Which takes more skill: Rank 1 or World First?

[TJ]

That hardly matters. It's nice for the parses but you don't NEED world top damage to get world first kills.

Obviously you can't go slack 5k dps behind your potential. But by not min/maxing you might lose 500, at worst 1k dps. Which isnt going to cost you that kill.

Also, it is not hard to properly min/max at all. Any good player possesses that ability.

Ultraxion and Rag want a word.. keep using these examples but they don't seem to get recognized. Sure some bosses are lenient on dps but there are certain ones which push it. If it wasn't hard to min/max then everyone would have rank 1s, yet they don't..

[Shadzta]

i picked rank 1 because pve is a joke compared to pvp. pve is all the same thing over and over, everything is expected at "x" time and at "x" % of boss life. where as pvp anything can happen. pvp is unpredictable. well.... can be unpredictable.

Its people like you that I KNOW don't PvE top end, if you do its carried in a guild that has shit on farm months after content is relevant.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

According my calculations there is a 99,97% chance that 25
gladiator level players could easily compete in a race for world
first boss kill.

I mean the biggest challenges for PvE has always been finding the
25 decent and motivated players.

No, the hardest thing about raiding 25man is having stable raiders that can focus for more than 3minutes at a time. Trust me, any hardcore pvper would be bored fighting a 18minute long boss 70 times before they kill it.

In many cases a PvE're is a marathon runner, having to constantly adapt to things that happen. That's why PvE'rs are commonly known as "slow".
In the same way PvP'ers are sprinters, they are fast and furious, think insanely fast but they don't last very long. This is why pvp'er are said to have bat patience.

As to what I think is "harder" of one the two?
Well you ask, is it harder to dance with 3 people, 10 people or 25people. If you could set up a 25vs25 pvp event that would be a lot more difficult to handle than 3v3 would.

[Lysah]

The fact that there are arena players who can consistently go against the best teams in the world and crush them over and over and over...the top 1% of the top 1% in PvP don't actually have a lot of trouble being rank one.

As far as PvE goes, it's always anyone's game. You're not talking about downing a boss, you're talking about downing a boss FAST. And who knows when someone else is going to figure out flower power or saronite bombs.

As much as people will argue against it, PvP is actually incredibly predictable, because there is always a "best" move to make. Top players can predict enemy CCs, swaps, baits, they probably understand all of this without even thinking about it because they're so experienced it's become second nature to them.

[Evolixe]

Ultraxion and Rag want a word.. keep using these examples but they don't seem to get recognized. Sure some bosses are lenient on dps but there are certain ones which push it. If it wasn't hard to min/max then everyone would have rank 1s, yet they don't..

It's a little knowledge that you need to have, and a tiny bit of awareness which R1 players are full of. Apart from that you want to know when the best time is to buff a raid based on the situation etc. All of that comes quickly with a bit of experience.

[4KhazModan]

According my calculations there is a 99,97% chance that 25
gladiator level players could easily compete in a race for world
first boss kill.

I mean the biggest challenges for PvE has always been finding the
25 decent and motivated players.

Did it hurt when you pulled that out of your ass?

World first guilds have more than enough dedicated raiders. The challenge of world first comes with doing the fights before everybody else, while undergeared.

[TJ]

It's a little knowledge that you need to have, and a tiny bit of awareness which R1 players are full of. Apart from that you want to know when the best time is to buff a raid based on the situation etc. All of that comes quickly with a bit of experience.

Yet you seem to think it comes over night, if you haven't achieved them yourself then why talk as if you have and know what it takes?

PvP players won't walk into top end PvE just as PvErs won't walk into PvP. PvPers damn sure couldn't walk into world first, not in a million years since they would get obliterated by the top guilds, just as PvErs could nowhere near walk into glad in PvP since they would get dominated and probably played with by the best. Since I've been drawn into something I wanted to avoid, I'd like to just leave it at that since it's the bare truth.

[Raelbo]

You guys (well a bunch of you at any rate) still miss the point.

The question is not "Is PvE harder than PvP?". In fact it has nothing to do with how hard PvP is vs PvE. It is about being better at it than anyone else.

How "hard" is it to kick a football? Any idiot can kick a football. But that does not mean they are going to be the next Lionel Messi.

It's exactly the same in this debate. It doesn't matter if the content is easy enough to beat in a day, a month, or a year. The measure of how hard it is to do it first or best has entirely to do with how well other people can do the same thing. Which means, objectively, it is all about how good the competition is and how many of them you have to beat.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

That hardly matters. It's nice for the parses but you don't NEED world top damage to get world first kills.

Obviously you can't go slack 5k dps behind your potential. But by not min/maxing you might lose 500, at worst 1k dps. Which isnt going to cost you that kill.

Also, it is not hard to properly min/max at all. Any good player possesses that ability.

Take heroic spine of deathwing pre nerf, class stacking had to be used to kill it. Honestly if you don't understand the power of minmaxing on 15-20 dpsers you're ignorant.

If min/maxing gives you 1-2k more dps average on the average number of dpsers in a raid, lets say 17 then you stand to gain 17k-34k more dps. That's average dps for a whole fight, if a phase need more dps the burst dps with cds will go up 3times what it would without minmaxing.
For instance if you have 40k dps average (not hard at all) and you can minmax and bump that up to 42k dps average then in a 5 minute long fight like Ultraxion then ONE dpser will do another 600k damage, 17 dpsers would've done another 12.2m damage.

When progressing for world first you DON'T have the required gear, addons are very bugged and unaccurate and most importaint of all: it's new. PvP in cataclysm hasn't changed since it first came out, no major class changes has changed how you counter X class vs X class.
going off track there...

anyways, if you can gain 1-2k dps by minmaxing you alone will do close to 600k damage more over a 5minute long fight. I agree, that doesn't sound like a lot. But if you get 17 or more to do it then it's +/- 10million damage and guess what? during progression to world first where you don't have the "required" gear that blizzard tunes content for you NEED that extra 10million damage. This is also why guild will class stack for a class/spec that has a strong single target burst, aoe burst and so on.

[Evolixe]

Yet you seem to think it comes over night, if you haven't achieved them yourself then why talk as if you have and know what it takes?

PvP players won't walk into top end PvE just as PvErs won't walk into PvP. PvPers damn sure couldn't walk into world first, not in a million years since they would get obliterated by the top guilds, just as PvErs could nowhere near walk into glad in PvP since they would get dominated and probably played with by the best. Since I've been drawn into something I wanted to avoid, I'd like to just leave it at that since it's the bare truth.

I'm not a good example mate, you might want to pick someone that actually tries or has tried

Take heroic spine of deathwing pre nerf, class stacking had to be used to kill it. Honestly if you don't understand the power of minmaxing on 15-20 dpsers you're ignorant.

There is understanding, that is one thing. And there is need, that is another thing.
The latter is not needed. You are severely overestimating how those "top" players actually play.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

I'm not a good example mate, you might want to pick someone that actually tries or has tried



There is understanding, that is one thing. And there is need, that is another thing.
The latter is not needed. You are severely overestimating how those "top" players actually play.

If a boss requires you to do average 60k burst damage per player every 1.5minutes 6 times and you're only able to do 58k burst damage every 1.5 minutes 6 times, guess what? You need to min/max and/or class stack, many specs have shit burst which then again puts more responsibility on other dps in the raid.
You're wrong that class stacking and min/maxing in during world first progression isn't needed.

[Deleted]

I think the question should've revolved around individual skill (or explicitly not)

It's obviously harder to organize 25 World First players than 3 rank 1 players. Just because the problems due to DCs and whatever else.

In terms of, would it be easier for 25 players of my skill to get World First, or 3 players of my skill to get rank 1? Definitely rank 1 would be harder.

(Also we're talking about rank 1 in the WORLD right? not just server rank 1, which would be comparable to server first pve)

[worsthitmanNa]

Not really mayo, azael, talbadar, and other dont use addons at all. I think hoodrych doesn't either same as novoz. Addons help but you don't need them for heroic bosses my guild made me get dmb. When we were doing heoric icc even thou i wasn't the one messing up. My computer sucks atm so can't do heroic raiding, I want those op weapons . Their wasn't anything outside of the standard ui, I needed while raiding and those world first guilds could get world first without addons. They just make life easier so there used. Blizzard could ban addons tommorow and a ton of people would just adjust over a couple weeks or couple hundred wipes.

[jonte912]

rank 1 and world first aren't really in the same category (not talking PvP/PvE)

if you're going to compare it, compare 1st place in tournaments(best in the world) vs world first, in which case, 1st in tournament(best in the world) takes WAAAAY more skills

[worsthitmanNa]

Well, I think you should compare getting rank 1 to world first on the toughest battlegroup in world. I personally think rank 1 iss harder, but thats just me.

[zloitima]

I voted for world first just because the very last bosses are usually, if not always, overtuned in the beginning, and then get slight nerfes before or after world first happens

[Deleted]

Pure skill i will say rank 1. But if you take into account the team work and dedication world first take it is realy hard to say. just because in one there is 2 other you have to work with. and for world first there is 24 others

---------- Post added 2012-05-03 at 06:56 PM ----------

Uhh Also it is hard to say realy depents on the raid

[Warwithin]

Rank 1 no doubt.

[dockers]

I haven't accomplished either feat, so I'm not entirely sure. All I know is, there are alot less world first people (25) per patch than rank 1 players (8 per battlegroup) out there.

[gnomemonster]

Rank 1, because it is something you have to maintain, and is skill based on that is constantly changing. World first is a good feat, but it is just a matter of having better gear at some point or another.

You are on the same track as me. A world first is just doing something "first." It does not mean that you necessarily have more skill than other players. You just did it first. You may have had more time to play when the content came available. World first events are also scripted.

Rank 1 takes time, skill, work. You need to be good at playing the game. You need to know your class and optimize your ability to adjust to whatever situation arises. Rank 1 is achieved by being able to dynamically think.

Dynamic skill > scripted skill any day.

People with higher Rank totally get more respect than World Firsts.


I have my money on World First "winning" because more people seem to raid than PVP. I may be wrong, but it is easier, so it makes sense to me.