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  1. #1
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Do people really think warcraft is about good humans vs bad orcs?

    I've been seeing a lot of posts lately from people and there opinions about the story structure in warcraft. Some see it from both sides, others take a more bias look at the story but still keep a broad mind despite it. And then there are others who are so held on there belief to certain concepts of the story they can't see it any other way.

    The main theme I'm regarding are those that honestly believe warcraft's story is about white human knights battling evil malformed orcs to certain victory, because they feel like the holier then thou good guys. This is so much so that when blizzard directs the story that these humans lose to the orcs, and orcs even do heroic things, these same people are lost for words by this.

    What I can't fathom is how can people be playing this game and not even regard the story in a wider sense of what it does. Warcraft manages to actully develop a story on two fronts, where both sides can be accused of doing noble acts of heroism, and others who act in malice to the other. Yet certain people can only see it, almost like from a lord of the rings perspective of good humans fighting evil orcs.

    So many recent whining from alliance players, well perhaps justified in some points of the hordes story more focused in cata, seems to just go overboard for some players who think blizzard isn't doing enough to emphasize there belief in the alliance being seen as the goodie good guys, and I just find this baffling, since it suggests such people don't pay attention to the extensive lore.
    Infact, I would say the mistake blizzard is doing is not emphasizing enough of the alliance commiting war crimes against the horde to balance the real issue of war. Perhaps this is set to change in pandaria, so far theres not been much to suggest otherwise.

  2. #2
    Death to the green skins!
    Every man is born as many men and dies as a single one

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  3. #3
    Well, to be fair to the people who believe it, the horde is currently employing slave labour, racism and chemical warfare. I think that if I was playing through world of warcraft's human, forsaken or night elf starting zones and didn't play the previous games, I'd probably think the horde was evil too. While additional reading removes the problem, most people are just here to play a game.
    A look at the warcraft novels, RPG books, games and magical french space soccer.

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  4. #4
    Field Marshal Lomanoft's Avatar
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    I kind of liked the addition at the end of the Goblin scenario. The cinematic shows you fleeing Kezan - Your character is being transported on a SLAVE ship to Kalimdor for Galleywax (who, I still should be hunted down by the prior slaves, in stead of hanging out in a resort type home in Azshara) the goblins come upon a battle between the Alliance and Horde ships.

    Crew Member: "Captain, who are they?"
    Captain: "It doesn't matter. Our orders are to capture the Horde target at all costs." "No witnesses."

    Let me get this straight. You don't know who it is but you attack? Yeah...ok...good guys...

    On the other hand, it also pointed out that Goblins are being sold as slaves in Kalimdor. Could be to the horde but, most likely not.
    Last edited by Lomanoft; 2012-05-03 at 02:04 AM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Lomanoft View Post
    Crew Member: "Captain, who are they?"
    Captain: "It doesn't matter. Our orders are to capture the Horde target at all costs." "No witnesses."

    Let me get this straight. You don't know who it is but you attack? Yeah...ok...good guys...
    Yes, because the real life CIA or other intelligence organizations totally would never kill or indefinitely detain someone who witnessed them performing an act that would spark a huge international incident if information about it got out. They'd just let you walk away, and give you a lollipop even.

    It's not good or evil, it's just realistic.

  6. #6
    Yes the Orc's are bad, their is a big doorway which allows them to leave the human world in peace yet the Orc's still stay in the human world fighting the inhabitants for natural resources.

    I mean honestly Nagrand > Durotar

  7. #7
    Nagrand (and the rest of Outland) are also falling apart and any minute now will crumble into nothing.

    To be honest I wish the Horde WERE more evil. When I started in 2004 I began as an Undead because I wanted to be the bad guys. Forsaken are still as close as you can get.

  8. #8
    It's because that's how the RTS started out as - Good humans Vs Bad Orcs.

    It was originally meant to be a Warhammer game, but Games Workshop denied to license it (Ooops!) and so they published it as a separate game.

    I think most people who first entered the WoW universe via Vanilla and never played the RTSes have a different opinion of the Orcs vs how they were portrayed from WCI > III. It wasn't until WCIII that there was a "good side" of Orcs emerging/being discovered.

    Don't blame the people... blame Metzen for trying to ressurect the "Orcs vs Humans" ideology from the RTS days. Remember, lots of players just repeat what Blue Posters say - so "Orcs vs Humans" is being tauted right now because that's what Pappa Metzen has said about Pandaria.

    You got to remember in Warcraft I and II - the orcs WERE the bad guys. They didn't add in the backstory of the legion, the Orc's corruption and all that until WCIII (if my research is to be believed. Please correct me if I'm wrong...)

    Those of us in today's generation who came into the story later believe differently - as we didn't have an entire backstory re-written for us and saw the Orcs as they are in Vanilla > Wrath...

    ...Cata really didn't help their image though. Again, blame Metzen for that. =/
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

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  9. #9
    Honestly, in Cataclysm the orcs are pretty much the bad guys (aside from the forsaken). The Alliance didn't really have that "we do bad things too" throughout the cataclysm questing, it was more just cleaning up the hordes destruction or cleansing things or saving animals. I mean the alliance actual spare the city of Stonard after taking out the military threat, and the night elves help the Taruen take back freewind post.

    I think you need to blame the lore writers for not really making it shades of grey like most people are use to from vanilla to wotlk.

  10. #10
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    This does seem to be the mindset for people who don't bother reading quests, never played the older games, or don't bother reading up on the lore. I know two people who have played for about 4 years but don't bother with any of the story line. They don't understand the raids or the bosses within them.

    They both play Horde. It's understandable when someone who has never played WoW or any Warcraft game, refer to the Orcs as "The Evil Side". But these two have played for years and still say "I enjoy playing the bad side". They don't understand that there is no good or evil between the Horde & Alliance, it's all politics. I've even tried explaining it, but they don't understand. It's frustrating sometimes, but if they're happy just running around killing things without any regard for why they're doing it, then that's their business.

    I personally never played any previous Warcraft games before WoW, but I enjoy story lines. So whenever I found events or characters I didnt understand, I would read up their background.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Lomanoft View Post
    I kind of liked the addition at the end of the Goblin scenario. The cinematic shows you fleeing Kezan - Your character is being transported on a SLAVE ship to Kalimdor for Galleywax (who, I still should be hunted down by the prior slaves, in stead of hanging out in a resort type home in Azshara) the goblins come upon a battle between the Alliance and Horde ships.

    Crew Member: "Captain, who are they?"
    Captain: "It doesn't matter. Our orders are to capture the Horde target at all costs." "No witnesses."

    Let me get this straight. You don't know who it is but you attack? Yeah...ok...good guys...

    On the other hand, it also pointed out that Goblins are being sold as slaves in Kalimdor. Could be to the horde but, most likely not.
    Im going to counter your point with another point. In the Panda starting area, toward the end you have to choose the faction you want to play as. You have to meet representatives of the ideals of each faction. The alliance rep is good and honorable, the horde rep is feral and crazy.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-03 at 02:44 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by TranceZiggy View Post
    This does seem to be the mindset for people who don't bother reading quests, never played the older games, or don't bother reading up on the lore. I know two people who have played for about 4 years but don't bother with any of the story line. They don't understand the raids or the bosses within them.

    They both play Horde. It's understandable when someone who has never played WoW or any Warcraft game, refer to the Orcs as "The Evil Side". But these two have played for years and still say "I enjoy playing the bad side". They don't understand that there is no good or evil between the Horde & Alliance, it's all politics. I've even tried explaining it, but they don't understand. It's frustrating sometimes, but if they're happy just running around killing things without any regard for why they're doing it, then that's their business.

    I personally never played any previous Warcraft games before WoW, but I enjoy story lines. So whenever I found events or characters I didnt understand, I would read up their background.
    The Alabaster Parapets of Lordaeron loom in the distance... in the RTS games the Horde were always the bad/evil side. Then with WoW they decided to try to balance it, so they had Thrall being the good guy. But Garrosh is the backsliding to the evil horde of the RTS games.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    You got to remember in Warcraft I and II - the orcs WERE the bad guys. They didn't add in the backstory of the legion, the Orc's corruption and all that until WCIII (if my research is to be believed. Please correct me if I'm wrong...)
    This poster has nailed it perfectly. For those of us who played the RTS games first, particularly from the start, it was painfully clear that the orcs WERE the bad guys until war3, when they begain building the mmo storyline.

    Heck, go watch the war2 intro, and try to claim that the horde were good too.

  13. #13
    OP is right that there are two stories being deveioped on two different fronts.

    It's just that Thrall (and his orcs) are the spitting image of the Noble Savage, A type of character that appeared heavily in 19th century literature who is a godless heathen that can still teach us much about ... being noble, or ... liking nature... or some such crap. (See "Last of the Mohicans" for a prime example of this). I'm not sure what Horde fans really think of Thrall. I know Chris Metzen is clearly in love with his creation, but Thrall and this orc nobility doesn't ring for me. It's Snoresville at best, and it seems like lazy writing at other times.

    (on a similar sort of note. I hate hate hated the Thrall and Aggra romance. The basic story of how Thrall's deepest desire is to settle down, have a baby orc or two, and stop doing anything that made him interesting in the first place-- didn't that feel like the end of every action movie you ever saw? Whether it's John McClane calling up Holly so they can try again, Keanu snogging with Sandra Bullock, or every other action star breathing a deep sigh of relief while hugging his spawn. We've seen all this before.)

    After that, you get the aberrations against nature known as the Forsaken, the moral emptiness of the Blood Elves, the corrupt capitalism of the goblins, this historical dubiousness of the trolls, and I begin to wonder why the tauren are hanging around with all these people.

    I don't think Alliance are goody-two-shoes, and that's not a gripe I'd make as an Alliance player. I do absolutely loathe being as ineffectual as Metzen and the gang has written the Alliance to be. Last time the Alliance really had a good solid win was Warcraft II, in a fight where Turalyon overcame his moral dubiousness about fighting the Horde by asserting that the orcs are essentially alien invaders and should have no place in nature or in Azeroth. That's not goody-two-shoes. That's kinda xenophobic and brutal, but it's strong and the kind of Alliance I wish we had now.

  14. #14
    Field Marshal Lomanoft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neccowafer View Post
    Yes, because the real life CIA or other intelligence organizations totally would never kill or indefinitely detain someone who witnessed them performing an act that would spark a huge international incident if information about it got out. They'd just let you walk away, and give you a lollipop even.

    It's not good or evil, it's just realistic.
    Obviously, an Alliance player. You completely failed to see the point of my post all together. I pointed out view from both sides. As I have played both, all the way through.
    And as far as the "shoot first and ask questions later", I beg to differ. It was an unidentified craft, could have been Steamwheedle. Even if it was a ship from the Cartel, it sure could have been chalked up as an attack from Bloodsail or Soutsea pirates. Because we all know there have never been any quests where you go in and identify ammunition as alliance or horde (see the quest [Gunship Down] in Deepholm). And we also know that one can never find wreckage at the bottom of the ocean (see all of Vashj'ir)... The point is, that in that situation, in the fog, it could have even been another Alliance vessel. They did no investigating what-so-ever.
    This scene was to be a bold statement. The entire thing seemed rushed, if not poorly written.
    This isn't real life. if it was to be realistic to WoW standards, it would have become a quest to investigate. lol
    Last edited by Lomanoft; 2012-05-03 at 03:52 AM.

  15. #15
    The original Warcraft was basically just Evil Orcs and Good Humans (in fact the Orcs were actually supposed to be fighting for hell. It had a much more Diablo-esque tone, really.

    Ever since Warcraft 2 and especially 3 the story expanded a LOT and it's now more about just force vs. force with neither being particularly evil or good.

  16. #16
    Field Marshal Lomanoft's Avatar
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    I wish the Orcs were more evil.

    But then, I just like to argue. lol

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Lomanoft View Post
    Obviously, an Alliance player. You completely failed to see the point of my post all together. I pointed out view from both sides. As I have played both, all the way through.
    And as far as the "shoot first and ask questions later", I beg to differ. It was an unidentified craft, could have been Steamwheedle. Even if it was a ship from the Cartel, it sure could have been chalked up as an attack from Bloodsail or Soutsea pirates. Because we all know there have never been any quests where you go in and identify ammunition as alliance or horde (see the quest [Gunship Down] in Deepholm). And we also know that one can never find wreckage at the bottom of the ocean (see all of Vashj'ir)... The point is, that in that situation, in the fog, it could have even been another Alliance vessel. They did no investigating what-so-ever. This scene was to be a bold statement. The entire thing seemed rushed, if not poorly written. This isn't real life. if it was to be realistic to WoW standards, it would have become a quest to investigate. lol
    Actually I play both factions, and don't look at the world as black and white "good" and "evil."
    Both factions have reasons to do things. Those reasons are rarely blatantly "good" or "evil" but are generally serving a purpose. If you're in the military and your superior officer gives you the order "leave no witnesses," you uh, leave no witnesses. Or you can defy orders and get dishonorably discharged, court-martial case... at best. If you know sensitive information and disobey direct orders I can see you being detained for basically forever just to prevent you from running out and telling everyone everything. Sure the scene was rushed and the story is never really expanded on. It isn't a quest to investigate because neither horde nor alliance have any quests related to the event, and sure there is wreckage, but it's not in an area we are currently exploring with great interest and the incident will be a distant memory by the time it is. But evil? Good? I can see why they'd do it. Just self-serving. Which is human (and orc, and all races') nature. If their goal is to grab Thrall (for whatever reason, it's never explained but I can assume there is one besides BWA HA HA EVIL) and get out of there without anyone knowing where they are, it'd be catastrophic for a passing ship to see the commotion and send out a scout to spread the info. It only takes someone 5 seconds to jump on their flying mount of choice and be off to the mainland with information about the exact location, number, and type of Alliance ships in the area. Morally fuzzy? Sure. Everything is war is morally fuzzy. You're killing people. There's no way that's even solely an act of good, nor is it solely an act of evil.

    Similarly the horde isn't "evil" for logging Ashenvale heavily, despite the potentially terrible environmental effects, or even "evil" for destroying Theramore and killing a bunch of civilians. There are reasons, they may not be acceptable reasons to everyone, but evil (to me) means just being mean and nasty for the sake of being mean and nasty, it conjures up images of poorly developed cartoon villains. A real story needs more to it than "*grunt* him evil *grunt* go kill." Real enemies have reasons, and the best enemies have reasons you could even sympathize with. We still don't know exactly what triggers the attack on Theramore, for example, but I think it'll probably turn out to be a morally ambiguous decision rather than RAWR EVIL WE ORC KILL *bloodlust noise*.

  18. #18
    Completely boils down to Old Horde vs. New Horde.

    Horde under Garrosh is acting more like the Old Horde, hence the confusion...

  19. #19
    The Horde has always been the bad guys

    It's just not black and white. Both sides have "good" people, and "bad" people, but at the end of the day, it's the Orcs who blindly followed their leaders, who willfully allied with demons, invaded the Human planet, and proceeded to wipe them out

    Like most stories, the ones defending themselves are the good guys, and the ones who attacked them are the bad guys
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  20. #20
    People who don't care about a good story only want to see a good side they can root for and a bad side they can kill.

    So yes, a lot of people do.

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