Combat system - Was able to play a bit of beta.

[Deleted]

That explains a lot.
In addition, I guess you and your teammates obviously blew all your cooldowns by spamming so you didn't have any cripples, immobilizes, stuns, chills or knockdowns left.

There are no “teammates”, the discussion was about solo fighting mob(aka normal questing in which case back-pedalling is kind of needed because otherwise you cannot do damage and there is no one else there to damage the mob). Reading all conversation helps you know…

There is an indication of range in GW2. The number underneath the skill button highlights when you're in range.

Thanks, this is what I was sorely missing. I will pay attention to it next beta.

The main thing I was thinking of when I referred to predictable mechanics was the fact that in a trinity based system the mobs will always be on the tank, the dps will always be doing damage, and the healers will always be healing the damage. In that way the way a fight will occur is basically all the same and only gimmicks create different outcomes such as steering Rhyolith or handling Chimearon after he enrages.

But that's the thing though, because there is no one to blame in GW2, you're all responsible for your own survival, and the roles of the player change mid fight depending on encounter variables like the unpredictable nature of aggro all the time. Fights while in a group aren't as predictable as in WoW because mobs don't always go where you want them to.

Well if you are basing predictability on sole existence of the tank, then yes, they are predictable in this regard (although there are some bosses without agro table, which are basically un-tankable, not a huge amount though – otherwise what’s the point in having tanks..) But if you would think that without tank bosses become less predictable you are wrong. Normal group will heard boss how they want. Let me share some old story from WoW about fighting without tank. There were those old days in vanilla when Naxxramus was about to be released. To get into it you had to do this abysmal grind of reputation with Argent Dawn. God it was annoying, double that if you were healer druid at that time. So I went with couple of friends (mage and hunter, no tank) to grind scholomance without tank. We were AQ geared so trash packs went pretty normal as long as we coordinated the CC, and we have downed all bosses in such setup, including optional summon-able with blood and the one with a lot of skeletons and angry bodyguard. Some of them could 4-shot hunter and 2-shot the rest of us(including pet as they have not scaled at all and could not keep agro in the slightest. Usually we sacrificed pig on some mob when we were lacking additional CC) as we were not tanks That’s where you learn about agro bouncing(and in some cases – heavy use of environment like in butcher fight or rattlegore fight) but once you get it right it is just as easy to control boss as having a tank, and just as predictable. You just play in a different way.

Even without DBM fights in WoW are easy. DBM just makes it brain dead. Majority of fights in WoW have vocal ques for abilities and large text to alert raiders.

The hard part in WoW is figuring out how to handle bosses the first time, that's when the game is most fun and tactical. Every time after is a bore in my opinion. Even then, only the top guilds ever get to really experience finding a strategy for bosses, most of us follow the tactics they discovered in live or during the PTR. To me it's a big problem of WoW's design.

Yes I would also prefer if they would emote it on the boss(by doing some special action) rather than going GONNNG and slap big message on the screen. I have also found the most interesting in the fight – devising tactics on our own rather than taking it already chewed up. If you could believe in old times tactic were guarded jealously and not shared around like today different times, different traditions.

However the italicized seems wrong to me. It's hard for me to imagine fights in GW2 to become predictable when there is never one person that will always be taking the damage, one person to restore the damage, and one person to dish it out. Mobs are all over the place, and like you said, chaotic. You can't predict chaos, which is what I'm looking forward to in GW2.

See my post above about fighting without tank. Will GW2 fights be less PUG friendly without holy trinity? Yes they will(agro bouncing is not one men’s work – a moron can easily get party killed ). Will they be any harder to experienced group? No they won’t. Agro bouncing is just as predictable technique as agro gluing, it’s just different. It might be seen as OMG if person is stuck in holy trinity thinking.

Last word is about this bragging commercial rhandric has posted. I will believe it when I will see it in action. So far I can say I am not very impressed by other things AreaNet bragged about and I was able to try out in beta(examples would be scaling of events – which was plainly abysmal – I have posted why in one of my posts on first impressions, Dynamic Events(at least in first 2 maps) were barely reaching level of public quests in WAR when they could do SO MUCH MORE INNOVATIONS. It’s a golden vein of possibilities and they only grazed a handful of dust… I have also put the scope on one of posts, not in this thread though). As a programmer I do not see scripted events to be made different each time. You can add some abilities that are changed on certain setup(this gives longevity), but again only till you know all of them. You can try to mess with RNG on abilities and timers – but usually this will not end up well (Soa fight anyone?). Change tactic? In what way? Intelligent boss would glue to a single member which takes most damage. Would this be unplayable – oh yes, it would. Beta is just too short to try it out decently(because it requires you to do several iterations on the same event with different variables), although all public bosses I have fought were as predictably scripted as it could get.

[Malthurius]

Well if you are basing predictability on sole existence of the tank, then yes, they are predictable in this regard (although there are some bosses without agro table, which are basically un-tankable, not a huge amount though – otherwise what’s the point in having tanks..) But if you would think that without tank bosses become less predictable you are wrong. Normal group will heard boss how they want. Let me share some old story from WoW about fighting without tank. There were those old days in vanilla when Naxxramus was about to be released. To get into it you had to do this abysmal grind of reputation with Argent Dawn. God it was annoying, double that if you were healer druid at that time. So I went with couple of friends (mage and hunter, no tank) to grind scholomance without tank. We were AQ geared so trash packs went pretty normal as long as we coordinated the CC, and we have downed all bosses in such setup, including optional summon-able with blood and the one with a lot of skeletons and angry bodyguard. Some of them could 4-shot hunter and 2-shot the rest of us(including pet as they have not scaled at all and could not keep agro in the slightest. Usually we sacrificed pig on some mob when we were lacking additional CC) as we were not tanks That’s where you learn about agro bouncing(and in some cases – heavy use of environment like in butcher fight or rattlegore fight) but once you get it right it is just as easy to control boss as having a tank, and just as predictable. You just play in a different way.

I wish I could have played WoW when classes were hybridized enough to do such things, but alas I didn't.

Anyway, that example can't be applied to GW2 because threat and aggro doesn't work the same way as in WoW. Mobs will attack the closest enemy, the lightest armored, the least health, and other such variables. And I couldn't find a video of it, but there are videos of ranged mobs kiting players that got too close, mobs dodging attacks, and mobs knocking players back and switching weapons to ranged sets.

See my post above about fighting without tank. Will GW2 fights be less PUG friendly without holy trinity? Yes they will(agro bouncing is not one men’s work – a moron can easily get party killed ). Will they be any harder to experienced group? No they won’t. Agro bouncing is just as predictable technique as agro gluing, it’s just different. It might be seen as OMG if person is stuck in holy trinity thinking.

The fact that everyone is responsible is made up for the fact that any combination of classes can run a dungeon. ArenaNet claimed themselves that they had ran their dungeons with a lot of odd combinations, one that sticks out is a 5 thief group.

But like I said before, aggro bouncing is easier and predictable in WoW because of taunts, aggro dumps, and a clearly defined threat mechanic which doesn't exist in GW2.

[nocturnus]

But like I said before, aggro bouncing is easier and predictable in WoW because of taunts, aggro dumps, and a clearly defined threat mechanic which doesn't exist in GW2.

Which is an extremely outdated mechanic come to think of it. It would be so much cooler if a boss started attacking you because you're at low health, low mana, because everyone else was CC'd, because you're wearing light armour or just because he doesn't like your face

Oh heck, GW2 actually works with these variables!

[Deleted]

Anyway, that example can't be applied to GW2 because threat and aggro doesn't work the same way as in WoW. Mobs will attack the closest enemy, the lightest armored, the least health, and other such variables. And I couldn't find a video of it, but there are videos of ranged mobs kiting players that got too close, mobs dodging attacks, and mobs knocking players back and switching weapons to ranged sets.

If it is the case it will make agro control much easierby for instance changing proximity to the boss. Again it might be different mechanic from boss to boss, which will be fun to discover first time, but later on they will become as predictable as tank and spank. This, again, is the nature of scripted fights, and not just a slopy part on Blizzard or ArenaNet. You cannot achieve anything else without evolving algorythm - and this would be titanic work to create and triple that to make it even remotely balanced. So i would not hope for those for at least 10 years, and that's an optimistic assumption knowing the current state of programming.

But like I said before, aggro bouncing is easier and predictable in WoW because of taunts, aggro dumps, and a clearly defined threat mechanic which doesn't exist in GW2.

In today's WoW you would be completely right. Agro managing tools were giving for all classes. In vanilla our group had only one: hunter's feign death(and if we would use this - its a wipe. Hunter will never be able to climb back in agro list before the rest of the group is slaughtered). In that example i have provided it was completely proper agro bouncing by applying burst damage, kiting and - where possible - environment.
Sure, when you take away holy trinity you can design fights in a different way, so there are more agro switching mechanics, but in the very end it will boil down to what all scripted fights boils down to - predictability.

[Malthurius]

If it is the case it will make agro control much easierby for instance changing proximity to the boss. Again it might be different mechanic from boss to boss, which will be fun to discover first time, but later on they will become as predictable as tank and spank. This, again, is the nature of scripted fights, and not just a slopy part on Blizzard or ArenaNet. You cannot achieve anything else without evolving algorythm - and this would be titanic work to create and triple that to make it even remotely balanced. So i would not hope for those for at least 10 years, and that's an optimistic assumption knowing the current state of programming.


In today's WoW you would be completely right. Agro managing tools were giving for all classes. In vanilla our group had only one: hunter's feign death(and if we would use this - its a wipe. Hunter will never be able to climb back in agro list before the rest of the group is slaughtered). In that example i have provided it was completely proper agro bouncing by applying burst damage, kiting and - where possible - environment.
Sure, when you take away holy trinity you can design fights in a different way, so there are more agro switching mechanics, but in the very end it will boil down to what all scripted fights boils down to - predictability.

Eh, I can't really find room to debate anymore, all I can really say is: let's wait and see until a couple of month after release and see if your assumptions come to light or if mine do.

EDIT: okay, I came up with something to debate against you.

Both WoW and GW2 use a basic algorithm to decide their aggro. However GW2 has a much more complicated algorithm, and that is a fact.

WoW's common algorithm is usually: Does enemy have highest threat? Yes? Then attack him. No? Then check next enemy that is in combat. The rest of what the enemy does is completely based on scripted timers and conditions.

GW2 has a such an algorithm that I couldn't type it to you here, and I honestly had a very difficult time creating the string in MS paint. Eventually I thought that it's possible that GW2 has 2 different enemy AI strings: one for aggro and one for defensive measures. There are so many variables to aggro and mob behavior that its very difficult to predict mob actions, if at all. You'd have to be able to process your surroundings faster than the mob can to figure out what he's going to do, and I guaranteed that you can't.

I'm just speculating though, I don't have the code in front of me, but I just can't fit GW2's aggro system into WoW's threat system. They are vastly different, GW2's algorithm being obviously more complex and therefore less predictable by far.

[Ishu]

Darkwindas, without a tank everyone needs to work to control the mob. With a tank only the tank needs to work to control the mob. It doesn't really matter which one is more predictable than the other, the first one is still better since everyone needs to work for it instead of just one person.