Humanity in animals

[Deleted]

its a common trait for an animal, we have been around for so little time that i dont know wwhat you are talking about, everything is related to ous? lol what, just because we are intelligent doesnt mean all other animals can't have similar traits as ous, one could argue that it is ous who have animal like behavior (while still having much more developed brains and bodies) hench the common traits to other mammals.

we fight territorial wars like animals

we have to a lesser degree basic instincts just like other animals (reproduce, defend and attack etc)

ofc we have moved more away from our ancestors the homo sapiens etc and have moved forward in evolution and became more civilised peoples BUT if you look at the modern world today, you can see we are not really so much different then we where, we have acquired much more technology and such, so we have changed, but we have just shifted it to something else, like we hunted "witches" in the 15-17th century, now we have a gun under the pillow behind a door with 10locks on it, in fear of something bad will happen.

When you really think about it, we're not even super special/awesome/amazing for building civilization. You could argue that insects like termites and ants and whatnot have built thriving societies and cities. Sure they're nothing like our's, but other 'civilizations' don't have to look anything like our own to be legitimate. I mean sure they lack all evidence of higher intelligence beyond their instincts to survive and grow, but they have done a lot of what we always pat ourselves on the back for. Its something that just came to me now really, I think its something interesting to think about.

exactly the point, we are aware of ourself and our work, thats why we can sit down have a drink and say goodjob, while a termite build astonishing hives just out of instinct

---------- Post added 2012-04-30 at 05:19 AM ----------

[Alixie]

I watched a documentary called The Human Spark. Goes on to explain what makes humans people like being able to form a language, understand language, recognizing other's outside yourself, and understanding time. A dog for example, wont wonder what his neighbor, Fido 5 blocks away thinks about the enslavement of dogkind.

I dont remember a whole lot of the movie, but it was nice exploring why were are very different than any other animal on the planet. I dont understand when people personify animals and claim they are THIS closely like us in many ways.

[Muffinator]

Humans by and large have abandoned instinct in favour of "logic". AKA thinking about a situation before acting.

Many many species have survived to this day because they merely act on instinct.

Animals are honest and innocent, they don't premeditate murdering because it makes them feel good or they're angry. If animals kill it's either for food or to ensure survival for their children.

When animals love they show it, they don't hide it.

Part of the reason why I'm more upset about cases of animal cruelty then stories about human beings, is because they're innocent. They don't do anything at all simply to spite or hurt others, they just live, and love, and die by our side. Specifically domestic animals.

We are all still animals on the inside, we just pretend we don't notice. Every human being has the capacity within them for terrible, brutal instinctual animal aggression and violence, without thinking, we just choose not to let it out.

[Deleted]

Humans are animals, so yes other animals share similar traits.

[Deleted]

Animals don't show greed. They don't deceive or betray. They don't lust for power or show compassion. They have no morality.

I have to ask - If you see humanity in that which does not exhibit these traits... what the hell do you define humanity as?

Actually they have morality. In fact my dog has better morals than me:P He has been taught that stealing is wrong, not through punishment or hitting him (I've never done that) but the few times he tried when he was younger, being unhappy with him and showing it. Now he just doesn't steal, even when he is alone in the room and there's something he would really like on the table, he leaves it alone and when I come back, asks or begs for it instead.

He also never harms other animals, although no one has taught him that. He barks at them, plays with them, even chases them but he never attacks them or harms them.

[Deleted]

Humans don't have a single trait that isn't shared with our fellow mammal counter-parts. Granted, it's often in a much simpler sense because our intellect has developed to be vastly superior, but that doesn't subtract from the fact that animals have emotions just the same as we do, yet they express them differently.

The notion that animals are simply just machines that act out of instinct is antiquated and obsolete, and is generally only clung to by people who've learned very little about the nature of animal behavior.

I don't know if you see 'humanity' in their eyes, because to me, humanity is just a word with no real meaning, when applied to a range of emotions. However, if you look into an animals eyes and see a kinship with a conscious entity looking back at you, thinking it's own (though simplified) thoughts, you're absolutely right.

There's been some very interesting studies on 'Theory of mind' in animals which is basically the ability to understand that other creatures not only have a mind of their own, but their wishes might actually contradict yours and it seems that so far, primates, and to a slightly lesser extent dogs, are able to understand this concept. As comparison, it occurs in humans around the age of 2 to 3.

[Gestopft]

I too believe some animals out there are much more intelligent then we give them credit for, for example I hate sitting through those ASPCA commercials and such that show animal abuse, I will actively mute or turn the channel because to me it's just saddening.

I find it slightly unnerving that the abused animal commercials get to me way more than the starving children commercials.

[Deleted]

Actually they have morality. In fact my dog has better morals than me:P He has been taught that stealing is wrong, not through punishment or hitting him (I've never done that) but the few times he tried when he was younger, being unhappy with him and showing it. Now he just doesn't steal, even when he is alone in the room and there's something he would really like on the table, he leaves it alone and when I come back, asks or begs for it instead.

We should, however, be careful when inferring our projection of right an wrong onto animals. I can assure you that your dog doesn't understand that 'I can't take the stuff I want off the table because it's generally wrong to take things that aren't yours', but instead 'I can't take the stuff I want, because my pack leader will be displeased with me and I'll feel bad'. But that in itself isn't really disappointing as it's a huge sign of intellect to be able to figure out what another creature not only wants, but expects you to do, and then actually act on it. Dogs are more intelligent than we give them credit for, but they don't share human social conventions

[TheBeardedOne]

Actually they have morality. In fact my dog has better morals than me:P He has been taught that stealing is wrong, not through punishment or hitting him (I've never done that) but the few times he tried when he was younger, being unhappy with him and showing it. Now he just doesn't steal, even when he is alone in the room and there's something he would really like on the table, he leaves it alone and when I come back, asks or begs for it instead.

He also never harms other animals, although no one has taught him that. He barks at them, plays with them, even chases them but he never attacks them or harms them.

Put a bowl of dog food on that table and leave it in there all day with it and i doubt the dog won't eat it. Also a dog doesn't have any morals what so ever. What moral decisions have dogs ever made, none, ever. This thread seems to contain the ideas that cats and dogs are somehow superior to the rest of the animals because their loyal or whatever. I have never ever got the attachment people have to pets to the point where they start to think their animals have morals or some human qualities(derived from higher intelligence etc..). I find it staggering what people do for their pets and how much they put said animals over other humans, just imagine what could be done to help the world with all the food and money we give/spend on pets where put to a better use.

[Deleted]

Put a bowl of dog food on that table and leave it in there all day with it and i doubt the dog won't eat it. Also a dog doesn't have any morals what so ever. What moral decisions have dogs ever made, none, ever. This thread seems to contain the ideas that cats and dogs are somehow superior to the rest of the animals because their loyal or whatever. I have never ever got the attachment people have to pets to the point where they start to think their animals have morals or some human qualities(derived from higher intelligence etc..). I find it staggering what people do for their pets and how much they put said animals over other humans, just imagine what could be done to help the world with all the food and money we give/spend on pets where put to a better use.

Actually, I have done that. I put a doggy treat on the floor but forgot to tell him that he can eat it, then went to school. When I got back, it was still there and after he had greeted me, he started staring at the treat with really sad eyes and tried to get my attention. When I said he could have it, he ran to it and it was gone in a few bites. Anyway, some animals are pretty intelligent. Dogs have said to be on the same level with a 3 year old child.

Oh and what might that better use for be? If you're suggesting developing a sterility virus for Africa or holding them in cages, it's inhuman and I think they should make their own mistakes and come out of it. Just throwing food and money at them only makes the problem go worse, they would still multiply like rabbits and then starve. Nothing anyone can do if they choose to be this way.

[Deleted]

Put a bowl of dog food on that table and leave it in there all day with it and i doubt the dog won't eat it. Also a dog doesn't have any morals what so ever. What moral decisions have dogs ever made, none, ever. This thread seems to contain the ideas that cats and dogs are somehow superior to the rest of the animals because their loyal or whatever. I have never ever got the attachment people have to pets to the point where they start to think their animals have morals or some human qualities(derived from higher intelligence etc..). I find it staggering what people do for their pets and how much they put said animals over other humans, just imagine what could be done to help the world with all the food and money we give/spend on pets where put to a better use.

You raise a good point at the end, definitely. But how much of the money people spent on pets would really end up getting to those in need? A negligable amount, I suspect. Instead of a Dog, food, etc, there wouldn't be a rash of charity donations but rather, I suspect, a lot of new flatscreen TVs.

Further, leave a child alone all day with no-one watching them with a bowl of food on the table and they would eat it. Bit of a bad analogy. I don't know about Dogs or Cats being superior, but remember we have domesticated them and interact with them more than other animals. Its only natural that a connection would develop between an owner and the pet. It seems you don't really get the empathy that passes between owners and pets from what you say.

As a dog owner, I wouldn't ascribe morals to my dog, but I certainly see personality traits and behaviour unique to this dog to dogs I've had before. I don't really think that you can deny animals (Of many types, this extends to whales, pigs, monkeys etc) exhibit emotions such as fear, inquisitiveness, anger etc. I could even swear my cat sulks at me when I don't feed her on time. Although it's hard to tell anything with cats.

[Deleted]

Put a bowl of dog food on that table and leave it in there all day with it and i doubt the dog won't eat it. Also a dog doesn't have any morals what so ever. What moral decisions have dogs ever made, none, ever. This thread seems to contain the ideas that cats and dogs are somehow superior to the rest of the animals because their loyal or whatever. I have never ever got the attachment people have to pets to the point where they start to think their animals have morals or some human qualities(derived from higher intelligence etc..). I find it staggering what people do for their pets and how much they put said animals over other humans, just imagine what could be done to help the world with all the food and money we give/spend on pets where put to a better use.

Who advocates that dogs or cats are superior to other animals? They're most certainly not, but culturally, those are the animals we keep as pets and form bonds with. Clearly, animals don't follow human social conventions such as morals, but they're far from robots that are unable to show affection and devotion. And clearly, people who love animals and take one in, will do so in order to make the animal part of the family and love it as such, and that shouldn't be knocked. You're in no position to tell other people what they can, or cannot have as the object of their affection. In fact, it's proven to reduce stress levels and improve physical condition. The information is readily available.


While you do raise a valid point about charity, the money spent on animals are, for the most part, a very negligible amount, such as a food and the occasional toy, however, it's absolutely no different than people spending money on World of Warcraft, dance lessons, ps3 games, a night on the town or a new fashion item.
Do you donate whatever disposable income you have to people in need?

[TheBeardedOne]

Actually, I have done that. I put a doggy treat on the floor but forgot to tell him that he can eat it, then went to school. When I got back, it was still there and after he had greeted me, he started staring at the treat with really sad eyes and tried to get my attention. When I said he could have it, he ran to it and it was gone in a few bites. Anyway, some animals are pretty intelligent. Dogs have said to be on the same level with a 3 year old child.

Oh and what might that better use for be? If you're suggesting developing a sterility virus for Africa or holding them in cages, it's inhuman and I think they should make their own mistakes and come out of it. Just throwing food and money at them only makes the problem go worse, they would still multiply like rabbits and then starve. Nothing anyone can do if they choose to be this way.

WTF, honestly you reinforce every single stereotype for people that are too attached to their pets, how do you equate better use to genocide or keeping other humans in cages. Also have you ever heard of educating people, why do you think we have it so much better, because we are educated (most of us anyway). Also to further my point the amount of resources such as water, land space and even emissions just to feed your pet is considerable. I love how their is so much advocacy for saving pets at shelters and how they all care for pets but your quite happy to feed you pets other domesticated animals. Anyway I guess i have never had an attachment for animals and will never understand but it still amazes me.

Nilan yes I don't deny animals each have their own unique traits and emotions, but they still have no morals or understanding of right or wrong, they are only taught behaviors. But this doesn't deny the fact that many people grow unhealthy attachments to an animal and think they are something more than they are.

[eriseis]

I too believe some animals out there are much more intelligent then we give them credit for, for example I hate sitting through those ASPCA commercials and such that show animal abuse, I will actively mute or turn the channel because to me it's just saddening.

Then again, I do enjoy the taste of whale, which I sampled in Norway...to me, most seafood isn't that smart anyways. Still say whales are just big fish.

Except whales are mammals o.O

---------- Post added 2012-04-30 at 05:49 AM ----------

A lot of people interpret their pets facial expressions in terms of human emotions. Just be careful because what you think might mean "I am happy" might mean "Im going to bite your face off."

Or "I am happy I'm going to bite your face off".

[Deleted]

WTF, honestly you reinforce every single stereotype for people that are too attached to their pets, how do you equate better use to genocide or keeping other humans in cages. Also have you ever heard of educating people, why do you think we have it so much better, because we are educated (most of us anyway). Also to further my point the amount of resources such as water, land space and even emissions just to feed your pet is considerable. I love how their is so much advocacy for saving pets at shelters and how they all care for pets but your quite happy to feed you pets other domesticated animals. Anyway I guess i have never had an attachment for animals and will never understand but it still amazes me.

Nilan yes I don't deny animals each have their own unique traits and emotions, but they still have no morals or understanding of right or wrong, they are only taught behaviors. But this doesn't deny the fact that many people grow unhealthy attachments to an animal and think they are something more than they are.

Because we keep pets in cages and don't let them multiply as much as they would like to. If we just had wild herds of cats and dogs running around, throwing food at them would only make it worse and them multiply even more.

With humans we can't put them into captivity and control their numbers but that doesn't mean feeding them wouldn't create the same outcome. If we send food to them and through some miracle it actually reaches them and doesn't go to the local army instead, they would get fed for a month, have 5 more babies and want 5 times more food next month.

So no, there is no "better use" for the money that goes for the pet. The pet is making ME happy, caring for him and having a loyal companion is satisfying for me as well as for other pet owners with their respective pets. It's money well spent. I don't understand the people who come and tell what others should do with their property. If you've earned it, you can burn the money in a pit in the back yard if it makes you happy, it's money well spent.

[TheBeardedOne]

Who advocates that dogs or cats are superior to other animals? They're most certainly not, but culturally, those are the animals we keep as pets and form bonds with. Clearly, animals don't follow human social conventions such as morals, but they're far from robots that are unable to show affection and devotion. And clearly, people who love animals and take one in, will do so in order to make the animal part of the family and love it as such, and that shouldn't be knocked. You're in no position to tell other people what they can, or cannot have as the object of their affection. In fact, it's proven to reduce stress levels and improve physical condition. The information is readily available.


While you do raise a valid point about charity, the money spent on animals are, for the most part, a very negligible amount, such as a food and the occasional toy, however, it's absolutely no different than people spending money on World of Warcraft, dance lessons, ps3 games, a night on the town or a new fashion item.
Do you donate whatever disposable income you have to people in need?

No where did i say or tell people how to spend their money, i simply said i find it staggering how much money they spend on their pets, hell i have had friends easily drop 10-15k on trying to save a cat from terminal cancer only to put it down twos weeks after. And I know more than a few people that are going to leave vasts amounts of money in their wills to pet charities.

[eriseis]

No where did i say or tell people how to spend their money, i simply said i find it staggering how much money they spend on their pets, hell i have had friends easily drop 10-15k on trying to save a cat from terminal cancer only to put it down twos weeks after. And I know more than a few people that are going to leave vasts amounts of money in their wills to pet charities.

Pet owners are really attached to their pets and have an emotional investment in them.

[Dundebuns]

I think it's incorrect to state that animals show humanity, and to be more accurate humans show animalistic traits. A lot of the traits we hold dear, like sharing and compassion, are shown by animals to all sorts of the degrees. If you want humanistic traits look at things we have learned from our society, such as avarice, greed and a lust for power.

[TheBeardedOne]

Because we keep pets in cages and don't let them multiply as much as they would like to. If we just had wild herds of cats and dogs running around, throwing food at them would only make it worse and them multiply even more.

With humans we can't put them into captivity and control their numbers but that doesn't mean feeding them wouldn't create the same outcome. If we send food to them and through some miracle it actually reaches them and doesn't go to the local army instead, they would get fed for a month, have 5 more babies and want 5 times more food next month.

So no, there is no "better use" for the money that goes for the pet. The pet is making ME happy, caring for him and having a loyal companion is satisfying for me as well as for other pet owners with their respective pets. It's money well spent. I don't understand the people who come and tell what others should do with their property. If you've earned it, you can burn the money in a pit in the back yard if it makes you happy, it's money well spent.

I'm sorry but for f#$%s sake, can you not f#$%ing read, no where did i tell you how to spend your money, I said i find it staggering how much money people spend on their pets, if you can't read between the lines this is my observations of other people and my opinion on it. Also did I state any charities or how this money should be spent, but go ahead and jump to some conclusions. All i said was just imagine, none of these statements are telling anyone what to do, they are simply a opinion that seems to have offended you to the point where you must irrational pull more meaning out of it than was intended, its the internet people are going to have opinions you don't like. As for the products used for pet food, its funny how "animal lovers"(no i' m not one obviously) are quite happy to feed your pets other killed animals. I sued to drive past a pet food place every day going to work, is was a farm with hundreds, if not thousands of crappy looking animals waiting to be slaughtered, hell i would rather see this land used for a park or even plant some bio fuel crops and make some fuel. But hey this is just all my opinion

[Harthmut]

No where did i say or tell people how to spend their money, i simply said i find it staggering how much money they spend on their pets, hell i have had friends easily drop 10-15k on trying to save a cat from terminal cancer only to put it down twos weeks after. And I know more than a few people that are going to leave vasts amounts of money in their wills to pet charities.

Have you ever had a dog or cat?
I doubt it. Either you didn't or you havn't had a good relationship to them.

I've had a dog, and dogs for example, become a part of your family. The love and trust a dog shows to you is just amazing at times. They come to you when you feel down, trying to cheer you up, they show comfort when you have a wound (I had a pretty deep cutting wound from my garden scissors and my dog always tried to "treat" the wound), they're loyal, trusty companions all life long.
You don't want to throw that away like, say, a plushie you maybe liked because it was your favourite as a kid. It's a living, breathing being, not a toy, and worth every single cent you maybe spend into health care.