Experienced RP, Undead help?

[Duito]

I play alot of undead toons in the game, I don't really see people RP with them as much I would have hoped so I really don't want to be the "Odd ball" out there or do something that is a challenge (if thats the case)
But how would I start, I know you tell about there human lifes..the age they died/ passed away at and how old they would be now...but what else?

[The Madgod]

In general, I like to focus on how undeath alters my character's perspective and personality. For Acnoctus, at first, he was very depressed due to the fact that he couldn't use the Light anymore, as he lost that with his death. Of course now he fully embraces his undeath and just does whatever he wants to do. Morzath used to be a very cold and calculating undead, without any emotion. I changed him since I didn't really care for him being undead all that much anymore but it's still a valid way to go. Zanicel was forced to be a slave to a necromancer, and when she was free, she was angry at this woman for using her like a slave, and after her fit of rage, she became hard, tough. Rage was a part of it, but so was cool logic and strategy. She had gotten emotion back, but she still retained that coldness of the time she spent emotionally dead after the destruction of the Sunwell.

[The Madgod]

I'm sorry pat but... That's not a guide from one of the best roleplayers. I'm seeing quite a few errors within this section alone. Why are their spoiler tags? It's not a secret and its not really a part of the plot of the game. It's a description of a race, and one that's somewhat misleading in sections. If it's a guide, why does it not provide tips on how to make a character interesting? It sounds more like a cut from a wiki page more than anything.

The peripheral senses of a Forsaken are often dulled. Most experience a clouded sight, a dim sense of smell and touch and an unsatisfactory taste in food. Although most they don’t necessarily need to consume anything to survive, some keep up the habit they practiced in life.

All of their senses are dulled, not just the peripheral or outside ones. They can't really feel internally, they can't taste things as much. No Forsaken needs to eat to continue living, though it is true that some do it out of habit, and for some reason they are able to metabolize flesh to regain health, probably due to the necromantic magics that bind their souls to their undead bodies.

Sleep is also not needed by many, though some indulge in this practice seeking possibly a sense of routine. However, it serves merely as a brief break from consciousness, no longer bringing the restful feel which it brought in life.

Again, sleep isn't even needed, so I'm not sure why your guy isn't using absolutes here. I have no idea if Forsaken can even truly sleep anymore. I doubt it, though they can attempt to do so and, say, meditate for a pretty similar effect.

All in all, Forsaken manage to stitch up their corpses in the struggling attempt to maintain their bodies, either using necromancy, chemistry or surgery. Under no circumstances will a Forsaken find his state a pleasurable one.

bad choice of wording, I would think, but fairly sound. Most forsaken will try and keep their body at a relative level of soundness by repairing it with necromancy or surgery. I'm not sure how alchemy, as that is the proper term in the warcraft universe, can help them save via embalming fluids, but if he's referring to that, then that'd be fine too.

Depending on their status in life, some Forsaken are eaten by jealousy and rage having lost their families, titles, possessions and wealth. Others see their current situation as a second chance, accepting their existence though not relishing it. Of course, there will always be the ones that will lose their minds and end up staring at their own sanity. Those that turn to madness and seem to be the slightest of threats to their own nation are sadly executed by the forces of the Dark Lady. Others may simply seek out a way of performing suicide and ending their existence, carrying a deep self-hatred in their rotting hearts.

This is the part I can't stand the most. He paints a picture of self-loathing for the minds of the Forsaken, and I hate that. It is disgustingly simple, overdone, and terrible storytelling to leave a character in a state of "oh, woe is me". People are diverse, and so are the Forsaken. Why do they all have to be hate-filled or self-loathing? Yes it's the stereotype, but as roleplayers we have to understand that not everyone in a race is the stereotype of that race. To think such extremely limits our ability to create unique and interesting characters, which is what a roleplaying guide should try and do. This paragraph is absolutely terrible for the minds of newcomers to Forsaken roleplaying.

As a race, the Forsaken seem to principally motivated by hatred and rage. This is why they have expanded so aggressively since the death of the Lich King: they seek a purpose in life, as all races do, but they have been robbed of most 'normal' purposes - raising a family or generating wealth are no longer options. As such, their mental torment drives them on to seek purpose by the destruction of their 'enemies'. The enemies who abandoned them and who must now be made to suffer the curse of Undeath, just as they once had to endure such pain.

Wait, why can't they make money? That's probably one of the few things of life that they can still do (see Sedrick Calston for a VERY recent example). And again, he paints the Forsaken as a people with a one track mind, a one track goal, and that is what makes this an abomination to roleplayers. I cannot express how much emotion I have for this, for people who write guides more as an explanation of a stereotype without even calling it as such instead of ways to make your character good while still keeping within the bounds of lore and reasonability.

I don't tear this apart because I hate it (though I do. I really really do.), I do it because I don't want people to be misinformed. I don't want to see Duito here make a character that is based off of stereotypes and the average Forsaken. The greatest gift of a roleplayer is his creativity. Working within stereotypes does not allow for creativity and uniqueness to flourish as much as it can when you don't work wholly within stereotypes, but still be mindful of what ideas are really just unlikely for your character. I'd very much like to know where you got this guide and how this guy is one of the best roleplayers you've ever seen.

[pateuvasiliu]

That's just a brief part of a gigantic guide. I only quoted a few paragraphs which I found relevant. I can clearly recall him being completely against the stereotype.

And we RP with pre-Cata lore. The majority of the community is against the lorefacepalm which was introduced with Cataclysm. A forsaken wanting a pet murloc and wearing a top hat is hardly what I'd call cannon.

Others see their current situation as a second chance, accepting their existence though not relishing it.

He just chose to mention more about the self-loathing ones, and there are many. I don't know enough forsaken that are happy with undeath to consider the need to expand that sentence.

You can PM me for the guide and you can talk to him if you think he is mistaken.

[Nonfictionless]

And we RP with pre-Cata lore.

I'm going to have to stop you there Pat. If a group wishes to do that I don't disagree, but we don't ignore lore we don't like here. And I think as a general rule advising new RPers, or people looking into RPing, using dated information is just wrong.

[The Madgod]

That's just a brief part of a gigantic guide. I only quoted a few paragraphs which I found relevant. I can clearly recall him being completely against the stereotype.

And we RP with pre-Cata lore. The majority of the community is against the lorefacepalm which was introduced with Cataclysm. A forsaken wanting a pet murloc and wearing a top hat is hardly what I'd call cannon.



He just chose to mention more about the self-loathing ones, and there are many. I don't know enough forsaken that are happy with undeath to consider the need to expand that sentence.

You can PM me for the guide and you can talk to him if you think he is mistaken.

If he's against the stereotype, why did he focus on it for a guide on how to create Forsaken characters? Why did he not point out that this is in fact the stereotype? Why did he not give more representation to uniqueness and creativity instead of describing the average as if it was the entirety?

The majority of the VOCAL community doesn't like the lore introduced with Cataclysm. And I'm sorry to break it to you, but if you RP with pre-Cata lore within the current game, you're not doing it right. It's not up to you to decide what is canon and what isn't. That's Blizzard's job. The admittance of that does nothing to prove that this guide should be used. In fact, it argues AGAINST it's use. Whether you like the lore or not doesn't matter. It's the lore. It's canon. Saying you don't use current lore is essentially saying you ignore the lore, and that is probably the WORST thing you could do.

And you haven't answered my question. Who is this guy to write a guide on Forsaken? What are his qualifications? His experience with the lore, both past AND present? What are some examples of his work?

[pateuvasiliu]

How about I delete the post and we leave it at that ?

There's no point arguing with you.

Johnny Awesome and Dumass are also cataclysm characters. Are they cannon too ? Because a blood elf riding a titanic-looking horse and an orc riding a frostwyrm doesn't really make sense to me.

[The Madgod]

There's a big point in arguing with me. There's always a point in arguing with me. If i'm wrong, I expect people to say so. I'm not always right. If you can't prove that I'm wrong, while the opposite is true in that I can prove you and your expert wrong, that's your problem. That's always been how it is, we've had this history before. You've said something, I've corrected it, and other people have corrected it. You've tried to argue it. Several people have countered your argument, and you drop it.

As for Johnny Awesome, Dumass, and Orkus, they are in game and are therefore a part of the lore. It doesn't matter what you or I think about them. They are characters in game that have a part to play in the plot, and therefore are canon. I think that Johnny Awesome is rediculous, Dumass is... a dumbass, and Orkus is... actually I like Orkus, his character's relatively complex for someone who only has a part to play for only 4-5 quests. Still, I realize that it's not my place, and it's not anyone's place except for the writers of the game to decide what is canon and what isn't. It is arrogance to believe otherwise. You have a right to dislike the lore, but ignoring it is just... wrong...

[Istella]

While I wouldn't necessarily call this a 'guide' per say, as it just gives raw information rather than specific tips, I don't really agree with Mad's overall negativity towards it. It gives a lot of good info about the mindset of most Forsaken, and while some of it does verge on the cliché, those stereotypes are there for a reason. As far as I can tell, pat never meant the descriptions he gave as anything more than a generalization of what most of the Forsaken are like- he never presented it as the only way to RP them, even if he still could (and perhaps should) have outright stated that it was one view among many.

I personally feel that it is a much safer route for someone just beginning to RP to stay well within the bounds of lore- and yes, that sometimes means stereotypes- rather than trying to ‘push the envelope’ and develop a fundamentally unique character, such as a happy Forsaken. Once he has become more familiar with RP in general and has a better grasp of what falls into the acceptable ‘grey area’ of RP and what breaks lore completely, then I would encourage him to branch out and try RPing characters that are more of a challenge to make believable.

About pre-cata lore:
Yes, there is some of the lore in Cata that I did not particularly like, but that does not mean that I as an RPer have the choice to cherry-pick what I do and do not use. Blizzard makes the rules and we just try to have our fun while abiding by them.

[Elexo]

Personally I think there is a difference between Val'kyr raised and regular Forsaken.
The Val'kyr raised Forsaken are like the ones we see in Cataclysm; With feelings such as Calston or even fear such as that Forsaken soldier in Gilneas.

I do believe that any Forsaken non Val'kyr raised is indeed either at least somewhat dark or insane.
Bar the exception of course, but a guide can't go over every exception, a guide is supposed to be about the racial stereotype.

Then again I have no evidence to back up my claims, just my own experience and thoughts.

[The Madgod]

At this point that's a difference in philosophy. I personally believe in giving everybody everything up front. A good guide for me gives information on both the stereotype and the outlyers. Just discussing one or the other is not good and I feel that just discussing the stereotype, especially when it isn't discussed that it is in fact the stereotype, is a bad guide. I feel that in terms of a good guide, it discusses the stereotype of a race, pointing out that it is the majority. Then it discusses ways to go outside of that stereotype while stressing that it might be difficult for newer roleplayers and where to stop with going far from that stereotype.

In terms of newer roleplayers, I like to give everything up front, like I said. I would stress to keep things simple, but if people want to try and do something more advanced despite them being novices, I would encourage them to be very mindful that it could not work at this stage in their proficiency, yet still sugges that they go through it. If they succeed, then they've got it. If they don't, failure is one of life's best teachers, and they will still be better off for trying. Learning the basics and creating an interesting, unique character that does not keep in with the general populace of that race aren't mutually exclusive, though it is generally a good idea to work on the former before the latter. Still, as I've said it's a difference in philosophy.

Personally I think there is a difference between Val'kyr raised and regular Forsaken.
The Val'kyr raised Forsaken are like the ones we see in Cataclysm; With feelings such as Calston or even fear such as that Forsaken soldier in Gilneas.

I do believe that any Forsaken non Val'kyr raised is indeed either at least somewhat dark or insane.
Bar the exception of course, but a guide can't go over every exception, a guide is supposed to be about the racial stereotype.

Then again I have no evidence to back up my claims, just my own experience and thoughts.

Calston actually died to the plague and was not reanimated by the Val'kyr. I think that there's not that much difference between traditional Forsaken and Va'kyr. Essentially, they died. Then they were reanimated. It's been known that a good deal of Forsaken are traumatized by becoming undead ever since the start of WoW. The Val'kyr didn't start that. The starting zone is a lot more vocal about it now though, so I can see where you're coming from.

[pateuvasiliu]

Regarding the Pre-Cata lore thing.

I never said we roleplay ingame.

We're not running around Shattered Azeroth pretending it's not there.

[The Madgod]

While I'm glad that you do it like that, since that's really the only way it can be viable, it's a lesser point to what I'm saying in general. There were things missing from the guide you quoted, and that excuse that lore in cataclysm isn't really that good and therefore can be ignored isn't right. If you as a community decide that you don't want to continue forward and to just stay in Wrath of the Lich King, that's fine if it's that specific community's thing, but it doesn't work here.

[Darced]

You can check out my character "Darced the Emberweaver." Perhaps an example will help you Duito; Darced isn't the most complex character, but maybe it'll shed some light on an undead of your own. Good luck, undead ftw!

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...mberweaver-BIO