dev team thinks rogues are in a good place and don't need any big changes, don't get your hopes up for any changes, another expansion with crappy mechanics or atleast till patch where some band aid fixes will come.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Definitely a good read. I suggest you to properly format the post so it is more readable.

    Maybe MMOchamp isn't used by Blizzard as a source of ideas, but contructive discussion is always good.

    EDIT: i will be properly commenting your ideas when the post is fixed
    I added bold and underlined parts to make it easier to read (i hope)
    I'd love to hear more comments ^^

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninaran View Post
    Good one, was thinking about these the other day, but forgot to write it down.
    Nice to see someone else thinks about them.

    Those in the talent tree would be so much better than our boring one..
    Yeah, nostalgia ftw
    However, i didn't add them as TALENTS, but rather as seperate abilities for the different specs:
    * Riposte for Combat
    * Ghostly Strike for Subtlety
    * And a new ability called Venom Strike for Assassination

    Quote Originally Posted by Findme View Post
    Ghostcrawler even stated that the dev team thinks rogues are in a good place and don't need any big changes, don't get your hopes up for any changes, another expansion with crappy mechanics or atleast till patch where some band aid fixes will come.
    I know. Feels a little lazy of them though. I mean, i have given this some thought and written it all by my myself (ofc i got inspired by other forumites etc) and i think i have done a decent job spicing up the class quite a bit (i hope *shyface*). So if I can do it, so should they. But, unfortunately, it feels more like they are being lazy and just keeping WoW as their little cashcow these days :/

    One more thing: Don't think that I'm all biased towards rogues btw. If i had time (aka, worked as a developer) i would be doing these kinds of "spicing up" and QoL changes for ALL specs and classes! But i think that rogues (which indeed is my fav class, yes >_>) need it the most of all classes! I guess Shaman are the next in need for this "spicing up" :P

  14. #14
    Keep in mind that rogue class has always been good - in the sense that we have always had our spot both in PvE and in PvP.

    If i have to choose between rogues complaining about thir class being stale and every otehr class + maybe rogues complaining our class is broken, i'd choose the first one.

  15. #15
    Some really great ideas there and a lot of effort made. Nice work.

    Its a shame that all some people can manage is glib one-liner comments.

    Some ideas seem a little op. I'll need time to digest it all though.

  16. #16
    I like the idea of combo points on the character (for ferals as well), but storing up to 10 CPs is too many IMO. The paladin equivalent (Boundless Conviction) allows to store ~66% more HP, which should be applied to this as well. For a 5 CP system this means storing an additional 3 CPs. It should also not be learned at lvl 1, but at the same lvl as the paladin's, whatever level that is.

    Shuriken Toss in its current form should stay a lvl 90 talent IMO. It drastically changes how Rogues close distance or kite, and this change should be an active choice. As for your suggestions, I feel 2 AoE moves are redundant (Deadly Horizon and Razor Chakram).

    Vendetta should stay due to it granting vision. Deadly delay is basically increased bleed debuff, but as a final burst instead. Venom Strike is just another DoT, unneeded and fills no new roles. Vicious Intent just adds more of the same from Seal Fate together with FoK.

    Flash Strikes should replace the current Revealing Strike, with the bonus to finishers.

    New Bandit's Guile doesn't fit Combat's goal of strong CP generators. Keep your idea about recorded energy usage, but upon reaching 200 let it apply a damage bonus that tapers off over a duration.

    Shadow Wounds should only proc on bleeds, to keep the bleed-heavy theme of Subtlety.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Keep in mind that rogue class has always been good - in the sense that we have always had our spot both in PvE and in PvP.

    If i have to choose between rogues complaining about thir class being stale and every otehr class + maybe rogues complaining our class is broken, i'd choose the first one.
    I agreed, and that is what i meant of course. I didn't mean oomphing it up much in terms of performance, but rather in fun-factor

    Quote Originally Posted by redderz1 View Post
    Some really great ideas there and a lot of effort made. Nice work.

    Its a shame that all some people can manage is glib one-liner comments.

    Some ideas seem a little op. I'll need time to digest it all though.
    Thanks man!
    Some might seem OP if you look at my Rogue ideas alone, without the regard of the ideas i have for other classes (which i haven't posted :P)
    Regardless though, would you be so kind to tell me what you think seems a little op?

    Quote Originally Posted by ugeowhopwr View Post
    I like the idea of combo points on the character (for ferals as well), but storing up to 10 CPs is too many IMO. The paladin equivalent (Boundless Conviction) allows to store ~66% more HP, which should be applied to this as well. For a 5 CP system this means storing an additional 3 CPs. It should also not be learned at lvl 1, but at the same lvl as the paladin's, whatever level that is.
    Whatever combo point amount is balanced of course. But i don't see why it is that OP to let the Rogue be able to plan some burst? Most classes can do that.
    And imo, i think the Boundless Conviction passive should also be at level 1. Why should you need to alter your playstyle so much when you reach a very high level? Isn't the main playstyle mechanics supposed to be trained from as early as possible so you can learn while you level up?

    Shuriken Toss in its current form should stay a lvl 90 talent IMO. It drastically changes how Rogues close distance or kite, and this change should be an active choice.
    You mean drastically change the way you play, just like Exorcism does for Paladins (whch is a baseline ability)? Or the Fire Blossom thing (Shuriken equivalent) that the Monk's have baseline (which is also baseline)? Or an ability which most classes have? Like i said in the comments for it, it should definitely not be made overpowered in any way. If it has no cooldown: Let it have a high energy cost. If it has low energy cost: Let it have a short cooldown. But simply making it impossible to do what every other class can without taking a talent which is quite situational? That's just bad design imo.

    As for your suggestions, I feel 2 AoE moves are redundant (Deadly Horizon and Razor Chakram).
    How so? Because they are too similar to one another?) I was thinking of making the tier somewhat similar to the Hunter's level 90 tier, but i guess i haven't been able to do the abilities original enough? I just wanted them to be similar enough to be easy to balance, but different enough so they have different situational uses. So what would you recommend me to do? More differentiated in style?

    Vendetta should stay due to it granting vision.
    I guess it could stay yeah, but i personally find it extremely boring. Strong yes, but really boring.

    Deadly delay is basically increased bleed debuff, but as a final burst instead. Venom Strike is just another DoT, unneeded and fills no new roles.
    Deadly Delay was my attempt at making a more interesting DPS cooldown that were to really fit with the Assassination theme. And it also increases poison damage, not just bleed damage, to synergize with all your Assassination abilities.
    Venom Strike i have to agreed though, it might be a tad dull, but i wanted to give something new for Assassination too, since Combat got Riposte and Subt got Ghostly Strike. That way all 3 specs have 3 distinct strikes each:
    Combat - Sinister Strike is your filler, Riposte and Flash Strikes are your heavy hitting strike cooldowns with different styles to them
    Subt - Hidden Strike is your filler, Hemo is your Bleed DoT and Ghostly is your Shadow DoT/AoE cooldown strike
    Assa - Mutilate is your filler, Dispatch is your Proc/Execute strike, Venom Strike is your Poison DoT cooldown strike
    I guess i could add something more to Venom Strike other than its randomized poison damage to make it more interesting.

    Vicious Intent just adds more of the same from Seal Fate together with FoK.
    Actually, i gave Vicious Intent to make sure Assa also had a better Power / Combo Point flow in AoE. On top of FoK, Crimson Tempest, Poison Cloud and various cooldowns, Assassination has nothing special about its AoE rotation, while Combat has the Blade Flurry "stance" and Subt has the Ghostly Strike ability. That's why i wanted to make sure Poison Cloud was stronger with its combo point generation for Assassination to make its AoE rotations different rather than just adding another ability for the spec (too similar to the other 2 specs)

    Flash Strikes should replace the current Revealing Strike, with the bonus to finishers.
    While Revealing Strike's finisher bonus sure is unique, it honestly feels too strong (in particular with Kidney Shot). And since Flash Strikes is a cooldown ability (compared to Revealing Strike being spammable), it would not be so good for target switching. I guess i just don't really like the Revealing Strike mechanic *shrugs*

    New Bandit's Guile doesn't fit Combat's goal of strong CP generators. Keep your idea about recorded energy usage, but upon reaching 200 let it apply a damage bonus that tapers off over a duration.
    I dunno, that idea just seems too... "tacked on"? I REALLY dislike the in-game Bandit's Guile mechanic. There is enough rampup already with having to use Slice and Dice and building Combo Points in general.

    Shadow Wounds should only proc on bleeds, to keep the bleed-heavy theme of Subtlety.
    I think that might favour bleeds too much, no? Especially since you only have Garrote, Rupture and Hemo...
    It's an interesting idea though, i will keep it in mind
    Last edited by azamagon; 2012-08-11 at 04:24 PM.

  18. #18
    why not submit your suggestions to blizz? unless you did that already I dont see the point of posting it here. you will either get praised for your good ideas or laughed at for the meaningless effort you put in. interesting either way
    ~

  19. #19
    You mean drastically change the way you play, just like Exorcism does for Paladins (whch is a baseline ability)? Or the Fire Blossom thing (Shuriken equivalent) that the Monk's have baseline (which is also baseline)?
    Exorcism and Fire Blossom are specialization abilities for choosing Retribution and Windwalker, respectively. I was referring to using Shuriken Toss followed up by a Deadly Throw (which should be baselined and glyphed to interrupt) to slow or kite. I still feel Shuriken Toss should take the place of a lvl 90 talent.

    How so? Because they are too similar to one another?) I was thinking of making the tier somewhat similar to the Hunter's level 90 tier, but i guess i haven't been able to do the abilities original enough? I just wanted them to be similar enough to be easy to balance, but different enough so they have different situational uses. So what would you recommend me to do? More differentiated in style?
    I feel with Fan of Knives generating combo points now, Deadly Horizon would just be more of the same.

    I guess it could stay yeah, but i personally find it extremely boring. Strong yes, but really boring.
    Most dps cooldowns are boring. Bloodlust/Heroism is the prime example.

    Actually, i gave Vicious Intent to make sure Assa also had a better Power / Combo Point flow in AoE. On top of FoK, Crimson Tempest, Poison Cloud and various cooldowns, Assassination has nothing special about its AoE rotation, while Combat has the Blade Flurry "stance" and Subt has the Ghostly Strike ability. That's why i wanted to make sure Poison Cloud was stronger with its combo point generation for Assassination to make its AoE rotations different rather than just adding another ability for the spec (too similar to the other 2 specs)
    This is where you could add an ability that doubles the tick rate for poisons.

    While Revealing Strike's finisher bonus sure is unique, it honestly feels too strong (in particular with Kidney Shot). And since Flash Strikes is a cooldown ability (compared to Revealing Strike being spammable), it would not be so good for target switching. I guess i just don't really like the Revealing Strike mechanic *shrugs*
    Revealing Strike has a weird place in Combat, which should be about strong combo generators. It would feel more in place in Subtlety together with the current Executioner mastery. I felt Flash Strikes + Riposte + Revealing Strikes give too many cooldowned strikes to an energy class.

    I think that might favour bleeds too much, no? Especially since you only have Garrote, Rupture and Hemo...
    I don't think it's a big problem when specs favour one type of damage, it adds identity to the spec.


    As a separate idea inspired by the new Destruction Warlocks' Burning Ember, it might be refreshing for eg. Assassination to use something else rather than combo points. Maybe something that allows them to build up "Poison Flasks" while attacking, up to 3 filled Poison Flasks, then have finishers cost Poison Flasks, with added poison-themed effect.
    Last edited by ugeowhopwr; 2012-08-12 at 08:39 AM.

  20. #20
    BUMP!

    Added a bunch of new things (glyphs etc), but most noteworthy are 2 new things:

    A passive called SPEED OF DARKNESS and a new mobilitytalent called JUXTAPOSITION:

    Speed of Darkness - A new ability to help Rogues not lose too much autoattack damage by stealthing with Vanish or Shadow Dance:
    "Whenever you enter stealth by using Vanish or Shadow Dance, you gather strength from the surrounding shadows and gain Speed of Darkness. The duration of Speed of Darkness builds up for as long as you remain in stealth, but max duration of this ability is 5 seconds. When you then leave stealth your Speed of Darkness is unleashed and you get 100% increased melee attack speed for its built up duration."
    When you go into stealth with Vanish or Shadow Dance in PvE, you lose out on quite a bit of autoattackdamage. This boost is meant to help remove that disadvantage. Maybe this should be a Subtlety passive only?

    Juxtaposition - "Mark your target with a mysterious, haunting shadow. This shadow will remain on the target for up to 12 seconds. While the target is haunted by the shadow you may use this ability again, which will teleport you behind the target and slow the target down by 50% for 5 seconds. The target must be within 40 yards for you to be able to teleport to it but does not require you to be in its line of sight. Neither the act of marking a target with the shadow nor the teleportation breaks stealth"
    A new and very mysterious "ninjalike" ability. After teleporting to the target, the cooldown will start. The act of placing the shadow on a target has no cost other than a global cooldown and should have a 35-ish yard range. This ability could have a 30-ish second cooldown due to being so strong.
    Last edited by azamagon; 2012-09-24 at 08:27 PM.

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