This idiot is the reason Thunder Bluff stands

[Albert the fish]

I was doing some quests in South Barrens, and then came across this guy named General Hawthorne, and his dialogue screams Horde favoritism because he is not doing what he should be, and needs to be removed. He claims he doesn't want to butcher innocents, despite the Horde butchering Alliance civilians daily.

What is up with this?

wait what?
this is a disjointed thought at best.
could you walk me through this and explain how you made these connections

[Deleted]

I'm having trouble reading this thread because I'm completely convinced the OP was mocking people who do actually moan about alliance favourtism yet everyone else seems to think otherwise.

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

Two words: Bubble. Hearth.

I'm assuming you didn't play in Vanilla, since bubble hearths existed long after Alliance got shamans, and you don't seem to understand how big the utility gap was between paladins and shamans.

Bubble hearthing was merely a gimmick that allowed Paladins to escape a repair bill when all hope was already lost on an encounter.

A shaman could, and still can, self-rez. So in Vanilla, an Alliance raid would start to wipe on, say Vaelestraz the Corrupt (which, regardless of faction, age, race, gender, geographic location, skill level, or IQ, happened a great deal of the time) and if the Paladin healer was about to die, the best he/she could do is bubble hearth, which was essentially abandoning your raid to live during a wipe. In a Horde raid, a shaman would die, and then *poof* they were back alive again, no druids with their seeds and 60 hour cooldowns needed. Oh the Shaman has Burning Adrenaline; no problem, he'll just self-rez. What, the shaman didn't dance fast enough in Heigen's room, that's okay, he can self-rez. The shaman couldn't out-run Buru the Gorger, whatever he'll just self-rez.

I'm not saying Shamans were overpowered in Vanilla, although the support for the argument is certainly there, but compared to Paladin's bubble-hearthing, Shamans were faction specific messiahs, just popping back to life and healing people.

And Frost Shock was so irritating in PvP I can't explain it without getting infracted.

[Deathgoose]

I'm assuming you didn't play in Vanilla, since bubble hearths existed long after Alliance got shamans, and you don't seem to understand how big the utility gap was between paladins and shamans.

Bubble hearthing was merely a gimmick that allowed Paladins to escape a repair bill when all hope was already lost on an encounter.

A shaman could, and still can, self-rez. So in Vanilla, an Alliance raid would start to wipe on, say Vaelestraz the Corrupt (which, regardless of faction, age, race, gender, geographic location, skill level, or IQ, happened a great deal of the time) and if the Paladin healer was about to die, the best he/she could do is bubble hearth, which was essentially abandoning your raid to live during a wipe. In a Horde raid, a shaman would die, and then *poof* they were back alive again, no druids with their seeds and 60 hour cooldowns needed. Oh the Shaman has Burning Adrenaline; no problem, he'll just self-rez. What, the shaman didn't dance fast enough in Heigen's room, that's okay, he can self-rez. The shaman couldn't out-run Buru the Gorger, whatever he'll just self-rez.

I'm not saying Shamans were overpowered in Vanilla, although the support for the argument is certainly there, but compared to Paladin's bubble-hearthing, Shamans were faction specific messiahs, just popping back to life and healing people.

And Frost Shock was so irritating in PvP I can't explain it without getting infracted.

And I'm assuming you can't understand a joke. Especially since I'm primarily an Alliance player! Anytime Paladins would complain about their class being a broken pile of crap, "Bubble" was always thrown into their face as to why they should remain the way they were.

Although, I think you are overlooking the fact that Horde complained because only Alliance had Kings back then (Plus Fear Ward as the Dwarven Priest racial spell)

[volkithewarlock]

Love the people who claim either side is favored, especially when you look back through the history or warcraft and you see the amount of screw ups by the alliance. Night elves have been screwing up azeroth for thousands of years. Azshara brought the legion here, which lead to the destruction of the well of eternity, blowing azeroth up and splitting it in to 2 lands. exile the high born, who in turn teach the humans how to use magic, which in turn leads to the burning legion wanting to come back, but they need help so they find the orcs and corrupt them, bring them to azeroth and try again to destroy it. Orcs try to be peaceful but humans enslave them, leading to them revolting and reforming the new horde. The taurens used to be friends with the night elves but they turned their back on the tauren and taurens join the new horde. Oh and the liche king was....yep, a human, who then in turn created the scourge, which after breaking free became the forsaken, and joined forces with the new horde cuase humans wanted to kill them all off. So to sum this all up, pretty much mostly all the horrific events of azeroth have been cuased by the alliance. The horde are just trying to defend themselves and create an existance out of what they have, but the alliance just won't leave them alone....lol!

edit: forgot to mention that it was the dwarfs who freed Ragnaros and brought him upon azeroth too, may remember more but i will hold them for later!

[YoungNasteyman]

For the Horde! Innocent, shminnocent!

[Deathgoose]

Love the people who claim either side is favored, especially when you look back through the history or warcraft and you see the amount of screw ups by the alliance. Night elves have been screwing up azeroth for thousands of years. Azshara brought the legion here, which lead to the destruction of the well of eternity, blowing azeroth up and splitting it in to 2 lands. exile the high born, who in turn teach the humans how to use magic, which in turn leads to the burning legion wanting to come back, but they need help so they find the orcs and corrupt them, bring them to azeroth and try again to destroy it. Orcs try to be peaceful but humans enslave them, leading to them revolting and reforming the new horde. The taurens used to be friends with the night elves but they turned their back on the tauren and taurens join the new horde. Oh and the liche king was....yep, a human, who then in turn created the scourge, which after breaking free became the forsaken, and joined forces with the new horde cuase humans wanted to kill them all off. So to sum this all up, pretty much mostly all the horrific events of azeroth have been cuased by the alliance. The horde are just trying to defend themselves and create an existance out of what they have, but the alliance just won't leave them alone....lol!

Let's just say your grasp on WoW Lore is tenuous at best.

[Darsithis]

Love the people who claim either side is favored, especially when you look back through the history or Warcraft and you see the amount of screw ups by the alliance. Night elves have been screwing up Azeroth for thousands of years. Azshara brought the legion here, which lead to the destruction of the well of eternity, blowing Azeroth up and splitting it in to 2 lands. exile the high born, who in turn teach the humans how to use magic, which in turn leads to the burning legion wanting to come back, but they need help so they find the orcs and corrupt them, bring them to Azeroth and try again to destroy it. Orcs try to be peaceful but humans enslave them, leading to them revolting and reforming the new horde. The taurens used to be friends with the night elves but they turned their back on the tauren and taurens join the new horde. Oh and the liche king was....yep, a human, who then in turn created the scourge, which after breaking free became the forsaken, and joined forces with the new horde cuase humans wanted to kill them all off. So to sum this all up, pretty much mostly all the horrific events of azeroth have been caused by the alliance. The horde are just trying to defend themselves and create an existence out of what they have, but the alliance just won't leave them alone....lol!

edit: forgot to mention that it was the dwarfs who freed Ragnaros and brought him upon azeroth too, may remember more but i will hold them for later!

The Burning Legion created the Scourge with the intent that their puppet, the Lich King (an orc soul), would weaken Azeroth so they could invade. The Lich King subverted a human (Arthas) and brought him to the Frozen Throne, merging with him after Illidan's spell fractured his prison and caused his powers to leak out. The Alliance did not create the Scourge or the Forsaken.

The humans, as a whole, did not seek out the Orcs. That was the doing of the Burning Legion, who used Sargeras' essence in Medivh to tempt him into opening a portal for the newly demon blood-crazed Orcish horde to invade, an invasion that failed pretty miserably (hence the second plan, the Scourge).

I won't even get into the ideas of the Night Elves not being part of the Alliance at the time of the War of the Ancients...

I suggest you take some time to read the lore before posting about it.

[Uennie]

You scream of Alliance blindness, Salad. As per usual ...

Hawthorne's story is tragic and misunderstood from both sides. It's only after you do them or care enough to research that his character reveals itself as rounded and worthy of representing the Alliance.

[Joodoc]

I was doing some quests in South Barrens, and then came across this guy named General Hawthorne, and his dialogue screams Horde favoritism because he is not doing what he should be, and needs to be removed. He claims he doesn't want to butcher innocents, despite the Horde butchering Alliance civilians daily.

What is up with this?

Some horde have attacked alliance, but the tauren rarely join in on that. Also you guys slaughtered innocents at camp taurajo without any warning, so you have already killed innocents. I can't remember any killing of innocents, soldiers yes, but I don't remember any horde killing innocents without warning. we annialated southshore(finally) but that has been goign on for a long time, and anyone still there knew the risk of remaining. There was no conflict with campt taurajo... yet you guys came in and just killed... everybody

---------- Post added 2012-04-30 at 04:36 PM ----------

Seriously, there are no "good guys" in the Horde vs. Alliance war. Both factions have good, and bad sides. Neither is "better" or "worse" than the other. The Alliance are fascist monarchists, the Horde are a warmongering, well, horde. The Alliance is also often just and the leaders are often (but not always) noble, where the Horde are more egalitarian and (generally speaking) honorable.

And of course, there are expections to all those generalities. The point is, neither side are the "good guys". It's not "favoritism" to show both sides of both factions.

Exactly this. I mean there is the one general dude who like flips out in barrens and then stonetalon, and orders you to kill innocents(tauren family) because the father of the family wouldn't attack a night elf settlement, and then garrosh kills him just because some are evil and kill innocents, doesn't mean all are. there are both on both sides

---------- Post added 2012-04-30 at 04:39 PM ----------

Silverwind Refugee: the horde buchered here all of the civilians that lived there for example.
Bomb in Stonetalon mountain: you kill there young druids, children with a big bomb
Theramore will be destroyed with (lorewise) thousands of dead.

For the forsaken part:
Farmers get butchered in western plaguelands
Southshore
Gilneas

The farmers were fighting, thus no longer "innocents" and the dude that lead the stonetalon thing was a misguided fool who the horde removed.

where is silverwind refuge, I can't for the life of me remember it

---------- Post added 2012-04-30 at 04:40 PM ----------

That was my first thought, too. You're mad at the tauren for being upset about a slaughter against them instead of like... something that makes more sense? My brother played alliance since the beginning and he's told me his die-hard alliance guild think the tauren should be on the alliance side because "they're so peaceful and honorable" and don't even really fit the horde. They obviously do because of all that 'lore' stuff, like when the orcs saved them from the centaurs (which was an optional side quest in that campaign level lolol).

In case you forgot, Garrosh killed Cairne. (No, it wasn't the Grimtotem because Garrosh had to swing the axe for the poison to work.)

It was still the grimtotem, because Cairne was winning, garrosh woudl have lost if not for the grimtotem

---------- Post added 2012-04-30 at 04:44 PM ----------

One side is allied with genocidal undead. The other is allied with pacifist space goats.
One side had its bloodthirsty warchief slay an allied faction's leader in a duel to the death. The other was manipulated by Black Dragons into shortchanging a mason's guild.
One side mercilessly lays waste to peaceful dwarves in the midst of an apocalypse. The other valiantly tries to hold the dwarven society together, even down to their wedding's.
One side slaughtered hundreds of soldiers attacking the Lich King at Mord'rethar The Death Gate. The other side allowed the enemy general to reclaim the body of his dead son.

The Horde may not be the "bad guys" but they are completely and undeniably the more morally bankrupt faction. Even still being allied with the Undead is enough to earn them that title alone. And yes, there has been Horde favoritism coursing through this game ever since Vanilla, just ask any Vanilla Paladin what he thought of Horde Shamans with their self-rezzing and frost shocks. Metzen has repeatedly admitted that he just can't help himself, he loves Orcs, Thrall, and all things Horde much more than he likes the Alliance. It's just something you get used to playing as an Alliance character.

Hey lets take all the worst of the horde, and compare it to the best of the alliance. that sounds completely fair to me. Lets forget to mention that the horde went and wiped out the udnead that caused that plague, and that those undead attacked the horde too. Lets forget that the alliance obliterated camp T. lets forget that the horde try to set up a strong but not bloodthirsty army(killing stupid general thing) lets forget that the alliance is allied with creatures that turn into bloodthirsty wolves. lets forget that horde are allied with pacifist tauren. Lets forget that the duel was supposed to be an honorable one, and that dishonorable death was because of magatha.

---------- Post added 2012-04-30 at 04:49 PM ----------

I'm assuming you didn't play in Vanilla, since bubble hearths existed long after Alliance got shamans, and you don't seem to understand how big the utility gap was between paladins and shamans.

Bubble hearthing was merely a gimmick that allowed Paladins to escape a repair bill when all hope was already lost on an encounter.

A shaman could, and still can, self-rez. So in Vanilla, an Alliance raid would start to wipe on, say Vaelestraz the Corrupt (which, regardless of faction, age, race, gender, geographic location, skill level, or IQ, happened a great deal of the time) and if the Paladin healer was about to die, the best he/she could do is bubble hearth, which was essentially abandoning your raid to live during a wipe. In a Horde raid, a shaman would die, and then *poof* they were back alive again, no druids with their seeds and 60 hour cooldowns needed. Oh the Shaman has Burning Adrenaline; no problem, he'll just self-rez. What, the shaman didn't dance fast enough in Heigen's room, that's okay, he can self-rez. The shaman couldn't out-run Buru the Gorger, whatever he'll just self-rez.

I'm not saying Shamans were overpowered in Vanilla, although the support for the argument is certainly there, but compared to Paladin's bubble-hearthing, Shamans were faction specific messiahs, just popping back to life and healing people.

And Frost Shock was so irritating in PvP I can't explain it without getting infracted.

most of the stuff that killed the shaman and the shaman came back for, the paladin coudl have bubbled and avoided death

---------- Post added 2012-04-30 at 04:52 PM ----------

Let's just say your grasp on WoW Lore is tenuous at best.

actually his lore was pretty good(nix arthas creating the scourge) well, and he mixed high elves and hight elves, but the high elves were still associated with the alliance.

[Deleted]

Hawthorne believed that if you actually try to conduct war honorably, ethically and with compassion instead of stooping down to the level of both some Horde generals and some of his own likes, you could eventually accomplish peace between both sides. He fought because war demands fighting, not because he wanted to murder innocents.

The Horde didn't know this, so Hawthorne was murdered for crimes he tried his best to avoid.
The Alliance didn't know this, so his death just made their forces in the Southern Barrens more fierce and cruel, which was the complete opposite of what he would have wanted.

What we're looking at here is basically a tragic hero. Hawthorne was the kind of guy both sides would need more of to reach a good end to this war, and yet he (inadvertedly) only served to amplify the violence. He was not a Horde sympathist.

[Velerios]

Theramore: Undercity, Silvermoon, and Orgrimmar have all been destroyed or badly damaged in game. Silvermoon has been half-destroyed since it was introduced in BC.

You missed the Felwood-Outpost that was overrun by !!!!!SLIMEBLOBS!!!!!

Would you please only make examples of destruction done by the opposite faction and not about other factions? Orgrimmar got damaged by the Twilight Hammer, Undercity didn't get destroyed at all, it was only overtaken by the Burning Legion and a Forsaken-internal fight and Silvermoon was damaged by the scourge, not by the Alliance.

I also didn't took the destruction of Auberdine, the destruction of the Stonewrought-dam and the following partial destruction of Harbot of Menethil in account when i talk about the Horde.

And sry maybe it's like beating a dead horse to talk about favouritism, but it's a fact for me, simply if you compare the Goblin quests against the awful implementation of the Worgen; if you want to see the whole worgen storyline you need to reroll to horde; this says a lot. And a whole zone rebuld to show a big horde logo on the world map does nor really help in this matter.

[Uennie]

You missed the Felwood-Outpost that was overrun by !!!!!SLIMEBLOBS!!!!!

Would you please only make examples of destruction done by the opposite faction and not about other factions? Orgrimmar got damaged by the Twilight Hammer, Undercity didn't get destroyed at all, it was only overtaken by the Burning Legion and a Forsaken-internal fight and Silvermoon was damaged by the scourge, not by the Alliance.

I also didn't took the destruction of Auberdine, the destruction of the Stonewrought-dam and the following partial destruction of Harbot of Menethil in account when i talk about the Horde.

And sry maybe it's like beating a dead horse to talk about favouritism, but compared to the Goblin quests the awful implementation of the Worgen; if you want to see the whole worgen storyline you need to reroll to horde; this says a lot. And a whole zone rebuld to show a big horde logo on the world map does nor really help in this matter.

I like the Worgen starting line.

Bloodvenom was not over-run by Slimes (by which I mean that's not how it was destroyed, a bunch of slimes didn't just show up one day), and you can't get upset at the Horde when both sides lost townships to Deathwing's destruction. The Alliance has also GAINED many a strategic foothold since the Cataclysm.

And the Goblins are kind of hilarious little bomb-threats who destroyed the coastline of Azshara to create that anyway. I think the mere fact that there are no Alliance races zealous enough to do that would be a pro for people.

[Scummer]

The problem is, the Horde was always like this, the only time they weren't was because Thrall was in charge and kept the homicidal tendancies of his soldiers in check for the better of the Hordes image while he searched for peace.

You even hear it from other orcs before Cata, that a majority of them still wanted blood, but they didn't go seeking it out because they respected Thrall as warchief and his command, even though they didn't like his ideologies.

Oh I know, and it's the reason I dislike them as a race. They need a baby sitter or else they go psycho again. Thrall's always been more of a Shepard than a Warchief to his people, despite being beaten as enslaved child he wasn't taught to value strength above everything else like the rest of the Orcs teach. People also need to realise one of the major factors Garrosh was made Warchief was because the Orcs actually wanted him as Warchief with full knowledge for his violent tendencies.

[Necrolepsy]

I play alliance and I think the OP needs to stop having such a complex about the horde getting anything.

[Vesker]

an eye for an eye leaves the world blind.

He says while steamrolling over Theramore.

[Mormolyce]

I was doing some quests in South Barrens, and then came across this guy named General Hawthorne, and his dialogue screams Horde favoritism because he is not doing what he should be, and needs to be removed. He claims he doesn't want to butcher innocents, despite the Horde butchering Alliance civilians daily.

What is up with this?

LOL is all I can say to this.

[Verdugo]

Implying that the alliance is even capable of taking down anything bigger than village.

[Deleted]

where the Horde are more egalitarian and (generally speaking) honorable.

Orcish peons might want to have a word with you about the Horde egalitarianism. Also, when honor doesn't mean "he's weaker than me, so i will not strike him down", but it means "he's weak, he deserves to die or serve", and it means "he insulted me, i shall spill his blood"... i don't think being honorable is a good thing.

---------- Post added 2012-05-01 at 08:20 AM ----------

Hawthorne believed that if you actually try to conduct war honorably, ethically and with compassion instead of stooping down to the level of both some Horde generals and some of his own likes, you could eventually accomplish peace between both sides. He fought because war demands fighting, not because he wanted to murder innocents.

He made a very serious mistake, that has happened before to other honorable military leaders: he didn't realize that after you attack a civilian settlement, you become responsible for whatever happens to them. While having the best of intentions, yes, Hawthorne was responsible/guilty for their doom. And he knew it, himself.
When one doesn't want to hurt the civilian population, there are only 2 options: either you offer the settlement to surrender and be occupied peacefully, taking their weapons away, or you capture the civilians, making sure they are not to be hurt while in captivity, and then offer the enemy to hand them over peacefully.

[Squirreludecker]

So what you're trying to say is, if someone is butchering innocents (which, btw, where is the Horde doing this, save the Forsaken?), then everyone has to butcher innocents?

That logic doesn't make much sense.

The Forsaken are part of the horde, so it IS the horde that are/were doing it. Saying the horde is noble, except for this one faction that are psychopathic baby killers, doesnt make much sense.