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  1. #61
    I'd consider the CP generation of Assassination better than Subtlety, as you know where you stand during each GCD.
    A good sub rogue does as well. This is simply lack of practice on your part.

    Mutilating on 1CP will put you at 3CPs or 4CPs, whereas due to the way Honour Amongst Thieves works you can never be quite sure if a 1CP generator or a 2CP generator will do.
    See... first, you only HAVE 1 CP generators. Secondly, in all content past 5 mans (and pretty much 5 mans), you'll be getting your combo points from HAT about every 2 seconds- maybe like 2.1 to 2.3 seconds in there or something. Someone will be critting with something. Rejuv tick crits count, hell. So, if you are at 1 CP and you backstab, you'll be at 2 CP, period. If you are do for a HAT proc, you can go to three during that global, sure, but that's because of HAT. Eventually you will learn to anticipate these CPs and not waste them.

    I did want to add that the talent in assassination that makes expose armor free (but costs you at least one damage talent point IIRC) is only worth it if you are the only guy in there that brings expose armor- but that in that case, it actually IS worth it. The last time I ran that was at the dawn of cata running five mans with a pally tank- in a raid, you are almost never the only guy doing that. Any druid is far better at it, for instance.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-01 at 03:11 PM ----------

    When did Rogues get a 1s GCD?
    Hrm. I hadn't seen this. Guys, I think this entire thread may be a troll, and it seems to have cost us Vital.

  2. #62
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Thanks for the wall text.

    I'm not going to go on about EJ any more.

    I threw my character (level 82) into Shadowcraft. Only 5CP Envenoms lose me 0.5% DPS over 4+CP Envenoms, but I can't tell Shadowcraft to Shiv (I removed SS off my bars) from 4 to 5 (I'm assuming it'll Mutilate, which is a waste of CP and Energy). 3+CP Envenoms lose me 0.7% of my DPS over 4+CP. Deadly on my MH and Instant on my OH nets me 1.5% more DPS than the other way around (which is what I've been doing anyway).

    I need a faster OH to make Shiv more worthwhile as it reduces the Energy cost.

    I'll take Eviscerate off my bars. It's getting easier to play with only three or four buffs to juggle.

    With regards to wiping non-optimal specs off the map, I place some weight in the human factor. Some people just can't play/won't play some specs (Arms and Unholy for myself) and get a far more rewarding experience playing something that's non-optimal. I'd go as far to say that a player who enjoys and understands their spec and class will do more DPS than one that struggles through a spec.

    I was going to ask whether a Shiv during a high Energy, high CP situation with Envenom up would be better than clipping Envenom by a second, as it'd prevent Energy capping and preserve the state for the next Envenom.
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  3. #63
    So much wrong with the post above me.

    Deadly always goes on fast weapon. Slow weapon always goes in main hand and always gets instant poison, hence, deadly off, instant main.

    Never shiv. ever. The damage-per-energy of shiv is very very poor. It's better to do a 4 point envenom than it is to get that 5th combo point by ANY means. Given that you have instant poison in your offhand, shiv will never crit and neither will the instant poison it procs.

    Sinister strike should have been removed from your bar at level 10. Eviscerate should have been removed from your bar at level 54.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    I threw my character (level 82) into Shadowcraft.
    See, lines like this make me think you are trolling. Pointing out that you are level 82 is fishing for responses pointing out that you are asking for raiding advice. Maybe I missed this comment earlier, but I very much doubt it.

    Only 5CP Envenoms lose me 0.5% DPS over 4+CP Envenoms, but I can't tell Shadowcraft to Shiv (I removed SS off my bars) from 4 to 5 (I'm assuming it'll Mutilate, which is a waste of CP and Energy).
    If the dps loss is that small for you (and it might be), then you are probably better off with mutilate, not shiv. That damage loss should grow as you get raid geared.

    [quote[3+CP Envenoms lose me 0.7% of my DPS over 4+CP. Deadly on my MH and Instant on my OH nets me 1.5% more DPS than the other way around (which is what I've been doing anyway).[/quote]

    This is likely because...

    I need a faster OH to make Shiv more worthwhile as it reduces the Energy cost.
    If your offhand isn't 1.4 speed, everything will be all mangled for you in any event. This also correlates with my accusation of this all being a stunt to work the rogues helping you up into a lather (and as I pointed out, you already got one hotheaded rogue who actually contributed and knows his class banned, hurting these forums).

    I assume (you haven't linked your character I don't think) that you are running double 1.8s. Once you are properly running 1.8mh and 1.4oh, you will want IP/DP, not DP/IP, and your damage will also just be a lot better.


    I'll take Eviscerate off my bars. It's getting easier to play with only three or four buffs to juggle.
    Fair enough. I have it mapped to 7, and I did use it pre-DS this expac when a boss would cause time off target or something, to keep S+D up. It should be used rarely or never.

    With regards to wiping non-optimal specs off the map, I place some weight in the human factor. Some people just can't play/won't play some specs (Arms and Unholy for myself) and get a far more rewarding experience playing something that's non-optimal. I'd go as far to say that a player who enjoys and understands their spec and class will do more DPS than one that struggles through a spec.
    Maybe, but that's a limit you place on yourself. If I had those kinds of restrictions but felt free to change classes (as you obviously do), I would go down the list of top dps specs until I found one that I could run, and then go level that.


    I was going to ask whether a Shiv during a high Energy, high CP situation with Envenom up would be better than clipping Envenom by a second, as it'd prevent Energy capping and preserve the state for the next Envenom.
    I very much doubt it. If your energy is high from pooling, you pooled too much, but go ahead and clip. If your energy is high because you are getting a million energy a second, then just use mutilates instead of any other CP builder. The damage lost to envenom clipping is pretty small, but the damage lost to losing fractions of mutilates is rather high.

    EDIT: I also point out that since you are running a non 1.4 offhand, shivving is even worse for you.

    My advice to you is: Don't shiv. With IP offhand, you can't even refresh a falling stack of deadly. Since you aren't max level and nothing you do matters yet, you should practice with the full rotation so that you'll be able to use that correctly when you are actually raiding, because you'll want that memorized rotation when you are geared and you are contributing- it'll be a bit more damage then that you'll be gaining than right now.
    Last edited by Verain; 2012-05-01 at 03:49 PM.

  5. #65
    Fluffy Kitten Kelticfox's Avatar
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    We've had discussion and this is off-track and as such I'll lock it.
    Last edited by Kelticfox; 2012-05-01 at 05:44 PM.
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