Reworked Slightly = Totally different pvp rotation?

[Verain]

The datamined changes (which include the 9 second cheap shot, so take with a grain of salt) have put even more damage into Sanguinary Vein- instead of buffing damage by 20% to bleeding targets, it now is 25% to targets affected by YOUR garrote or rupture. If this is true, it has the following effects:

1)- In PvP, you will need to rupture every target, or garrote them, as your damage will be wretched without it.
2)- In PvE, putting up crimson tempest on a group of mobs won't give you the damage boost on your fan of knives. Since this has never seen any tweaking, it is probably fine.

I think this is what we get for wanting to have a reason to use rupture- currently, mutilate uses rupture because it procs energy and sub because of the auto-refresh (and combat rarely under some conditions), but without the auto-refresh, rupture would go out of pve rotations promptly unless given a reason- I think we were all hoping for rupture to do non-joke damage, but with the 25% buff being a thing (aka, rogues will do 75% damage unless the target is ruptured first), rupture could do NO damage and we'd still be married to it.

This also means you'll have to rupture damned near everything in pvp, which is, in my opinion, pretty terrible.

[k0smo]

It's beta, and people pointed out that cheap shot is not 9 seconds. Let's see how it plays out.

[Tokas]

rupture could do NO damage and we'd still be married to it.

made my day

[Deleted]

Hmm, I find it strange that they removed the auto-refresh of Rupture from the Sub spec, seeing as Rupture is so integral to the spec as it is. This makes Sub the only spec that utilizes 3 finishers instead 2; namely Eviscerate, Snd, and Rupture. Combat using Eviscerate and SnD, Assassination using Envenom and Rupture. I had hoped they'd streamline it enough to end up being as simple as the other two specs. Seems like it'll still be the "harder" spec to play, although slightly easier than it currently is. Shame really.

EDIT: Before people point out that Combat has another buff to track or that Assassination has a proc to react to; using a single attack (Revealing Strike) once to keep up a buff or simply using an ability every now and then doesn't exactly compare to planning and utilizing Combo Points in the heat of the moment. Finishers and instant abilities can't be compared.

[Verain]

Hmm, I find it strange that they removed the auto-refresh of Rupture from the Sub spec, seeing as Rupture is so integral to the spec as it is. This makes Sub the only spec that utilizes 3 finishers instead 2; namely Eviscerate, Snd, and Rupture. Combat using Eviscerate and SnD, Assassination using Envenom and Rupture. I had hoped they'd streamline it enough to end up being as simple as the other two specs. Seems like it'll still be the "harder" spec to play, although slightly easier than it currently is. Shame really.

Well... I'm ok with this. I'm pretty sure the live model is better but like

Ok here's the thing. Every spec has two builders, but sub is very much all about backstab. You also don't lose much if you let your hemo dot drop for awhile, whereas combat has to think about RS, and the new Dispatch will also be a bit of cognitive pressure to use the one-combo point proc at times. Plus, sub is supposed to be ABOUT finishers, and honestly feels compensated well for being more complex.

[Deleted]

Well... I'm ok with this. I'm pretty sure the live model is better but like

Ok here's the thing. Every spec has two builders, but sub is very much all about backstab. You also don't lose much if you let your hemo dot drop for awhile, whereas combat has to think about RS, and the new Dispatch will also be a bit of cognitive pressure to use the one-combo point proc at times. Plus, sub is supposed to be ABOUT finishers, and honestly feels compensated well for being more complex.

Addressed this in my previous post, you must've missed it.
Granted, I don't have the experience of the Beta yet so I have no idea how CP generation is for Sub. If it remains somewhat fast, I could easily see this work out fine. However, I do have to say it's a mistake to do this anyway, if the point of removing Recuperate was to streamline and simplify the spec. It just doesn't add up...

"So... How do we streamline the Sub spec? Let's just remove 1 of the 3 finishers it's currently using! This way, Sub rogues will only end up with... Well, let's keep it at 3 finishers! Job accomplished!"

Seems rather strange.

EDIT: Also, I'm slightly confused... Does Sub really only have 1 builder? If so, what exactly is the point of Hemorrhage? Does it do anything nowadays? Does it have a clearly defined role in our rotation?

EDIT 2: To clear things up, I say "3 finishers" seeing as Rupture, ideally, should be a use-and-forget-ish kinda ability.

[Resentful]

It's beta, and people pointed out that cheap shot is not 9 seconds. Let's see how it plays out.

Reports having it actually stun for FIVE seconds rather then increase it 5 since the original value of CS is well 4 seconds

Well in a logical sense I believe

[shadowboy]

(aka, rogues will do 75% damage unless the target is ruptured first)

80%. 25% of 75% is not 25%. 25% of 80% is 20%. 80% + 20% = 100%.

[Wow]

Not rogue every spec was as bad combat in pvp they are slowly correcting this.

[kindath]

EDIT: Also, I'm slightly confused... Does Sub really only have 1 builder? If so, what exactly is the point of Hemorrhage? Does it do anything nowadays? Does it have a clearly defined role in our rotation?

Hemo DID have value in that it added a bleed to activate sanguinary vein, but now sang vein is only activated by garrote and rupture. So really the only reason to hemo is if you're stuck in front of your target and are going to cap energy.

Honestly, sub seems so gutted now that I'll probably pvp as assassination in mists. Who needs find weakness when envenom damage ignores armor anyway?

[Verain]

Addressed this in my previous post, you must've missed it.

Being that you edited while I was posting, yes, but addressing it doesn't make you correct. The point is that sub has a lot less work to do with its combo builders, and the complexity (and it is def. the most complex spec) comes in elsewhere. I would prefer it remain that way, and in light of maintaining a debuff properly (combat) or timing the use of a proc (mutilate)... well, I'm fine with three finishers. Sub is the finisher spec, right?

If it remains somewhat fast,

I didn't raid on the beta, but HAT is unchanged, so yes.

I could easily see this work out fine. However, I do have to say it's a mistake to do this anyway, if the point of removing Recuperate was to streamline and simplify the spec. It just doesn't add up...

It was either the same or the direct next build where they took energy out of recup and stuck it on S+D that also killed off the auto-refresh of rupture, so I'm pretty sure the goal wasn't just to simplify the spec. I was expecting the next step to be a rupture worth casting, not tying all our damned damage to rupture- that shreds our swap in pvp.

EDIT: Also, I'm slightly confused... Does Sub really only have 1 builder? If so, what exactly is the point of Hemorrhage? Does it do anything nowadays? Does it have a clearly defined role in our rotation?

Broadly, you use it to keep up the hemo dot, if you glyph it, and the 1 minute bleed debuff if you don't have anyone else doing it. So, not much purpose- on live, if you glyph shadow dance instead of hemo, your damage is very similar (it is better with the timed dot). And, of course, you are stuck with hemo while you are in front.

EDIT 2: To clear things up, I say "3 finishers" seeing as Rupture, ideally, should be a use-and-forget-ish kinda ability.

I disagree completely. I really like rupture as a third finisher. I liked the sub playstyle best in Nax, when it was broken as all hell, and also the start of Ulduar before they nerfed it, but I view our current version as acceptable, because it involves timing two buff duration guys with the eviscerate that you have to land in time. The one in MOP looks ok, because putting a rupture up as soon as it falls should be a thing you want to do. I just don't like it when they don't make rupture worth casting, tie a hand behind our back unless we blow 5 CP for twenty percent of our damned damage, and then call it a day. That's just terrible- if in fact, that is what is going on.

[Deleted]

Being that you edited while I was posting, yes, but addressing it doesn't make you correct. The point is that sub has a lot less work to do with its combo builders, and the complexity (and it is def. the most complex spec) comes in elsewhere. I would prefer it remain that way, and in light of maintaining a debuff properly (combat) or timing the use of a proc (mutilate)... well, I'm fine with three finishers. Sub is the finisher spec, right?

Don't see how Sub has "less work to do". Granted that I've only played Sub on Spine, I'm still almost permanently energy starved, unless I'm purposely pooling energy while dpsing the Amalgamations. Hell, the rotation functions a lot like that of Combat; nuke your builder until you have 5 points, with the twist that is HAT (which just makes up for Subs lack of energy generation compared to Combat).

And I'd have to disagree, to me it's the single target spec or the burst spec. Not so much the finisher spec.

I didn't raid on the beta, but HAT is unchanged, so yes.

Interesting, I suppose.

It was either the same or the direct next build where they took energy out of recup and stuck it on S+D that also killed off the auto-refresh of rupture, so I'm pretty sure the goal wasn't just to simplify the spec. I was expecting the next step to be a rupture worth casting, not tying all our damned damage to rupture- that shreds our swap in pvp.

That's why I'm saying it doesn't make sense.
Moving energy from Recup into SnD would make Rupture rather easy to keep up, therefore, Rupture could be a 3rd finisher that does quite a bit of damage. I.e. a worthwhile damaging finisher.
Alternatively, they could make it a functional way of normalizing our damage, via the free-refreshing. "You only do the 25% extra damage you're supposed to do with Rupture up, but it'll be up all the time." Fair trade...

However, the way it is now we have to both refresh it manually and live with the risk of immense dps loss if it falls off, not even mentioning how our damage in general is going to get extremely gimped in PvP, seeing as Rupture will now be a must. Essentially, they took the cons of both possibilities and tied them together instead of the pros.

Broadly, you use it to keep up the hemo dot, if you glyph it, and the 1 minute bleed debuff if you don't have anyone else doing it. So, not much purpose- on live, if you glyph shadow dance instead of hemo, your damage is very similar (it is better with the timed dot). And, of course, you are stuck with hemo while you are in front.

Oh, I was going with the tooltip on the talent calculator of MoP, which excludes the bleed debuff effect for some reason.

I disagree completely. I really like rupture as a third finisher. I liked the sub playstyle best in Nax, when it was broken as all hell, and also the start of Ulduar before they nerfed it, but I view our current version as acceptable, because it involves timing two buff duration guys with the eviscerate that you have to land in time. The one in MOP looks ok, because putting a rupture up as soon as it falls should be a thing you want to do. I just don't like it when they don't make rupture worth casting, tie a hand behind our back unless we blow 5 CP for twenty percent of our damned damage, and then call it a day. That's just terrible- if in fact, that is what is going on.

Not sure how this is a relevant response. What I was stating was a fact, observing the current state of the Sub spec. The initial Rupture you land, should ideally stay on the target for the remainder of the fight. That's just the way it is. Just like how Envenom should guarantee a permanent SnD uptime after the inital cast in the Assassination spec. So, again. Sub currently works around 3 finishers + 1 use-and-forget ability.

However, I agree that tying 20% of our damage to our Rupture is a horrendous idea. PvP seems to suffer quite a blow for us rogues.... :/

[Deleted]

Ehm, what's the appeal of subtlety then? Hemo with a bleed that deals no damage and has no other benefits?

[Wow]

Ehm, what's the appeal of subtlety then? Hemo with a bleed that deals no damage and has no other benefits?

If you enjoy positional requirements doing shit dmg if you ever have to be in front of something long ramp up's terrible target switches and dots that tick for 300 subtlety could be appealing.

All rogue specs on beta are complete trash and only getting worse every patch.

[Resentful]

If you enjoy positional requirements doing shit dmg if you ever have to be in front of something long ramp up's terrible target switches and dots that tick for 300 subtlety could be appealing.

All rogue specs on beta are complete trash and only getting worse every patch.

Well It is beta thankfully, I'm sure they will tweak it in time.

[Wow]

Well It is beta thankfully, I'm sure they will tweak it in time.

I'm guessing you haven't been around for any other betas and watched how its gone for rogues everytime. Every beta people have said just wait for that rogue pass that ends up being after 2 patches into live....

Not remember cata's start and we had two dead specs? The first half of every expansion for rogues have been bad because they don't work on them in beta. Pretty much whatever beta starts with is what you will see on live with rogues I really wish I was kidding.

These are the same people have haven't given rogues a blue post on beta in 2 beta's on anything. So with rogues looking like complete shit now in pve and pvp theres not much hope for mop.

[Nosferato]

every expansion 1 class gets huge changes, and every expansion rogues gets the least changes, tweaks or fixes, the ammount we have gotten now is pretty close to the max we get, so we gt wait far into mop before they actually are worth anything, even at that time its a bit late, as we then are the 11th member in a 10 man raid, and the community sees rogue as the class that is least needed for raiding, spez with monks now also beeing popular,
chances of getting loot, like trinkets rings and necks are smaller than for str or casters, as we have hunters, 2 feral specs 2 monks specs and enhance

we are reworked slightly, but the changes we have gotten where changes that should had been done for cata, but ye getting things 1 expansion too late is kinda written into the rogue class, example is the sprint change, we wanted it for wotlk, we got it for cata, the deadly poison change out when icc came, as we where falling behind in the crusader colliseum, we would have fallen behind even in ulduar if it wasnt for the 4pc bonus, so once again changes to our class comes around every 2 years if we are lucky once a year.

even looking at ptr notes, its not supricing to see 9/10 notes missing rogues or 1 or to lines while others have up to a page

[Deleted]

I'm guessing you haven't been around for any other betas and watched how its gone for rogues everytime. Every beta people have said just wait for that rogue pass that ends up being after 2 patches into live....

Not remember cata's start and we had two dead specs? The first half of every expansion for rogues have been bad because they don't work on them in beta. Pretty much whatever beta starts with is what you will see on live with rogues I really wish I was kidding.

These are the same people have haven't given rogues a blue post on beta in 2 beta's on anything. So with rogues looking like complete shit now in pve and pvp theres not much hope for mop.

As much as i hate to admit it this guy is right. Rogues in the beginning of cata were appalling. I was even considering a reroll, though my rogue has been my main for years. Everyone knows rogues are really bad for the first few weeks of the expansion.

[Imbashiethz]

Sub always having to get garrote/rupture up will make the spec incredibly boring. Unless they buff the rupture damage and/or change it. Make it like rake maybe?

[Deleted]

They have to buff the rapture dmg anyway, 3k crit dmg is useless or we really need the 9 sec stun to build up 5cp for S&D, rapture, recuperate
yeah im a bit sarcastic but....