Do you think Rogues will be more fun to play in MoP?

[Verain]

I would actually say that playing sub (on live, and likely in mop) properly is complex, and for the reasons you listed. I would call it hard, by the standards of wow rotations.

As much as I dislike the SangV change, I don't think that it is directly comparable. Currently, sub tries very hard to refresh with minimal clipping- you get within a couple seconds of recup going away and sure, fine, refresh it because you get the 32 second one- rupture won't feel like this though. You'll want a five point rupture every time the existing rupture goes away, like RIGHT then. Since HAT is still a thing, this will require proper play to land that rupture. Of course this would also be true of rupture just did enough damage to be worth casting, like they should do instead of tying our hands like this, but the point I'm making is- this mechanic isn't bad like Hunger for Blood was bad. Hunger you could put up at any time, had a long duration, felt like a chore. A bad rogue could just press it whenever nothing else was going on, a good rogue didn't gain much by landing it just at expiry. With a powerful rupture, or with the current design Blizzard has of rupture falling off gimping us, you'll have many opportunities to land that clutch dot correctly.

[Backstabber]

The funny thing is in the latest stats we finally beat out a class in popularity. Warlocks dropped just beneath us in active numbers. But part of the problem is people don't take time to learn a class anymore. If they can't "Master" it within a few weeks the discard it. I've been playing a Rogue since '07 and I almost can't play anything else. It's too engrained in me to play a Rogue. Assassination isn't bad, but like previous people have said the energy pooling can get annoying. Combat is the most boring to me, but so were Arcane Mages and people still played them back in the day because of the numbers. Bottom line is Rogues put out stellar DPS if played right. It ultimately comes down to personal preference, but a Rogue's massive single target DPS on a boss can be clutch. I wouldn't count us out.

[Rogaeu]

-So the entire rogue community is hive-minded? We all think alike? I really don't like when people talk about the community like if we were a hive and all thought the same. "WoW community sucks because they wanted X, but now they wanted Y". That's one of the most ridiculous arguments ever and it pops up every single day in a forum. Some people are satisfied with how combat works. I don't because I don't like sinister strike. Easy uh?

don't be a nitpicker. you know what my statement was meant to express. i didn't say everybody thinks exactly the same way. there will always be exceptions but the majority hardly will ever be happy with their class. some don't like 70% passive damage, some dont like finishers hitting for so low, some don't like low energy regen, some don't like KS killing you instead of the boss, some don't like this and that.

i also think it's easy to say what blizzard has messed up with their new talents etc. but it's hard to tell how they should make it better.
pls keep in mind:
- blizzard doesn't want much burst anymore (hard to balance in pvp)
- rogue has to be unique, so no CP on the rogue like chi works with monchs
- no overcomplicate mechanics nor mechanics that have already been used for other classes
- "rogueish" abilities
....

because otherwise there will again be complains.

[Sendai]

don't be a nitpicker. you know what my statement was meant to express. i didn't say everybody thinks exactly the same way. there will always be exceptions but the majority hardly will ever be happy with their class. some don't like 70% passive damage, some dont like finishers hitting for so low, some don't like low energy regen, some don't like KS killing you instead of the boss, some don't like this and that.

i also think it's easy to say what blizzard has messed up with their new talents etc. but it's hard to tell how they should make it better.
pls keep in mind:
- blizzard doesn't want much burst anymore (hard to balance in pvp)
- rogue has to be unique, so no CP on the rogue like chi works with monchs
- no overcomplicate mechanics nor mechanics that have already been used for other classes
- "rogueish" abilities
....

because otherwise there will again be complains.

I don't like this logic still.
"but the majority hardly will ever be happy with their class."

Then why do they play it? It must be the other way around, the majority is happy with their class that's why they stay with it. You can't take forum opinions because people are most likely to express a negative thought than a positive one and this is Marketing 101.

[Maelstrom51]

I don't like this logic still.
"but the majority hardly will ever be happy with their class."

Then why do they play it? It must be the other way around, the majority is happy with their class that's why they stay with it. You can't take forum opinions because people are most likely to express a negative thought than a positive one and this is Marketing 101.

The thing is, rogues are one of the least played classes despite consistently being one of the best classes in the game (aside from the first tiers of expansions). My guess is that most people don't find them fun to play.

[Zhinkis]

Seeing how Sub seems to be getting simplified..... meh......

Unless combat gets a bit less spammy and assa gets some more things to do and less energy pooling.

[wow]

I would actually say that playing sub (on live, and likely in mop) properly is complex, and for the reasons you listed. I would call it hard, by the standards of wow rotations.

As much as I dislike the SangV change, I don't think that it is directly comparable. Currently, sub tries very hard to refresh with minimal clipping- you get within a couple seconds of recup going away and sure, fine, refresh it because you get the 32 second one- rupture won't feel like this though. You'll want a five point rupture every time the existing rupture goes away, like RIGHT then. Since HAT is still a thing, this will require proper play to land that rupture. Of course this would also be true of rupture just did enough damage to be worth casting, like they should do instead of tying our hands like this, but the point I'm making is- this mechanic isn't bad like Hunger for Blood was bad. Hunger you could put up at any time, had a long duration, felt like a chore. A bad rogue could just press it whenever nothing else was going on, a good rogue didn't gain much by landing it just at expiry. With a powerful rupture, or with the current design Blizzard has of rupture falling off gimping us, you'll have many opportunities to land that clutch dot correctly.

My problem is this gimps target switching bad if redirect isn't up. Now yes you could take Versatility for every fight but then you give up Anticipation. But either way it will make sub useless on adds that need to die fast something its the best rogue spec for on live. Another problem I have with all our dmg being tied to it is "more powerful spell active." If it was just a good dot getting this up little later would be so bad but when you're sitting at 5cp's and rupture has 3 sec left and you can't replace it so you end up put it back up 5secs later you lose 25% dmg every time it happens is very annoying. But you could say just wait but remember you have Versatility because sub is gimpped on switching.

[Sendai]

The thing is, rogues are one of the least played classes despite consistently being one of the best classes in the game (aside from the first tiers of expansions). My guess is that most people don't find them fun to play.

Some classes have always been historically underplayed (Rogue, Warlock, Druid) and some, overplayed (paladin, warrior). While it can evolve with time (I believe druid is much higher now), it must be something else than just fun. They are probably very intimidating classes for beginners.

[Maelstrom51]

Some classes have always been historically underplayed (Rogue, Warlock, Druid) and some, overplayed (paladin, warrior). While it can evolve with time (I believe druid is much higher now), it must be something else than just fun. They are probably very intimidating classes for beginners.

I doubt its that rogues are intimidating to play since we have two of the easiest specs in the game. Also there's the being 'invisible' factor that probably draws in a lot of new players.

[Earenbane]

rogues are super fun to play, its just not a lot of people can play them well, and face it, if your doing shit damage you automatically think that class is worse than your main.

[Eazy]

Fun to play? Of course.
Being good in PvP/PvE? We will see...

[dsk792]

can you please give me an intro on how are rogues doing at beta pvp right now ? my main focus is bgs. been off the wow for a while but planning on returning so thats why im really not into some stuffs

[Tokas]

can you please give me an intro on how are rogues doing at beta pvp right now ? my main focus is bgs. been off the wow for a while but planning on returning so thats why im really not into some stuffs

check swifty's channel on youtube, he has one video about rogues pvp on beta. (yeah yeah he sucks at other classes other than warrior, but it's still better than zero info)

[retronym]

check swifty's channel on youtube, he has one video about rogues pvp on beta. (yeah yeah he sucks at other classes other than warrior, but it's still better than zero info)

I saw that video, 90% of what he showed was stuff we already have lol. "Glyph of Gouge OMG OP!!!". Actually it kinds of highlights how little change we've had, most of the change has centred around gutting Subtletly in PvP.

[jhr13]

I think they're fun now but i'm hoping it will improve

[shadowboy]

Shadow blades = fun. It's very respectable burst for combat, ESPECIALLY when paired with adrenaline rush and troll racial. 44% attack speed increase dealing shadow damage + a finisher every 3rd global = pretty crazy burst.

[joeyray]

many things have changed since vanilla but rogues ain't one of them ;p and i'm not complaining, just saying, i love my rogue. been playing the class as my main since launch and one thing i'd never say about rogues is that their 'boring'.

[Sendai]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...53?page=22#428

We want the bottom row of talents to be exciting

Things like redirect without a CD or a throw that gives CP are not exactly exciting in my opinion...

[Verain]

Some classes have always been historically underplayed (Rogue, Warlock, Druid) and some, overplayed (paladin, warrior). While it can evolve with time (I believe druid is much higher now), it must be something else than just fun.

Actually, rogue was not underplayed in vanilla- we actually had a dash of over-representation.

Druids and locks were underplayed in vanilla. A big part of the druids being underplayed was exactly how hybrid they were back then- back when that meant something totally different. Back in vanilla, a feral druid could actually throw a couple good heals, a balance druid could throw a lot more, and all druids could go bear and tank to a degree. This meant that the spec you chose on your druid didn't make you as good as it probably needed to at the actual spec you chose. Only resto was really up there, and even then they did a lot of funny mechanics so that innervate was better to cast on priests. So you were like a healer's meta-healer in raids, and in other situations you had a lot of talent points to fight with to get much else going on. Plus balance went from "noble master of nature" to "retardo-chicken" in vanilla, which caused me to shelf my druid from a serious point of view.

Locks have always had an issue of kit. Unlike a mage, who fits SEVERAL iconic standpoints (and there's plenty of players who just always play the wizard), the lock is a very specific form of fallen wizard. He's not a necromancer or an enchanter, concepts that you find pretty often in fiction amongst the evil wizard types, no one in this game has meaningful illusions (mages do, but obviously they don't really fool people), and so instead you find an explicit kind of pact with demons here, sort of a hell-caster. Add to that terrible craftsmanship in vanilla "he's uh, a 'debuffer'... OK ON TO WARRIORS", and you can explain a lot of their historical lack of play. Even then, they were above rogues until legendaries came out.


In my guild, it's pretty rare to find someone who wants to play a rogue. Rogues simply lack the raw power the other classes do. I don't mean that in the sense that "a rogue can't gank/arena/bg/raid", because obviously rogues can do all of those things. But when we are missing a clutch person, I can't tank or heal. When something needs a special niche job, it is almost always handed to a ranged (twin dragons being an amazing exception). If the fight does some crazy thing, it's often not the rogue's inflexible rotation and "till-death-do-you-part" fight mechanics that comes up to shine. The thing we have been told we are best at (and we generally are) is sticking on a single target without having to run out of melee range, until the fight is over in pve, and doing cooldown-limited burst with normally exactly one playable spec in pvp. The single target pve thing is what EVERYONE secretly thinks that THEIR character should be best at, and Blizzard is reluctant to burst their bubble, meaning that rogues end up being thought of as a selfish class- we've locked ourself into the role that everyone believes that THEY should get. Who do we leave single target on Zon'ozz? The answer is normally the rogue, and a lot of players don't like that.

So I think a lot of that goes into why the class has been unpopular starting in about BC. We had a very clear role / job in most of the game, and when hybrids got put to within 5% of us single target sustained (and often much more, based on fight mechanics), we fell behind quite quickly. Blizzard has been making rather world-shaking rogue buffs to address this. For instance, Blade Flurry is the best at its job, and that's a situation that happens in fights. Previously, that was one of many things that warriors were top at, along with "fights that do aoe damage", "fights with burst aoe phases", "able to respec tank", "need to be mobile", etc. There's other changes in MoP as well that should help. But being stuck to melee (which everyone is full on), and only bringing dps, means that Blizzard has to really fight to keep rogues desired.

[Nitsuj]

Just would like to pop in here and add that while I know rogue damage is low in beta (CP builders doing 10% more that auto attack) GC has said that they haven't even attempted to make a pass at numbers yet. I don't have many complaints so far on rotation seeing as I mainly just pvp on my rogue and actually prefer a simple rotation so I can actually look up in pvp and use my other cool skills that dont do damage.