Masteries gimped

[A dot Ham]

This may just be my play style, but I feel like tank/utility mastery are far less efficient than straight damage mastery.

Ultimately the greatest stat multiplier is how you itemize your champion.

I feel like the extra boost in damage is far more efficient than poor/mediocre damage reduction of tank (even as a tanking champion), or the utilities of utility.

What are your thoughts?

[Xanjori]

Who are we talking here? I mean for a tank the tank masteries are fine, for a support the utility masteries are fine, for a DPS the Offence tree is fine. Theyre tailored to each role.

[Liquephyre]

Papers fine, nurf rock; says scissors.

[Deleted]

I usually play with at least magic pen or armor pen in my builds, unless I'm support.

[Deleted]

Tbh Defense used to be crap, now it's pretty damn awesome and nearly every tank/bruiser/tanky jungler uses it. All my supports use 9 in defense too.

[A dot Ham]

Who are we talking here? I mean for a tank the tank masteries are fine, for a support the utility masteries are fine, for a DPS the Offence tree is fine. Theyre tailored to each role.

I have 2 tanks

Cho and Alistar

I feel like I do infinitely better if I can actually do a little dmg which tends to make an enemy a little less aggressive if they are losing decent amounts of hp. (DPS mastery)

On the flip side in the same situation, the dps loss =/= the dmg reduction gained from using tank mastery. So i'm not doing enough dmg to get an enemy to back off, and I'm not reducing enough dmg for the same enemy to go "man that guy aint gonna die".

Then there is nasus... who (i guess the community views as a tank) even though his description fighter pusher melee. who you can build like a tank but isn't a tank.

In a team fight if you can kill an enemy, you are effectively reducing incoming damage by 1/5 or 1/3. Without a dps mastery, I can't pull off those kills as easily, and I don't see a significant enough dmg reduction, and nowhere near the 1/5 or 1/3 mark.

*edit* I just bought Cho this week, and when I looked up Nasus' description noticed that Cho isn't technically a tank either.

[Toxigen]

Tbh Defense used to be crap, now it's pretty damn awesome and nearly every tank/bruiser/tanky jungler uses it. All my supports use 9 in defense too.

Except for Teemo. The old Defense tree was sick nasty for that little bugger.

[Duilliath]

It's a team game. As a tank, you are not there to take out the opposing team. You are there to let your carries do that job. If you want to obliterate people, roll something that isn't tanking.

[Axethor]

Very few champs are a "tank" if you follow Riots classifications. Hell, every top tier jungler minus Skarner doesn't have the jungler tag. Their champ classifications leave much to be desired.

That said, the defensive masteries are awesome. On the flip side of things, while offensive masteries make it easier to kill someone, that someone may have defensive masteries and since you have none you are just as easy to kill for them.

If you like the offensive tree, I suggest sticking to offensive junglers, AD and AP Carries, and select few offensive solo top champs. Cho, Nasus, Alistair, and any other tank character should be using defensive masteries or you can't do your job as affectively late game (the scaling masteries are quite powerful).

[Xorious]

Because Offense is purely aimed at increasing your damage and defense/utility has additional gimmicks such as cd reduction, movement speed, regen, cc reduction, not just decreasing dmg taking.

[cherb]

Then there is nasus... who (i guess the community views as a tank) even though his description fighter pusher melee.

*edit* I just bought Cho this week, and when I looked up Nasus' description noticed that Cho isn't technically a tank either.

Riot's descriptions also say Morgana, Orianna, Lux, and Teemo are supports, when they are best built other ways. Reminds me of the time a Shaco on my team built Madreds and Guinsoos instead of IE because "they are on my rec item list stfu i'll listen to riot"

[Duilliath]

Just saw a Teemo support in a ranked game, together with an Ashe. Worked pretty well.

[Deleted]

Every solo top tank, jungler i play, use defensive masteries with arp or mp in offense. Every Support must be utility. Also it is good to go utility as a Ryze.

[Xorious]

Every solo top tank, jungler i play, use defensive masteries with arp or mp in offense. Every Support must be utility. Also it is good to go utility as a Ryze.

Some jungle champions prefer putting the 9 extra points in utility to get the buff boost and speed increase or mana increase, and ofcourse the flash cd reduction.

[Deleted]

Every solo top tank, jungler i play, use defensive masteries with arp or mp in offense. Every Support must be utility. Also it is good to go utility as a Ryze.

Erm no, supports like Alistar or a Leona can be defense without any problems. They're the INYOURFACE supports so having no defense or initiation or whatever kinda sucks. That + the extra armor, health etc. is just to good to pass on.

[A dot Ham]

It's a team game. As a tank, you are not there to take out the opposing team. You are there to let your carries do that job. If you want to obliterate people, roll something that isn't tanking.

Didn't get the point of the post...

I don't know if your inability to read... or my inability to explain.

[Duilliath]

That was in response to this bit:

In a team fight if you can kill an enemy, you are effectively reducing incoming damage by 1/5 or 1/3. Without a dps mastery, I can't pull off those kills as easily, and I don't see a significant enough dmg reduction, and nowhere near the 1/5 or 1/3 mark.

Again, if you are there to tank, you're not there to get the kills. You're not brought for your DPS, you're brought for your control. Even so, Cho'gath chomping down for a crapton of true damage will *always* hurt, no matter what you build on him.

You set up kills (through CC, particularly so with Alistar) or you peel off the people doing the damage. That's your job as a tank. If you want to kill stuff, roll a carry instead. By setting up kills for your carries, you will be in the thick of things, in which case the defensive masteries will help you stay alive a whole lot more than the Offensive tree will ever do for you.

[A dot Ham]

That was in response to this bit:



Again, if you are there to tank, you're not there to get the kills. You're not brought for your DPS, you're brought for your control. Even so, Cho'gath chomping down for a crapton of true damage will *always* hurt, no matter what you build on him.

You set up kills (through CC, particularly so with Alistar) or you peel off the people doing the damage. That's your job as a tank. If you want to kill stuff, roll a carry instead. By setting up kills for your carries, you will be in the thick of things, in which case the defensive masteries will help you stay alive a whole lot more than the Offensive tree will ever do for you.

And what I'm saying is, is that the little bit of extra dps I bring to the table by using a dps mastery vs the tank/dmg reduction (even though I've built as a tank) is far more effective than.

I'm not talking about receiving the KB... i'm talking about either team getting that first kill which usually is the determinant factor in winning a team battle.

You're getting tunnel vision.

[Duilliath]

No, you are. Again, your damage is pitiful with or without those masteries. You won't be building full on damage on those chars unless you are not building them as tank anyway, in which case this whole discussion is moot. 10% extra of bugger all is still bugger all. But building damage on them means they will blow you up and then destroy your AD. Your job is to stay alive as long as possible and disrupt as much as possible so that your AD and AP can clear up the mess. Adding 5 more damage is not going to change anything. Not getting blown up as soon as you show your face will.

//edit: Know what this reminds me of a bit? Those Titan Grip Fury Warriors claiming they tank better because they do more damage and thus the boss will die that much faster. Same logic.

[A dot Ham]

I would say in ANY team fight, any party members job is to:

(1) Get at least 1+ kill on enemy team
(2) While simultaneously keeping themselves alive + others alive

as a tank you have the unique ability to absorb more damage due to the high hp and supposed mastery build. So you act as a buffer and/or someone else to target while other people do work.

What I am saying is that I am not seeing a significant damage reduction or survivability to make it worth using... the tank masteries.

What I am seeing is that by doing that extra damage while simultaneously taking little damage do in part to my build not masteries, makes people play a little less aggressive, because "Wow that guy takes no damage and hits like a truck."

---------- Post added 2012-05-09 at 02:02 PM ----------

Furthermore... while this is harder to perceive in a team fight... its REALLY prevalent in a 1v1 situation.

The heart of the matter is that the Damage from dps mastery =/= damage reduction from tank mastery.