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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by FYI Im A Pizza View Post
    what id like to see from people who are against this is to think of an alternative where everyone can get health insurance and you would be okay with it
    Why does everyone need insurance? Insurance is part of the problem already, it hides costs and lets doctors and hospitals charge outrageous amounts.
    What would be wrong with people just paying for what they can afford? Or buying health insurance if they want to? People should learn to take care of themselves, with only short periods of help during someone's life for emergencies.

    But I do agree that health costs are outrageous. Insurance propagates this, and hides the costs, but it's certainly not the only cause.
    Health costs are also driven up by the purposeful shortage of doctors (AMA keeps the numbers down so they can keep having massive salaries) and by ridiculous lawsuits paying out way too much. Also, requiring doctor visits to get simple non-narcotic meds puts a massive strain on the system. Why should we go to the doctor just to get an antibiotic? Many other countries allow this, why not the US also? Also, allowing more docs to be trained would allow more competition and lower costs. The problem with the medical industry is that it's nothing like a free market in the US.

  2. #42
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    It is my right to not have health insurance and to have multiple health problems because I smoke, drink, dont excercise, and eat too much. It is also my right to pass all the medical bills on to the state, as I can't hold a job, don't want to pay, or call myself 'conservative.'
    Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Vainglorious View Post
    To sum up how it will work:
    If you had health insurance before, it will cost you more and you'll get less options and ultimately get less healthcare than before.
    If you were young and healthy and skipped insurance before, you have to pay a penalty or buy insurance that you don't need.
    If you had no health insurance before or can qualify as "poor" (including illegals), then you will have more insurance and healthcare than before.
    You forgot some things
    If you've paid your insurance for years you won't get dropped the day you actually need it (cancer for example)
    If you have a child born with a condition and your insurance previously had life time limits you will no longer be doomed to a life of debt.

    Also commenting that young or healthy people don't need insurance is just dead wrong. I had a pilonical cyst that I had to go to the emergency room for, I would have owed $1500 if I didn't have insurance. My friend got in a car crash through no fault of his own (drunk driver hit him) and is in more debt than I can imagine after the hospital bills.

    The only problem with this bill is it does nothing to control insurance costs and our elite have shown they care only about greed which doesn't bode well.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by vindicatorx View Post
    seeing you "have" to have insurance to drive a car and most people are ok with that I don't see why this bothers a lot of people.
    Here's a few:
    1. I'm not required to drive, thus, I don't *have* to have auto insurance.
    2. Even if I do drive, not every state requires auto insurance
    3. Driving on government roads is a privilege... to have that privilege, you must meet certain financial responsibility requirements. I'm fairly certain you can drive on your own property all you like.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptwonline
    This is why the solution is a single payer system with people having the option to buy additional private insurance. Now you are no longer forced to buy anything from a private seller, and instead it's just another gov't service.

    As for the fears over behavior modifications forced by the gov't, just look at the other countries with it and how they don't do anything like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by omglazor View Post
    That's the most logical conclusion to come to. Everyone having healthcare is a Good Thing.
    Yes, everyone having healthcare is a good thing; it's not a good thing to require person B pay for person A's healthcare. For example, I have a gym membership and watch what I eat. Why is it right that I'm paying for someone who smokes 4 packs a day and eats nothing but burgers and fried chicken? I'm not sure if any of you remember when the PPACA (obamacare) was announced, but Obama said that you can keep your insurance if you like it with no cost. Wonder why that changed? Because the government won't be bringing in enough to get PPACA off the ground, not that it's sustainable anyway. They *have* to charge everyone. That aside, what happens if I don't comply with the fees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xeneth View Post
    Personally, I think American's are idiots for not having an "NHS" service like the UK does, if you get injured or become ill here, you dont have to dish out a shitload of money. Also, you wont have these "Insurance" companies trying to find every loop hole available to avoid getting you the medical help that you need. Dont get me wrong, the NHS in the UK needs alot of work, but it makes health care for the less well off an option, rather than the "Oh you dont have insurance, so fuck off and die" mentality that American's have. let Obama do whats needed for the good of the country for god sake / rantover.
    You're right... you'll just have people dieing on waiting lists waiting for the care they need. Whether or not it's "for the good of the country" is fairly irrelevant... we can't afford it and the constitution doesn't allow it. If people like the UK's health care so much, why don't people just move there?


    Ultimately, if the government can force you to buy healthcare, they can force you to buy anything.

  5. #45
    "Obamacare" will save lives, plain and simple. Never again will I have to sew up my own leg because I don't have health insurance (I hope). Republicans sure seem deadset on screwing over poor sick folks like me.

  6. #46
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    Your poor decisions are why we need a mandated health insurance.
    Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries.

  7. #47
    I am Murloc! GreatOak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeneth View Post
    Personally, I think American's are idiots for not having an "NHS" service like the UK does, if you get injured or become ill here, you dont have to dish out a shitload of money. Also, you wont have these "Insurance" companies trying to find every loop hole available to avoid getting you the medical help that you need. Dont get me wrong, the NHS in the UK needs alot of work, but it makes health care for the less well off an option, rather than the "Oh you dont have insurance, so fuck off and die" mentality that American's have. let Obama do whats needed for the good of the country for god sake / rantover.
    Holy shit can you please generalize some more? The reason we dont have healthcare is because of lobbyists, corrupt officials, and a loud minority (30%) that wont have it.

    Americans arent idiots, but you fucking are. Generalizing 340 million people is fun I've heard. Brits are idiots too since you're one, I assume.

    Obama is a horrible President for propping up the banks, feeding the military industrial complex, stripping our civil liberties, and allowing the misguided drug war to ravage south America. Educate yourself.


    [Infracted]
    Last edited by Radux; 2012-04-27 at 03:42 AM.

  8. #48
    High Overlord Kapper117's Avatar
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    Overall I agree with the OP, and all I see are left progressive liberals in this forum anyways, which is the nice name for socialists.
    But b/c we have to "help everyone" no matter the mistakes they made in life, everyone else gets screwed with bs democracy like this or, wait...it's not even democracy anymore it's really borderline socialism.

    The fact of the matter is, statistically speaking if we don't "allow" some people to die one way or another with natural reasons, we will become overcrowded by 2025/2030 such some current problems. Sure industrialized countries aren't completely at fault for this but they still add to the problem. I'm not gunna find you guys the source right now either, I'm sure you forum gurus can figure it our yourself, I got other "work" to do...

  9. #49
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    You dont mind spending trillions going to war, but redistributing the same resources to save your own bloody lives from infections and similar things.... oh hell no...

    Guess i just dont understand said mentality, cause to it seems like pure bs to argue with my doctor about treatment costs lol

  10. #50
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    [QUOTE=FallNAngel;16593021]Here's a few:
    1. I'm not required to drive, thus, I don't *have* to have auto insurance. THIS IS TRUE.
    2. Even if I do drive, not every state requires auto insurance THIS IS NOT, ALL 50 STATES REQUIRE AUTO INSURANCE.
    3. Driving on government roads is a privilege... to have that privilege, you must meet certain financial responsibility requirements. I'm fairly certain you can drive on your own property all you like. THIS IS NOT. YOU ARE REQUIRED TO HAVE INSURANCE, EVEN DRIVING ON YOUR OWN PROPERTY.
    Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by BLCalliente View Post
    Is that the reason the USA has thrived? I'm not so sure.

    I know we aren't thriving anymore.
    We stopped thriving because the government began interfering with the open market.

    Note that I am not necessarily suggesting that government oversight is a bad thing, the problem lies with the divided economic system we currently have. Free market economics only work when truly free . . . i.e. the government stays out and lets the market regulate itself. This is an incredibly harsh system, and promotes "survival of the fittest" . . . either you make it and adapt, or you don't.

    "Socialistic"(note that this term has a negative connotation in America, mostly as a result of incredibly aggressive communistic countries) , aka the big government system, also works, and can work well. The problem is that in order for a truly plutonian society to work the social restrictions would be incredibly harsh, which most people who promote it don't seem to realize. Those who cannot accept the social controls involved would have to be eliminated from said society in whichever way is deemed appropriate, be it via expulsion, incarceration, or extermination. In a way, successful socialism would have to be even more harsh than true capitalism . . . it would just take a bit longer for people to feel the effects.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Riidii View Post
    Where the hell do you get this from?

    I think Justice Kennedy (swing-voter) raised the best question, "We know it is constitutional for Congress to regulate commerce, but is it constitutional for Congress to create commerce?"

    The mandate will be rejected.
    Exactly. The Solicitor General's performance was laughably bad also lol!

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Holy shit can you please generalize some more? The reason we dont have healthcare is because of lobbyists, corrupt officials, and a loud minority (30%) that wont have it.

    Americans arent idiots, but you fucking are. Generalizing 340 million people is fun I've heard. Brits are idiots too since you're one, I assume.

    Obama is a horrible President for propping up the banks, feeding the military industrial complex, stripping our civil liberties, and allowing the misguided drug war to ravage south America. Educate yourself.
    /agree with this guy

    Mod Warning: We don't allow "I agree"-type posts ("This", "QFT", "/agree", etc.), with no other substance. Contribute to the discussion in some way.
    Last edited by Dacien; 2012-04-26 at 10:21 PM.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by FallNAngel View Post
    You're right... you'll just have people dieing on waiting lists waiting for the care they need. Whether or not it's "for the good of the country" is fairly irrelevant... we can't afford it and the constitution doesn't allow it. If people like the UK's health care so much, why don't people just move there?


    Ultimately, if the government can force you to buy healthcare, they can force you to buy anything.
    Everything Rush and Hannity says isn't true. Actually, most of it is a purposeful misrepresentation of facts. People in Canada, England, Europe don't die on waiting lists. Some procedures take longer, but the health results, and costs for the results, are as good or better than US system.
    Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries.

  15. #55
    I am Murloc! GreatOak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syenite View Post
    You dont mind spending trillions going to war, but redistributing the same resources to save your own bloody lives from infections and similar things.... oh hell no...

    Guess i just dont understand said mentality, cause to it seems like pure bs to argue with my doctor about treatment costs lol
    Why doesnt anyone get that most Americans arent this fucking retarded? You honestly believe that we like paying for other countries' defense while losing money? I say we let the world defend themselves so we can fix our own issues, just like every other sane American.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    We stopped thriving because the government began interfering with the open market.

    Note that I am not necessarily suggesting that government oversight is a bad thing, the problem lies with the divided economic system we currently have. Free market economics only work when truly free . . . i.e. the government stays out and lets the market regulate itself. This is an incredibly harsh system, and promotes "survival of the fittest" . . . either you make it and adapt, or you don't.
    Exactly. If you actually look at the stock markets and when the government was printing money (quantitive easing), you can actually see the markets take a dive *EVERY TIME* the government did it. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Prior to their announcement? The market was recovering... slowly, but it was doing it. If we could convince the government to just do *NOTHING*, things could change for the better.

  17. #57
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    What is ironic is that if mandate is struck down, single payer health coverage in the USA will be that much closer to reality. Conservatives may get their wish, and a surprise shortly thereafter.
    Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    Exactly. The Solicitor General's performance was laughably bad also lol!
    Kennedy is a moron. No one is creating commerce, everyone already engages in commerce in the health care sector.

    The conservative bloc of the Supreme Court has also demonstrated they don't really understand this bill.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    We stopped thriving because the government began interfering with the open market.
    Rubbish - the Open Market gave us the GFC, Government interfered to save the world from it.

    The legal system is why you have stopped thriving, every process in the US is seized up with fear of civil suit, or the process of civil suit.

    I know someone who has been trying to get an invention to market for a decade now, and he is still tied up in the legal system after countless hundreds of thousands of dollars.

    Just look at how much money the big players are spending on it.

  20. #60
    Regardless of whether the bill is overturned or not, the U.S.'s health care system needs an overhaul. The people without insurance that are not paying their bills are the ones responsible for higher costs. Compartmentalizing and splintering of services into different offices is a cost-cutting move by smaller practices that ends up costing the consumer more, even if they have insurance, since they have to co-pay at each office a lot of times.

    The government does need to step in and mandate something. I'm not saying the current bill is the solution, but going back to the way things were isn't the solution either.

    edit: Let's not forget people suing doctors and hospitals over things they should be protected from. Shit happens. Free paydays shouldn't.

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