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  1. #21
    i was considering stagger an automatic effect even if CC. If he doesn't apply your are right it could be only an armor mitigation.

  2. #22
    I am Murloc! Gallahadd's Avatar
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    tbh I think the easiest way would be to lower the health buff to ~20% and raise our armor by about 100%, we'd still be a bit squishier than the other tanks, but not to the stage that a single stun gibs us.

    also ad *can be cast while stunned etc, off GCD* to PB, for fights like first boss is SFK.
    Reading the A song of Ice and Fire series is like playing with an adorable puppy, then someone comes up out of nowhere and shoots the puppy, then punches you in the face

  3. #23
    This new beta patch build looks like a blizzard has read this thread.

    - Spinning Crane Kick no longer costs 2 Chi and costs Mana/Energy instead. - this is sounds really good.

    - Recoil reworked - Your successful normal attacks restore up to 3 energy per second, based on weapon speed. While dual wielding, this energy is halved.

    Is this mean that when i successfully hit a target, with a normal (white) hit, i will restore 3 energy per 1 sec of weapon speed? (for example with a weapon speed 3.6, i will restore 3.6 x 3 = 10.8 energy) Do I understand correctly?
    Last edited by Feelsgood; 2012-05-01 at 07:27 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Feelsgood View Post
    This new beta patch build looks like a blizzard has read this thread.

    - Spinning Crane Kick no longer costs 2 Chi and costs Mana/Energy instead. - this is sounds really good.

    - Recoil reworked - Your successful normal attacks restore up to 3 energy per second, based on weapon speed. While dual wielding, this energy is halved.

    Is this mean that when i successfully hit a target, with a normal (white) hit, i will restore 3 energy per 1 sec of weapon speed? (for example with a weapon speed 3.6, i will restore 3.6 x 3 = 10.8 energy) Do I understand correctly?
    My initial thought was a passive (possibly hidden) "buff" that you gain each time you melee hit (white attacks), and the regen rate (3, 2 or 1?) depends on your weapon speed. However, the "half when dual-wielding" sounds weird; I didn't know the game could calculate halves of Energy?

    I guess we both read it differently, but I can't log in to see.

  5. #25
    How I understand the patch notes, stagger will now be the only way how we are going to receive damage (so you will either dodge, get missed, parry or stagger). Mastery/Blackout kick will now be moving the damage from the instant part to the dot part. Imo good changes overall.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by h4rr0d View Post
    How I understand the patch notes, stagger will now be the only way how we are going to receive damage (so you will either dodge, get missed, parry or stagger). Mastery/Blackout kick will now be moving the damage from the instant part to the dot part. Imo good changes overall.

    EXTREMELY good changes!

    Kinda sad that it's updated two days after I update the guide, but I'm too happy with the new patch to care much. Didn't have plans anyway :P

  7. #27
    I am Murloc! Gallahadd's Avatar
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    very nice changes, I also really like the 30% increased regen from our tank stance. Combine this with the recoil change and I think Brewmaster's energy issues should be gone.

    funniest part about the Mastery Change? I was totally going to suggest that :P having Mastery increase the amount of the damage we stagger, instead of modifying the damage of the Dot.

    the new passive 'Swift Reflexes' sounds awesome, damage on parry? Yes please seems to be a fairly heafty amount as well.

    The Spinning Crane kick change im not to sure about, seems wierd that it no longer costs Chi but does cost Mana, makes me think it may be a bug.
    Reading the A song of Ice and Fire series is like playing with an adorable puppy, then someone comes up out of nowhere and shoots the puppy, then punches you in the face

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Gallahadd View Post
    very nice changes, I also really like the 30% increased regen from our tank stance. Combine this with the recoil change and I think Brewmaster's energy issues should be gone.

    funniest part about the Mastery Change? I was totally going to suggest that :P having Mastery increase the amount of the damage we stagger, instead of modifying the damage of the Dot.

    the new passive 'Swift Reflexes' sounds awesome, damage on parry? Yes please seems to be a fairly heafty amount as well.

    The Spinning Crane kick change im not to sure about, seems wierd that it no longer costs Chi but does cost Mana, makes me think it may be a bug.
    Agreed on Mastery. This makes it a definite high quality stat for us. Hell I agree with everything, Brewmasters are looking very good with this patch.

    As for SCK, it uses either mana or energy, since Mistweavers use it for AoE healing if I recall correctly. The tooltip is weird, thats all.

  9. #29
    I am Murloc! Gallahadd's Avatar
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    I'll be honest... I was TOTALLY not paying attention on SCK, and only read as far as 'no longer cost chi, 2% mana' so I though it would have no cost if you weren't Mistweaver.... not really sure what I was thinking...

    but having it cost energy not Chi? FFFRRRRAAAKKKKK YEAH, so now not only do we have nice Energy regen, but alot of the moves that used to cost chi (SCK, Dampen Harm) no longer do! epic win. So now we have our best AoE threat move, and one of our best CD's off chi, I'd call that a step in the right direction

    One thing which does seem a lliittttllee lame though... with Parry being on our mastery... kinda rules out leather tank gear no? They wouldn't give us a second stat that was parry, if we ALREADY had parry on our gear, this just means if the peice has Mastery + X we can reforge X to dodge, if the peice doesn't have Mastery, we can make it either. Also does anyone know how the parry from Mastery effects DRs?

    REALLY looking forward to monk tanking
    Reading the A song of Ice and Fire series is like playing with an adorable puppy, then someone comes up out of nowhere and shoots the puppy, then punches you in the face

  10. #30
    Patch 15647 make some change that solve some thing and create another asking

    I have tried some tanking and you feel the difference with energy boost, so the chi created and the change about stagger and avoidance mecanism when you tank multitarget

    1-Stagger automatic

    It is a nice mecanism. The direct hit, without any active mitigation is close to an other tank:

    for example,

    -a paladin that take 100K of physical damage will have it reducted to 85K via the passive ability of sanctuary, than approximative the armor will absorb 60% so he will take 34K

    -a brewmaster reduce the same to 80K with the stance buff than the leather armor absorb 30% to 56k. He will than stagger 36% (30 basicly and 6% with mastery in the current try), so takin directly 36k and staggering 20k

    some notes:

    -The difference will increase if stagger accumulate with a prolonged CC for example and can't be purge with purifying brew, can be a trouble in the begining of a fight or a particular phase of prolonged CC whitout healing where the dot can kill the brewmaster

    -When the brewmaster activly tanking (so usually, you didn't have fight where you always CC), thing appear very differently.

    -Blackout kick give you an high buff to the parry and to the Stagger effect (You pass the 50% avoidance and you stagger 56% of damage)

    -If you can use purifying brew regulary, you take many less damage

    -avoidance is high so you are not hit often and stagger doesn't increase a lot in fact.

    -Elusive brew offer you a 50% dodge increase and with blackout kick 30% parry buff you are beyond 100% avoidance (also without thinking about gems or reforging), so it is potentialy a 10s physical invulnerability where your stagger will reset.


    I believe the idea was the brewmaster taking more damage than the other tank, but less oftenly with higher avoidance. Also this higher damage incoming was staggering so to hinder spike damage and delayed with a DOT. But currently the timer of the DOT is peharps too short, and the purifying brew CD ability also too short too. It's unlikely that stagger will increase too much with a so high avoidance and a purge spell with a 6s cd.

    Peharps make the timer of the DOT longer, with a longer CD to the purifying brew could be done.

    Also guards is an enjoyable spell, but so what will be its purpose? I think its something that you will want to us to absorb this stagger dot when it increase before you can use again purifying brew. Peharps guard must be scaling a bit like the heal of deathstrike for the DK, with a basic minimal mount based for example with brewmaster stamina, and a potential increase with a recent higher damage or stagger damage. (Just an idea)


    For the rest the energy regen faster and you use more chi, making tiger palm, guards, zen sphere used regulary, you don't only maintain blackout kick, dizzying haze and purifying brew, that is nice.

  11. #31
    I am Murloc! Gallahadd's Avatar
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    wait so is Stagger 100% chance now? I know they changed a bit of how the mechanics worked, but didn't think they'd changed it that much
    Reading the A song of Ice and Fire series is like playing with an adorable puppy, then someone comes up out of nowhere and shoots the puppy, then punches you in the face

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Gallahadd View Post
    wait so is Stagger 100% chance now? I know they changed a bit of how the mechanics worked, but didn't think they'd changed it that much
    Yes it is 100% (and i expect 100% even if you are CC bu i havn't veirified)

    The stagger part is 30% , you take 70% directly. I think mastery effect must be passive too so with a 85 monk the mastery add 6% for a 36% stagger part.

    But BOK improve the stagger part by 20% for 6s (and also parry by 30% for 6s)


    All in all i think designer try something different but the number/CD will be tuned. (In my opinion, passive avoidance -dodge, parry- are too much, the DOT of stagger should be longer (20-30s), purifying brew longer CD (15-20s), guards shorter CD and different scaling to manage damage control.

    But as the patch before , the feeling is good.

  13. #33
    Pandaren Monk GeordieMagpie's Avatar
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    Just a question, sir, Does the Brewmaster feel like the DK, with the energy and Chi (Dk having runes and runic power),also, thank you for spending your time on this useful post.

    Also, for a foreigner, your english is pretty good :P.
    Howay the lads!

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Bobsagget View Post
    Just a question, sir, Does the Brewmaster feel like the DK, with the energy and Chi (Dk having runes and runic power),also, thank you for spending your time on this useful post.

    Also, for a foreigner, your english is pretty good :P.
    DK's & Monks feel fairly different from one another. but they're both fairly solid on beta right now. try em out
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    [12:07:45] <+Radux> i think Bibi should post a super passive agressive message in there. like "OH NO LOVE FOR BIBI. I SEE HOW IT IS. YOU'RE WELCOME FOR CREATING THE SITE. CARRY ON."

    OH NO LOVE FOR BIBI. I SEE HOW IT IS. YOU'RE WELCOME FOR CREATING THE SITE. CARRY ON.

  15. #35
    I am Murloc! Gallahadd's Avatar
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    Gotta say that's an awesome change, and goes a long way to addressing monks squishieness, without resorting to just buffing armor. Bravo Blizz bravo :P.

    All we need to test not if is stagger works while CC'd which tbh should be pretty easy :P find any class with a stun (which is to say, pretty much ANY melee) and stun> attack> profit! .

    Also how does it all stack up? if we have 30% stagger base, Mastery adds 6% more(base), plus Shuffle for 20% from BoK (am I the only one that keeps thinking that's Blessing of Kings?) meaning potentially 56% staggered is the BASE we can expect? Also what kind of uptime are you seeing for shuffle?
    Reading the A song of Ice and Fire series is like playing with an adorable puppy, then someone comes up out of nowhere and shoots the puppy, then punches you in the face

  16. #36
    Stood in the Fire Yorgl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallahadd View Post
    Also how does it all stack up? if we have 30% stagger base, Mastery adds 6% more(base), plus Shuffle for 20% from BoK (am I the only one that keeps thinking that's Blessing of Kings?) meaning potentially 56% staggered is the BASE we can expect? Also what kind of uptime are you seeing for shuffle?
    From what I understand, yes it's what we can expect.

    Regarding Shuffle uptime, I don't know the exact answer but I assume this might depend on how often we'd better use PB (on CD or not). Also, it's worth noting that Shuffle duration can be extended up to 12 sec on the current build. You can see it here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF4I24c5XzU (Sorry it's french as I did it for my blog, but you can easily see the buff bar if you fullscreen / HD ^^)
    But, and I don't know if it's intendend, if you use BOK when Shuffle is above 6 sec, its duration isn't changed so basically you'd be wasting 2 Chi.


    Edit : I think we might see a change on avoidance from Shuffle and/or Elusive Brew pretty soon because for now, we can be over 80% avoidance non submitted to DRs plus the avoidance from gear pretty often (ie 22% uptime, if managed correctly). That can't be right, can it ?
    Last edited by Yorgl; 2012-05-03 at 07:07 AM.

  17. #37
    I agree with Yorgl. (that can't be right)

    For now what i fell in the concept:

    base stagger mecanic allow you just to remove spike damage: where a tank will take 34k direct damage (because of his armor) you will take 34-36k (depend on the mastery stagger bonus)

    But the rest is not an absorbed damage, you still take 20k more delayed in few second (10s, or 12s if that changed)

    Also when you activly tank and than buff the stagger , you begin to take less, but stagger more (you take 25k directly, you stagger 31k)

    So spiky damage is removed but brewmaster still take more, and potentialy a lot more if nothing is done in 10s or prolonged CC for example.

    To manage this, than the brewmaster can have:

    -more avoidance (parry, dodge) : you are hit less often so the overall damage is not more than another tank. Currently, like Yorgl say, it seems a bit too much however, and also with too much avoidance stagger would not grow up particulary in single target tanking.

    -guards: with a damage shield you can absorb excess damage, like blood shield for DK, since you can't block.

    -Purifying brew: you erase stagger damage so here you really have avoided a potential damage.

    Currently, 100% stagger mecanic seems have removed spiky damage but than with all its other tool Brewmaster seems not to be able to be hit so often that the stagger wil grow too much.
    Also, for player that have eventualy try somme raid, does stagger able to grow up? (They said that it can have light, medium, high level, is it the case?)


    An another mecanism with stagger , blackout kick effect can be also to add a duration effect of stagger. the idea would that the brewmaster try to delayed its DOT damage between purifying brew (that will be in longer CD).

    I still in the idea that currently stagger doesn't work as intended: something that grow up, that the brewmaster manage to contain (by using guards and it will be an idea also to increase the duration of stagger -so diminish the damage by second-) before to purify it. (but i can be wrong with the concept)

    It is understandable that all in all it difficult to tune since with stagger mecanic, brewmaster has to take more potential damage and a correct one when you use accordingly its tool (guards, purifying brew), because it a mecanic about damage already take and not avoided like other tank (not sur to be clear in my sentence). Also you have to manage that this "more" potential damage not too spiky otherwise you kill the brewmaster too fast in raid situation or multitarget tanking. Something will be made i think about the stagger duration/stacking, guards gameplay and purifying brew.

    And also if that doesn"t work you can have back a buff of the armor for passive mitigation and stagger as an overall avoidance effect like block, just here to have less damage over the time. But i believe that many player that like brewmaster concept like the current stagger concept and this new approach: managing a DOT and would be disapointed to come back with only an armor buff.
    Last edited by Slyden; 2012-05-03 at 11:01 AM.

  18. #38
    Stood in the Fire Yorgl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slyden View Post
    I agree with Yorgl. (that can't be right)

    [...]

    Also, for player that have eventualy try somme raid, does stagger able to grow up? (They said that it can have light, medium, high level, is it the case?)
    Why is that, do we know each other ? (Sorry, your nick doesn't ring any bell. :-/ )

    Regarding your question, yes, there are three "levels" of Stagger as you can see here : http://mop.wowhead.com/search?q=stagger#spells
    I heard that light = 0-8k / moderate = 8k-15k / heavy = 15k+. However, I didn't have a chance to test it myself ; I tried going solo on a trash on Firelands, but even when he took 80% of my HP it was still low (but I didn't have Shufflle activated) and as it was late, I didn't have the courage to find a healer willing to come with me to test.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Yorgl View Post
    Why is that, do we know each other ? (Sorry, your nick doesn't ring any bell. :-/ )

    Regarding your question, yes, there are three "levels" of Stagger as you can see here : http://mop.wowhead.com/search?q=stagger#spells
    I heard that light = 0-8k / moderate = 8k-15k / heavy = 15k+. However, I didn't have a chance to test it myself ; I tried going solo on a trash on Firelands, but even when he took 80% of my HP it was still low (but I didn't have Shufflle activated) and as it was late, I didn't have the courage to find a healer willing to come with me to test.
    No we don't know each other, i was not aware that i could write something that could mean that but that's not my natural langage so sorry if i make a sentence looking too much familiar. I know your brewmaster site and i was going to your direction when you affirmate/ask that parry/dodge current capacity were too high in the post before mine. (if i have correctly read)

    Your answer about stagger goes in same feeling i have (but should need more feedback in different situation); currently stagger doesn't easely stack, and medium high level are not easely reached. (and not at all in my concern). And that even in situation where the brewmaster health can becomes low.

    Since blizzard implemented a "level" of stagger i think it is in the intent of the designer to have stagger stacking more. Improve the DOT duration, and the time between tick (30s duration reset with each stagger hit , 3s between each tick for example could change thing)

  20. #40
    Stood in the Fire Yorgl's Avatar
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    Oh ok, I just got it : the "That can't be right" was refering to our high avoidance capacity.
    Sorry about that.

    Note about the stagger marker that I think the difference between light (green) and moderate (yellow) is hard to tell. I'd rather have blue for light, then having this possibilities :


    instead of :


    Much easier to read if you ask me.

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