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  1. #21
    Problem with Mage/casters and Rogue/Feral is their resource - it's doing as much as giving you opportunity to use abilities on cooldowns. Energy basically gives abilities shared cooldown that can be lowered greatly by your stats and bypassed in bursts. Utility costs are way too low to punish wrong spending. Combo points were working before they implemented tons of talents giving you extra CPs without any additional cost.
    For warriors resource does not matter much either, but there is one big BUT. Generating it only from meleeing and taking damage makes those actions matter a lot.
    EDIT: His point is not just rage generation from MS, I bet he's more concerned in MS unlocking usage of other abilities.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Punctured View Post
    Im really concerned with the new Changes taking place for MOP, especially the most recent updates.

    Check out WOWHEAD's Talent Calculator for Warriors.

    Lastest updates on Warriors.

    BIG ISSUES (Also we arent getting ANY new abilities).

    1) Stances no longer increase our damage at all, Whats up with that ? As if we arent already weak. From what ive seen on the BETA rage isnt an issue.
    2) Deadly Calm Nerfed, and no longer a specialization ability.
    3) Lose Hamstring Root.
    4) Lose Enraged Regeneration as a baseline healing ability.
    5) We lost far too much Crit again, along with abilities like juggernaut.
    6) Our Cool-Downs still suck, MS got nerfed to a 6 second CD, yet hunters are getting an ability which allow them to spam the mortal strike effect with a longer duration, 30 seconds to our 15 seconds.
    7) Recklessness is still on a 5 minute CD, and it still increases our damage taken, which it shouldnt. We have to waste a Glyph, which talking to high rated Warriors isnt worth it.
    8) Deep wounds damage is terrible, it doesnt seem like its been combined with rend at all.
    9) Staggering shout not viable unless piercing howl is our baseline slow.
    10) Hidden nerf, Colossus Smash is now only for Fury.


    Everyone has our abilities but better versions of them.

    Why arent we getting anything new ?


    Does anyone else besides me notice these things ? Soo little attention is being payed to Warriors. Just look at our Tier and Challenge mode sets, the Art is pathetic, i dont even want to see how bad our PVP set will be.
    New stances are amazing. more rage = more slams/hs dumps. before this patch rage was a big problem. very often you would stand still waiting for us auto attacks when ms in on CD. that was NOT acceptable. besides the new berserker stance adds some sort of punishment to teams who decide to train the warrior in pvp.

    i just logged out from beta.. ARMS still has Die by the sword. still has colossus smash.

    Tho this specific point i agree with you on.. THE LAME GOD DAMN BANNERS HAVE TO GO. give us something new not some lame banners 3mn cd 10 sec duration (dps banner). this is not acceptable when compared to most of what other classes are getting for their 87 skill. yeah and comparing our abilities (avatar/roar) to others 87 abilities is not a fair comparison and has no value.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by cexspa View Post
    New stances are amazing. more rage = more slams/hs dumps. before this patch rage was a big problem. very often you would stand still waiting for us auto attacks when ms in on CD. that was NOT acceptable. besides the new berserker stance adds some sort of punishment to teams who decide to train the warrior in pvp.

    i just logged out from beta.. ARMS still has Die by the sword. still has colossus smash.

    Tho this specific point i agree with you on.. THE LAME GOD DAMN BANNERS HAVE TO GO. give us something new not some lame banners 3mn cd 10 sec duration (dps banner). this is not acceptable when compared to most of what other classes are getting for their 87 skill. yeah and comparing our abilities (avatar/roar) to others 87 abilities is not a fair comparison and has no value.
    I agree on the banner thing 100%!! its just retarded, plus i bet it has like low hp so that way you can one shot it (like the horde/alliance battle standard).
    Just to add... i really don't like warriors atm, every spell has a 1 sec gcd so its hard to get around spells. Overpower should be .5 sec global again and the dmg nerf is alright because overpower is pretty much a normal attack except it cannot be dodged/blocked/parried. And like most people say, if your ms gets parried/dodged/blocked your screwed and have to wait for more rage.
    I think that blizzard still has alot of work to do with warriors, they should add some totally new talents that aren't recognized.
    Last edited by Beefkow; 2012-04-26 at 02:07 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by cexspa View Post
    New stances are amazing. more rage = more slams/hs dumps. before this patch rage was a big problem. very often you would stand still waiting for us auto attacks when ms in on CD. that was NOT acceptable. besides the new berserker stance adds some sort of punishment to teams who decide to train the warrior in pvp.

    i just logged out from beta.. ARMS still has Die by the sword. still has colossus smash.

    Tho this specific point i agree with you on.. THE LAME GOD DAMN BANNERS HAVE TO GO. give us something new not some lame banners 3mn cd 10 sec duration (dps banner). this is not acceptable when compared to most of what other classes are getting for their 87 skill. yeah and comparing our abilities (avatar/roar) to others 87 abilities is not a fair comparison and has no value.
    Well thats the thing too, we arent haste based, we are crit based. Im not sure if crit even gives us more rage upon the critical hit landing anymore. Does it ? If not thats a big issue with the stance, we hit slow. The new Berserker stance is better than the AOE version, but still lacking. At that point its "Oh hey hes in berserker stance, dont touch him", then what ? Still rage starved.

    CD wise this is what we see.

    Shield Wall - 5 minute CD (Still the same old crappy CD)
    Avatar - 3 Minute (20 second duration, more uptime, but does it make up for the previous Avatar on a 1 minute CD, 10 second duration)
    Recklessness - 5 minute CD (12 second duration + 20% increased damage)
    War Banners - 3 minute CD (10 second duration)
    Mortal Strike - (Nerfed, increased CD by 1.5 seconds)
    Die by the Sword - 2 minute CD (8 second duration)
    Berserker Rage - (Nerfed, cut down to 6 seconds still on a 30 second CD)

    But yeah they could do a lot better with the talents/87 ability.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-26 at 02:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    I agree on the banner thing 100%!! its just retarded, plus i bet it has like low hp so that way you can one shot it (like the horde/alliance battle standard).
    Just to add... i really don't like warriors atm, every spell has a 1 sec gcd so its hard to get around spells. Overpower should be .5 sec global again and the dmg nerf is alright because overpower is pretty much a normal attack except it cannot be dodged/blocked/parried. And like most people say, if your ms gets parried/dodged/blocked your screwed and have to wait for more rage.
    I think that blizzard still has alot of work to do with warriors, they should add some totally new talents that aren't recognized.
    Mhm. I completely agree, id like to see some sort of chain ability or something, or an impale.[COLOR="red"]
    Last edited by Punctured; 2012-04-26 at 02:12 PM.

  5. #25
    White crits hadn't generated more rage since... the prepatch of cata. Also, if you stop being hitted by switching to berserker rage, fine. Switch to battle again. You retain up to 100 rage when switching stances and the GCD does not collide with the skill's one.

    PD: Having a low baked-in crit leads to higher base damage and more burst when you crit several times on a row (during recklessness or being lucky) if the rotation dps remains the same, that's not trolling, it's logic. But only IF. If not, yes, we are screwed.

    And yes, they don't know what to do with the banners. They will have to get to them sooner or later.
    Last edited by Espada; 2012-04-26 at 02:27 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinnerbandit View Post
    Last time I checked, you only needed 5% hit to not miss with special attacks against a level 85 target. Also, last time I checked, we still generate rage on attacks that are dodged or parried. So, why is this our biggest issue again?
    Without a manual rend to apply to a target if you are in pvp and you miss a MS then you are SOL unless your opened dodges an attack and are stuck auto attacking until MS comes back off cd. That is the issue most are looking at... and it could be a pve problem if any mob has a -hit debuff they toss on players... there has been plenty in game with them!

  7. #27
    Tbh, it seems you're "complaining" too much, as first, we still don't know the exact numbers at 90, so our damage will be surely balanced around losing the 5% from Battle stance.

    You're listing all the "bad" things, but you're forgetting about what we get, something like a 4s stun on a 20s CD, Heroic Leap on 30s CD (glyphed), Spell reflect back to a decent CD (and back to 10s if glyphed) and the possibility to become Mass SR and with double charge for ourselves, the better Enrage uptime, the possibility to use the banners also for mobility (intervene), Piercing Howl becoming an awesome AoE snare, an additional defensive CD (DbtS) and the buff to Defensive stance (15% reduction and -6% chance of being crit).

    If you're playing a warrior right now (and I think you are), you can be only EXCITED like hell for those changes. We will have gameplay possibilities that we could just dream now.

    One thing I agree with you on, is the MS issue, the concept about MS unlocking usage of other abilities. They should really look at it.

    My 2 cents

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    PD: Having a low baked-in crit leads to higher base damage and more burst when you crit several times on a row (during recklessness or being lucky) if the rotation dps remains the same, that's not trolling, it's logic. But only IF. If not, yes, we are screwed.
    Problem with that approach is that when some random warrior gets a crit-streak (Stars aligning and all that), they'll suddenly be silly overpowered, which will cause whining and then the obligatory nerfs, better to give warriors a fair chance to crit and balance warriors around that (It's more fun to have crits too, IMO)

    I'm holding out hope that the fabled "Numbers pass" will bring some change to the situation (Maybe add flat crit bonus to spec skills or something), but the cynic in me is wary of getting my hopes up too much

  9. #29
    Regarding crit: I was wondering myself, what Blizzard's intentions are. Warriors have very little crit. Only some abilities have a greater chance to crit, but all in all the chance to crit is pretty low. But when I look at retribution, they have ZERO crit. Zero. And since a ret pala is prolly going for str > haste > mastery > crit, a ret on lvl 90 will have ~3% crit or something, assumed the mop scaling of ratings won't differ from cata. What's up with crit? Dks also have kinda zero krit. At least unholy, although I haven't looked too deep into it. Frost still has its silly killing machine.

    I don't like this at all.. I love my warrior and my ret, and my dk not sooo much , but without crit a lot of let's say "immersion" will be missed. And from a ret's perspective: Finally exorcism can crit for 200% (has always been 150%), but we will see it like.. never? It doesn't even crit on demons/undead anymore... What's up with Blizzard?

    Balance has to become really amazing in order to have me satisfied with this critless design.

    I just miss crit very hard on both my chars, the warrior and the ret. It also feels like that my classes both have gotten weaker. Crit is psychologically important to me -_-. And my 2h weapon (in case you give me that silly line of "then reroll").

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayJay09 View Post
    What's up with crit?
    Imagine I put you in charge of balancing something. One thing leans to the left at a constant rate and I want you to make sure its always straight up, then there is another one that leans slowly left but then all of a sudden can move 2 times faster for no reason at random times and sometimes it moves 2 times as fast for 1 second or sometimes for 4 seconds...then nothing..then again it happens.

    What one would you rather be in charge of ensuring stays balanced? That is whats up with crit right now.. way more easy for dev teams to balance dps for pve and pvp if they reduce the amount of rng they got to try and calculate >.<

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Dinnerbandit View Post
    Last time I checked, you only needed 5% hit to not miss with special attacks against a level 85 target. Also, last time I checked, we still generate rage on attacks that are dodged or parried. So, why is this our biggest issue again?
    the problem is that you don't get overpower procs which leaves you basically with slam and cs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatsu View Post
    Tbh, it seems you're "complaining" too much, as first, we still don't know the exact numbers at 90, so our damage will be surely balanced around losing the 5% from Battle stance.
    I am playing a warrior right now and was absolutely fine. Just saying. The only real thing from my perspective that needed streamlining was adding a defensive abilities that don't require a shield and a better snare. Had given up anyways on getting a decent cc.
    We all know that as soon as an rbg season starts the spell reflect will be nerfed or the qq will have massive proportions and it still seems strange that multiple abilities get nerfed when you basically just lost a flat 10% damage.
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    What one would you rather be in charge of ensuring stays balanced? That is whats up with crit right now.. way more easy for dev teams to balance dps for pve and pvp if they reduce the amount of rng they got to try and calculate >.<
    That's what most people may believe sims and spreadsheets are for I guess.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    Imagine I put you in charge of balancing something. One thing leans to the left at a constant rate and I want you to make sure its always straight up, then there is another one that leans slowly left but then all of a sudden can move 2 times faster for no reason at random times and sometimes it moves 2 times as fast for 1 second or sometimes for 4 seconds...then nothing..then again it happens.

    What one would you rather be in charge of ensuring stays balanced? That is whats up with crit right now.. way more easy for dev teams to balance dps for pve and pvp if they reduce the amount of rng they got to try and calculate >.<
    Yeah, but why would they do that now? And what about agility classes or casters? They could just make everything/nothing of them crit.. It'd be easier to balance then as well.

    So, why should crit stay in the game at all then, if it hasn't meaning anymore? I am sure Blizzard would have said something in that regard.

    As it is now I can't do anything but to stay fearful that warrior and ret (who in beta really has <zero> crit. You could spec into sacred shield for a 30% crit chance of WoG, but that would be it. Nothing else has an increased critchance. And crit will be the least favorable stat) will be crit starved in mop.

  13. #33
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    O I totally agree on why keep crit in at all at the rate they are going with us... but the other thing is we scale stupidly based on weapon dmg in the past and then toss crit into the mix and it was a double dip when trying to balance. I was a mage for the better part of 6 years and getting a new wepp was NOTHING compared to getting anew wepp as a war... I still remember getting reg gurth and watching me go from middle of the pack one week in our raid to at the top after. Combine that amount of scaling with crit RNG and it must be one hell of a time trying to figure it out.


    Just to make it clear not trying to make excuses for them...just trying to find a logical explanation I can wrap my brain around so I don't just rage about it as that is what I'm naturally inclined to do at the moment!

  14. #34
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    Im all for Arms not having C Smash! Give arms 70% passive arp at all times like we had in Wrath before we were gutted. Then turn Sudden Death into a proc Heroic Strike or Slam that automatically goes off.

    Much better then having your viability against heavy armor based off random procs and nerfed to 50% when Blizzard cant get the numbers correct.
    You, you'll regret what you have done this day, I will make you regret ever being born, you're going to wish you never left your mother's womb, where it was warm and safe and wet, I am going to show you pain you never knew existed, you're going to see a whole new spectrum of pain, like a Rainbow!
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    Im all for Arms not having C Smash! Give arms 70% passive arp at all times like we had in Wrath before we were gutted. Then turn Sudden Death into a proc Heroic Strike or Slam that automatically goes off.

    Much better then having your viability against heavy armor based off random procs and nerfed to 50% when Blizzard cant get the numbers correct.
    Well don't know I still have colossus for both specs on the beta - but I die from charging so who knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    O I totally agree on why keep crit in at all at the rate they are going with us... but the other thing is we scale stupidly based on weapon dmg in the past and then toss crit into the mix and it was a double dip when trying to balance. I was a mage for the better part of 6 years and getting a new wepp was NOTHING compared to getting anew wepp as a war... I still remember getting reg gurth and watching me go from middle of the pack one week in our raid to at the top after. Combine that amount of scaling with crit RNG and it must be one hell of a time trying to figure it out.
    Sorry but gurth is probably on the same level as shadowmourne was - the only comparable casterweapon is dragonwrath and don't try to tell me that those double arcane blast procs with arcane power up were not awesome when you received the weapon.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2012-04-26 at 04:48 PM.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punctured View Post
    You know trolling is against the rules right buddy ?
    Different opinion doesn't mean someone is trolling...

    As far as Warrior development is in MoP, they change things a lot so maybe you should wait before being too concerned. Also, don't judge the changes based on 4.0 and lvl 85, it doesn't work that way.

    One last thing, Arms still has Sudden Death and don't forget that we're talking about a Beta product so things can be messed up.
    Last edited by Warrax; 2012-04-26 at 05:21 PM.
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatsu View Post
    Tbh, it seems you're "complaining" too much, as first, we still don't know the exact numbers at 90, so our damage will be surely balanced around losing the 5% from Battle stance.

    You're listing all the "bad" things, but you're forgetting about what we get, something like a 4s stun on a 20s CD, Heroic Leap on 30s CD (glyphed), Spell reflect back to a decent CD (and back to 10s if glyphed) and the possibility to become Mass SR and with double charge for ourselves, the better Enrage uptime, the possibility to use the banners also for mobility (intervene), Piercing Howl becoming an awesome AoE snare, an additional defensive CD (DbtS) and the buff to Defensive stance (15% reduction and -6% chance of being crit).

    If you're playing a warrior right now (and I think you are), you can be only EXCITED like hell for those changes. We will have gameplay possibilities that we could just dream now.

    One thing I agree with you on, is the MS issue, the concept about MS unlocking usage of other abilities. They should really look at it.

    My 2 cents
    The problem is all of our changes in MoP are putting us ALMOST into as good of a position as we were in WotLK. All while every single other class and spec in the game only improved in Cataclysm and is becoming even better in MoP. No class or spec was gutted like arms was in Cataclysm and being made to be as good as we were an expansion only keeps us an expansion behind everyone else.

    Examples: avatar is going to be a balancing nightmare even worse than colossus smash. It is MANDATORY in PvP which means their new talent design is utterly failing. The single talent addresses all of the biggest warrior concerns: burst and mobility. Just a terrible idea all around unless it's brought back to a one minute cd with a LOT shorter duration.

    Heroic leap being 30 seconds is pretty much exactly like how having charge and intercept was in WotLK. It isn't an improvement. It's putting us back to how we were a full expansion ago. And with more and more roots and snares in the game we should actually have charge/intercept/intervene AND heroic leap to compensate for it all.

    All other classes continue to get more and more tools (that they arguably never needed) while we're still stuck with the worst slow in the game (yes, even worse than curse of exhaustion) while piercing howl STILL isn't baseline making it so that we're once again an expansion behind in not having a root any more.

    We're also forced into choosing between a stun or anti-CC. Bladestorm undoubtedly belongs in the avatar tier. Both provide amazing anti-cc and bladestorm just needs to be brought up in damage to compare. There's literally no reason that bladestorm can't be a single target burst cooldown like it was in WotLK. There's plenty of counters to it for anyone to complain about.

    All other classes have more healing or better defenses. We're stuck with shield wall being the clunkiest and overall worst defensive ability in the game. All of our heals have been slightly buffed individually but are no longer available altogether leaving us with less overall healing than we've had in the past two expansions. We also get DbtS which is a 2 minute cooldown on an abyssmal 8 second duration ability which is still overall worse than hand of protection + divine protection (the 20% damage reduction) or icebound fortitude + conversion/death siphon + lich borne or frenzied regen + feral instincs + barkskin.

    We WILL be defensively exceptionally weak. We WILL be less mobile than all other classes. We will notice this when we'll see every single other class in the game kite us to oblivion while being defensively superior as well. How it's looking now Blizzard is planning to make us damage bots again which a terrible TERRIBLE niche than no one would want.

    If we don't voice our opinions now we'll end up mechanically broken like we were in Cataclysm. They'll keep dumping more and more damage on to us while taking away more and more utility and in the end take away the damage and still not give us utility. If you don't want that to happen then you paint the sky red with QQ.
    Last edited by Flaks; 2012-04-26 at 06:01 PM.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Warrax View Post
    Different opinion doesn't mean someone is trolling...

    As far as Warrior development is in MoP, they change things a lot so maybe you should wait before being too concerned. Also, don't judge the changes based on 4.0 and lvl 85, it doesn't work that way.

    One last thing, Arms still has Sudden Death and don't forget that we're talking about a Beta product so things can be messed up.
    Sorry i havent been responding ive been sleeping but no, he said that Deadly Calm wasnt a nerf and that it was a terrible ability, thats blatant trolling if ive ever seen it.

  19. #39
    Cookie Monster Radux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punctured View Post
    Sorry i havent been responding ive been sleeping but no, he said that Deadly Calm wasnt a nerf and that it was a terrible ability, thats blatant trolling if ive ever seen it.
    Again, opinions are allowed to differ.

    Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it trolling.

  20. #40
    Actually its quite useless to complain about how the mechanics of the Warrior is changing.. will definitely revolutionized.. and as in every patch release: nerfed, buffed, nerfed, buffed, etc..! xD

    just hope it does not happen as it did at the beginning of Cataclysm.. where the changes were clearly approximate in terms of pvp and pve..

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