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  1. #361
    Pro Tip: Waiting to play a game you're paying monthly for is not, by default, a good design decision.

    Everyone screaming about how the servers had a better sense of community, and how everyone was happy fun time ponies back in Classic and Pre-BC are wearing nostalgia glasses, plain and simple.

    Here's the gist of what you're trying to argue: Unless you are in a guild that plays at prime time like everyone else in the game, you are sol when it comes to running dungeons and that's...Okay? This is somehow something that Blizzard should aim for? They should alienate the people that only have a few hours a day, if that, to play and say "Sorry, get out, you can't play our game because you aren't playing at the right time." This is the issue SWOTOR has right now, and it's what's killing the game. If you don't play late hours, when your server is bustling the most, you aren't getting anything done, period.

    People that can only play a few hours in the morning, afternoon, or graveyard hours due to their work constraints should, if I'm reading this right, simply not be allowed to do group content easily because they aren't playing when everyone else is, and people are actually saying this is okay. And don't even get me started on the fallacies of "well join a guild and play with the people on your friends list" argument.

    Unless your Friends List is several hundred people long, and your guild has a consistent active roster of some one hundred + players, you are going to run into the simple issues of:
    -No one is online right now to play with
    or
    -The people online right now don't feel like doing dungeons with me.

    Now what? Without LFD/LFR, you get to go spam trade, and if you aren't doing that at a reasonable hour, you aren't getting a group...so yeah, time to go sit down and play another game..when you're pay $15 a month to play it. That makes zero sense, sorry. One should not have to wait to play a game, period (unless of course said game needs to patch).

    If I want to play Dark Souls, I put in the disk, turn my PS3 on, and immediately jump into the game. I do not need to sit there and wait to find people to play with. If I want to play a multiplayer FPS or RTS, I start the game, hit match making (or find a server), hit play, and hey presto, I'm playing a game. It has nothing to do with being entitled, nor does it have anything to do with the age old argument of "Gamers these days have no paitence".

    You payed $60 for the game, you are paying $15 a month to continue to play the game. You should not have to sit in a capital city and spam trade for upwards of an hour to get into a group to do high-end content on the character you want to play. You should not have to bench that character and go play an alt because you can't get groups.

    LFD and LFR has allowed every player in WoW to now play the game as they wish, with whichever character they wish. And you know what's really amazing? It even has a feature in there that's just like pre-bc and BC. If you only want to play with friends, why you can just invite your friends/guildies to your group, hit a button, and off you go!

    The arguments that LFD and LFR are bad for the game are bullocks, as are arguments that they've ruined the community, because I'll let you in on a little secret: There were just as many ass-hats back in pre-bc and BC running 5-mans as there are today, because if you were in a big active raiding guild, you had no reason to be nice to random people you picked up in your trade groups, as even if they "blacklisted" you, you could just as easily go run with your guild later that evening and do content they were never going to see anyways.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Example: I NEVER EVER had to wait more than 30 minutes as dps in TBC in a LOW POP REALM (US Kalecgos).
    I guess you can try to convince people who didn't play that TBC heroic groups were super easy to come by, but those of us who also played during TBC can see through your interesting claims.

    Heck, right now there's probably someone on the SWTOR forums arguing that they don't need LFD because he can find a group in 20 minutes anytime he wants.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    I guess you can try to convince people who didn't play that TBC heroic groups were super easy to come by, but those of us who also played during TBC can see through your interesting claims.

    Heck, right now there's probably someone on the SWTOR forums arguing that they don't need LFD because he can find a group in 20 minutes anytime he wants.
    They usually weren't super easy (unless you were lucky or in a good guild) but they generally weren't 2-3 hour horror as people try to make them out to be.

    And unless you were a guildless asshole you ALWAYS had some friends or guildies (tanks and healers) to invite. You seem to think people only spammed /2 for groups, which is a wrong assumption. I usually ran them in the evening and the guild was full, friend list too and we were ready to go in on average 30-45 minutes, if someone was missing we grabbed him from the /2 pretty quick. Now if you tried running them at 4 am a group may be difficult to find but that was the game's way of telling you you're not getting enough sleep.
    Last edited by Syran; 2012-05-04 at 07:00 AM.

  4. #364
    an easy an cheap solution would be introducing account wide ignore, once the peoples with bad behaviour see their queue skyrocket they will change for sure; in the day of cross realm pug the only deterrent to those is to raise massively their queue time.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Syran View Post
    They usually weren't super easy (unless you were lucky or in a good guild) but they generally weren't 2-3 hour horror as people try to make them out to be.

    And unless you were a guildless asshole you ALWAYS had some friends or guildies (tanks and healers) to invite. You seem to think people only spammed /2 for groups, which is a wrong assumption.
    I'm not assuming anything. I actually played during vanilla and TBC. No matter how much you fluff up your experiences with how little effort it took to get a TBC heroic group together, I have my own experiences. Most people reading this thread have also played MMOs without a LFD tool.

    There's a reason that games that release without LFD fall all over themselves throwing one in ASAP. Because players prefer LFD to having to be a social butterfly to run a stupid dungeon.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Syran View Post
    They usually weren't super easy (unless you were lucky or in a good guild) but they generally weren't 2-3 hour horror as people try to make them out to be.

    And unless you were a guildless asshole you ALWAYS had some friends or guildies (tanks and healers) to invite. You seem to think people only spammed /2 for groups, which is a wrong assumption. I usually ran them in the evening and the guild was full, friend list too and we were ready to go in on average 30-45 minutes, if someone was missing we grabbed him from the /2 pretty quick. Now if you tried running them at 4 am a group may be difficult to find but that was the game's way of telling you you're not getting enough sleep.
    I played shadowpriest in the realm's best guild for most of TBC. We were tier or three ahead of everybody else and only guild that got attuned to TK and BT before attunements were removed. Most of the people in the guild played during weekends while I was outside doing non-WoW stuff. Every single tank that was in friendslist during vanilla was in the guild in TBC or had quitted the game.

    So yes, even with a guild and being best geared SP in the entire realm, the queues could be up to two hours during 15-18 servertime. Why? Because there's oversupply of DPS with no CC.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    I'm not assuming anything. I actually played during vanilla and TBC. No matter how much you fluff up your experiences with how little effort it took to get a TBC heroic group together, I have my own experiences. Most people reading this thread have also played MMOs without a LFD tool.

    There's a reason that games that release without LFD fall all over themselves throwing one in ASAP. Because players prefer LFD to having to be a social butterfly to run a stupid dungeon.
    I don't know, I didn't mind asking people if they wanted to join in and a lot of people didn't too it would seem. After all, this is a MMORPG we're talking about, right. But with the new Cata philosophy of rerunning the same set of dungeons over and over again in a days time it would get boring too I guess.

    I would prefer an experience with working specs (TBC admittedly wasn't brilliant in that part) and a dungeon design which favored somewhat longer, more challenging runs without a need of reruns for the damn whatever currency. More bosses, larger loot tables with more alternatives would improve people's chances of obtaining gear without exposing them to the need of capping some artificial Valor cap. Together with adjusted craftables (no retarded BoP chaos orbs involved) and maybe some better designed archaeology rewards there would be no need to have any kind of points at all, except maybe for some trinkets/offhands/wands.
    Slowing down the game wouldn't hurt, I don't know why everything has to be achieved so fast. Are people suddenly running out of time to play the game?

    For people who don't want to do hard stuff, make some normal versions of heroics, which still drop loot good enough to start raiding with. And that's about it.
    Last edited by Syran; 2012-05-04 at 08:02 AM.

  8. #368
    So essentially can we boil this thread down to people who want a MMO experience, and people who want a single player experience discussing whether the tool implemented for the single player crowd are hurting the gameplay of an MMO.

    I think its agreed that it makes it a more convenient game. Makes it a worse MMO though. Community is filtering out the MMO fans and replacing them with the single player crowd who don't even need a minimum of 10 friends to clear the latest raid content. This is the reason given for how LFD or LFR hurting WoW gameplay. If we wanted a single player game we'd pick up Skyrim for £25 an play that for hours and hours instead of £9 a month for playing WoW
    While Diogenes was relaxing in the sunlight in the morning, Alexander, thrilled to meet the famous philosopher, asked if there was any favour he might do for him. Diogenes replied, "Yes, stand out of my sunlight". Alexander then declared, "If I were not Alexander, then I should wish to be Diogenes", to which Diogenes replied, "If I were not Diogenes, I should also wish to be Diogenes."

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    So essentially can we boil this thread down to people who want a MMO experience, and people who want a single player experience discussing whether the tool implemented for the single player crowd are hurting the gameplay of an MMO.
    What do you mean by MMO experience? To me, the MMO experience is fighting monsters in a dungeon with other people. That's what I want to do when I log on to WoW. Does wanting to spend as much time as possible actually playing the game with other people make me someone who wants a single player experience?

    I can come up with my own skewed categories, as well. People who like LFD are those that are most interested in playing a MMO for its content, even if they don't have as much free time to play. People who hate LFD are those who really enjoy spending huge amounts of time in a virtual world playing the social butterfly.

    There was an interesting thread on the official SWTOR forums the other day.

    http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=442245

    Lots of people who want a LFD for the purpose of actually being able to do all the dungeons(flashpoints). I guess they're part of the "single player crowd" as you described it because they want an easier way to play SWTOR with other players?

  10. #370
    Herald of the Titans Nadev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    So essentially can we boil this thread down to people who want a MMO experience, and people who want a single player experience discussing whether the tool implemented for the single player crowd are hurting the gameplay of an MMO.

    I think its agreed that it makes it a more convenient game. Makes it a worse MMO though. Community is filtering out the MMO fans and replacing them with the single player crowd who don't even need a minimum of 10 friends to clear the latest raid content. This is the reason given for how LFD or LFR hurting WoW gameplay. If we wanted a single player game we'd pick up Skyrim for £25 an play that for hours and hours instead of £9 a month for playing WoW
    So wanting a feature that makes the premier function of the game convenient makes me a "single player"?

    Waiting half an hour to form a group and then spending another half an hour running to the instance is not fun.
    Men!

    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    I picked Biden because he may throw Obama into the Death Star's reactor core, restoring balance to the Force.

    Now having a ball on SWTOR!

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    So essentially can we boil this thread down to people who want a MMO experience, and people who want a single player experience discussing whether the tool implemented for the single player crowd are hurting the gameplay of an MMO.
    What this thread boils down to is that there are people whose idea of what the game should be are so dogmatically self-involved that they are willing to deny even the possibility that there might be another way to approach an MMO with over 10 million players. It's just another example of the primate tendency towards mindless, pointless, self-righteous, narrow-minded tribalism.

    Look, if you're one of those people who just needs to be liked, that's fine, but that's your deal. It's OK to feel that way, but it's not OK to externalize it or to declare that it's the way things ought to be for everyone. I neither want nor need to be friends with every single person I encounter in the game world, because I'm just not that desperate for attention and companionship. I have friends already. In MMOs as in real life, I'm perfectly fine with having a small core group of friends and considering everyone else in the game an acquaintance at best.

    And before anyone inevitably jumps to the extreme, I'm not one of those people who queues up in LFD for the sole purpose of treating other people like shit, because I'm not a sociopath. I usually don't even bother talking back to people who blow up in party chat anymore, I just put them on ignore and move on with my day. Sure, I'm also not there to go out of my way to turn everyone I see into my best bud, but here's the key to that: I wasn't one of those people before LFD existed, either. LFD has had virtually no impact on the way I interact with other players on a personal level. The only thing it did was to make it easier for me to run dungeons, which given that that was its stated purpose, is not any kind of meta-game problem for me. If you want to spend all your time making trade-chat buddies instead of actually running dungeons, more power to you, but I think that not running dungeons is a complete waste of the time that I'd rather spend actually running dungeons.

    And I think that people who decry the antisociality of LFD are overstating the case to the point of absurdity. Do bad groups exist? Of course. But the vast majority of the LFD groups I've been in have gone just fine. People are friendly (or at least not unfriendly), do their jobs adequately, and leave each other on generally good terms. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, because that's how most of our interpersonal relationships work in real life, too. Have you ever gone out of your way to make friends with the other customers at Macy's when you're there to buy yet more brown socks because no matter how many times you wash them, you can never find a clean goddamn pair? Of course you haven't, because why would you? And if you tried, most people would react to you as if you were some kind of weirdo, because that's not really how normal people act. That's how serial killers behave on the TV looky-box. That shit is creepy.

    The moral of the story is that it's not Blizzard's fault that the market has outvoted you. If you enjoy pugging 5-man groups in trade chat, then you can still try to do that. Be the change that you wish to see. But demanding that Blizzard find ways to force the rest of us to do the things you want to do even though we obviously don't want to just makes you look narcissistic, petulant, and selfish.
    Last edited by microtonal; 2012-05-04 at 10:35 PM.

  12. #372
    LFD and LFR aren't hurting WoW. The people that make life miserable for others in LFD and LFR are hurting wow. It is and has always been a people issue.
    Humans are the only species on the planet smart enough to be this stupid.

  13. #373
    Its hurting and helping gameplay at the same time. With the intro of it don't expect it to be taken away too many people now rely on it for it to be taken out. It hurts it as you said but helps for people on low level servers or for low levels and not everyone has hours upon hours to form and do a raid when they could simply do lfr that takes half the time. Lets not forget that not everyone is good at games its a nice feeling to join a LFR knowing you could never do a Reg because you arn't good enough to do so and still end up seeing the content and game you payed for. Wow hobby>Wow job.

  14. #374
    Stood in the Fire Tag of Fire's Avatar
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    It may diminish the sense of community in the way that you aren't forced to interact with people to get your group together.
    But it enhances the gameplay experience (in my opinion) because it makes content more available. And let's be honest, we play to play.
    Not everyone is capable of creating groups for dungeons or raids.

    It takes away the exclusiveness of content, something Blizzard has been doing ever since Wrath of the Lich King.
    I've had my doubts about this as well, preferring the Burning Crusade way of progression, but in the end we just want to play, and see and experience new things.

    We should accept the fact that not everyone is able to see content without Blizzard making it accessible through means of Looking For Dungeon, Looking For Raid, and even the nerfs of Tiers and the downscaling of Justice and Valor Points.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    So essentially can we boil this thread down to people who want a MMO experience, and people who want a single player experience discussing whether the tool implemented for the single player crowd are hurting the gameplay of an MMO.

    I think its agreed that it makes it a more convenient game. Makes it a worse MMO though. Community is filtering out the MMO fans and replacing them with the single player crowd who don't even need a minimum of 10 friends to clear the latest raid content. This is the reason given for how LFD or LFR hurting WoW gameplay. If we wanted a single player game we'd pick up Skyrim for £25 an play that for hours and hours instead of £9 a month for playing WoW
    you might want to re-read this post
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post16687501
    Oh, and also this post: (added after i typed and posted mine)
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post16696473

    those of us who played during Vanilla/BC dont want it back. Pretty much every change was welcomed when it was made. The things that are griped about now, i can remember clearly how happy everyone was when they no longer had to deal with them. Back in vanilla, the biggest complaint i saw from people about going to BC was that they were extending the talent trees instead of letting us have 10 more points in the other trees.

    People who want LFG/LFR gone are more than welcome to cancel their accounts, and put "take out LFG" in the "reason for quitting" box.
    Last edited by Squirreludecker; 2012-05-04 at 10:55 PM. Reason: added another link
    Originally Posted by Zarhym
    It does no one any good to make GhostCrawler the scapegoat for all design decisions you disapprove of. Not how reality works.
    https://twitter.com/CM_Zarhym/status/275712376840531968

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    What do you mean by MMO experience? To me, the MMO experience is fighting monsters in a dungeon with other people. That's what I want to do when I log on to WoW. Does wanting to spend as much time as possible actually playing the game with other people make me someone who wants a single player experience?
    You could just as easily be describing Gauntlet Legends.
    If this is what an MMO experience is to you, would you not have a better experience if all barriers to fighting monsters in dungeons were removed?

    People who hate LFD are those who really enjoy spending huge amounts of time in a virtual world playing the social butterfly.
    People who hate LFD generally consider it to be one step away from an MMORPG and one step towards a lobby game like LoL. They do enjoy spending time in a virtual world because that is the essence of this game.

    And I don't necessarily hate LFD myself. I'm pretty much on the fence since I see the both the pros and the cons of having it.

  17. #377
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolercaust View Post
    And I don't necessarily hate LFD myself. I'm pretty much on the fence since I see the both the pros and the cons of having it.
    Like so much with this game, it's a personal thing. I can easily see the downside to LFR. On the upside, I have NO reliable schedule for gaming due to work responsibilities so if I'm ever going to raid for the immediate future, it will be in LFR. So it's a blessing, albeit a blessing with some frayed edges.

    For Blizzard, it's more people doing more things and has opened up raiding for anyone that can get the gear together (even if some do it really badly) so it's an easy win for them.

  18. #378
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    (OP) Kazmo -

    Situation 1) pretend you're in a raiding guild, you do your clear/attempt for the week but you could run LFR to get some more gear to supplement what hasn't dropped for you in normal/heroic. In that situation, LFR does nothing but benefit you.

    LFD also does a very good job of distributing the types of dps so that you don't get a lot of competition on drops while doing what you are there to do, GEAR UP.

    You just have to look at the big picture and realize you wouldn't see all those people in the city if you were not there yourself.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazmodius View Post
    Hi, so just making this thread because I'm feeling concerned about how easy WoW is getting and how we can get geared so quickly nowaday. Also do you think it is what prevent players from going outside cities? So i'd like to know your opinion about if Blizzard should or shouldn't remove them.

    No hating comments please I just want players opinion.

    If you want my opinion, personally I hate those features, I've used them so much I know what I'm talking about. And I can only see how WoW is getting boring because everything is going so fast because of LFD and LFR.

    So Yes I think LFD should be removed for level caped players and Yes I think removing completely LFR will be a benefit.

    Thanks.
    erm , you complain about finding groups fast instead of having to spend hours finding a grp in trade , you never played before LFD did you ?
    the looking for group tool (pvp, dungeon and now raid) is easily the best feature added to wow.

  20. #380
    LFD/LFR are undoubtedly the best and worst things to happen to WoW.

    Pros:
    -Easier grouping for dungeons
    -Allows low level players to experience dungeons more often (especially dungeons on other continents!!!)
    -No longer have to go out of your way while questing to do a dungeon (IE, questing in duskwood and getting a group for RFK...have fun traveling there and back)

    Cons
    -Completely destroyed any sense of server community outside of the top guilds
    -100% anonymous, promoting ninjaing and griefing
    -100% anonymous, so you have no idea if the people in your group are good or terrible (relating to community being destroyed)

    LFD and LFR improved the game experience, but completely destroyed the social aspect of the game in the process and pretty much turned WoW into a lobby game at max level. They cannot be removed though. Now that they're in place and people are used to them, forcing people to go back to the old way would make them ragequit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Precursor View Post
    "Fall of therzane....." ....um what? if that woman fell , god help us it will be the second cataclysm
    Words that lots of people don't seem to know the definition of:
    "Troll", "Rehash", "Casual", "Dead", "Dying", "Exploit".

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