Rogues - Reliance on COOL DOWNS to compete?

[Medjumurac]

So was recently thinking of starting up a Rogue. I've never gotten one above ~40 before but thought I'd give it a go in time for the expansion.

The one thing that turned me off the class is it's apparent reliance on Cool Downs. Keep in mind, I'm not sure about the validity of this, that's why I'm asking in the first place. But from what I can see, without any cool downs active, you're next-to-screwed as a rogue. Vanish, CoS and Blind are a few examples (excluding ones like Combat Readiness, Dismantle, etc) that look essential to being viable in a fight in, as an example, a BG.

And even if you do have them all up, you're going to end up blowing them all to kill that pesky Hunter, only to have nothing left up your sleeve to best the [insert class] who's coming up the hill. I'm not implying that taking on two consecutive enemies at once should be a piece of cake for a rogue, but at least I'd have a chance. On my lock or shaman, I rarely actually have to use a cool down. Things like death coil I'd only need in a 2v1 situation, unlike CoS for example which is necessary ALL the time.

Like I said though, I might be completely wrong about this. What I"m looking for is someone to confirm it. Are rogues really that cool down dependent. Do you view having cool downs up during PvP essential or just a bonus?

[Verain]

It depends on what you want.

Versus an equally geared opponent, I'm sure your shaman either has to blow cooldowns or die. I say this because I don't think there's any shaman I can't 1v1 on my rogue if I'm specced sub and have all my CDs- maybe a resto sham could escape or something, or an ele could be a big problem depending on terrain.

Versus less geared or bad opponents, yes, a rogue is a pretty poor choice, compared to other classes you could bring to that situation. In a battleground, there's plenty of people I crush out of stealth, and the longest CD I use is kidney. Put a couple mediocre players into that situation and things get harder.


So yes, rogues are cooldown reliant, and aren't the best class when you have a great rogue versus multiple bad players- other classes can do better there. But if your shaman doesn't need cooldowns to get kills, then your rogue won't need many either.

[Deleted]

Yes, they are very cooldown dependant. A hunter or a mage opened on you and you don't have CDs? You'll die.

But that's the beauty of the class, to learn when and how to use all the CDs.

[Nyaldee]

Cooldawn management matters for rogue a lot, but same can be said about many classes - like how dk have to handle IBF/trinket/IMS to survive preped bomb, how ret should time his wings to avoid them getting instantly dispelled, how hunters manage their readiness. If you're talking 1v1 then rogue is #1 class to both escape gank and choose their fight. If you're talking about team pvp setting then you've healer to rely on, so you're not really useless outside of cds, but like any other class you can mismanage your cooldawns and fail at surviving or landing a kill.

[Deleted]

Learn that there's a whole lot of abilities/cd's to use and when to use em and not blowing em all instantly.

[asharia]

Yes, but they are so strong you will not feel like you cannot be effective without all of them.

[Medjumurac]

Learn that there's a whole lot of abilities/cd's to use and when to use em and not blowing em all instantly.

I'm not sure if this is still valid, but one thing that was consistent across feedback I get from Rogues regarding PvP that "re-opening" is essential in almost any fight. Of course, re-opening requires Vanish and often CoS. Meaning that even if you're Sub, you can only do this every 2 minutes.

I guess if that's part of the class there's nothing I can do. I'll still give it a shot because I'm not exactly losing anything. And I also understand that CD management is part of the class. It just feels a little too integral next to the other classes.

[Digori]

I'm not sure if this is still valid, but one thing that was consistent across feedback I get from Rogues regarding PvP that "re-opening" is essential in almost any fight. Of course, re-opening requires Vanish and often CoS. Meaning that even if you're Sub, you can only do this every 2 minutes.

I guess if that's part of the class there's nothing I can do. I'll still give it a shot because I'm not exactly losing anything. And I also understand that CD management is part of the class. It just feels a little too integral next to the other classes.

blind and gouge are also usable to get that second open. gouge normally used with sprint to gap them long enough to get ooc. least thats how i did it in my day, havent pvped much on rogue since end of bc.

[Evolixe]

Distribute your cooldowns more carefully. Regardless of what other people tell you, blowing multiple cooldowns at once is not the right approach to a fight.

I've been playing this class for so long now it really goes naturally for me. I just always have something availeble.

Oh and if you like doing BG's.. don't blow cooldowns when those aren't going to have impact. Like when you are about to die and have no chance of killing anything.. blowing a cloak of shadows while there are also melees around really is only going to work against you when you resurrect.

[Wayne25uk]

If you play your rogue properly like i do your cooldowns can actually work FOR you instead of AGAINST you,and they arent on cooldown for that long to be honest and they can easily be refreshed with talents and certain moves,but the major point i can give is that if your good enough you wont need to worry about cooldowns because your enemy should already be dead....

[Bigbamboozal]

You know, most classes ARE about the cd's. I think it would actually be faster to list the classes that AREN'T cd bound.
Maybe your afflic lock wasn't, but you know you'd be if you rolled demo, and if an enhance shaman isn't a cd god with puppies, hero/lust, burny and the stoner, I don't know what is.
I suppose some specs of classes play out differently or just have more sustained ability, but i think it's hardly a stretch to say that every-bloody-body is better with their cd's up, and more or less hooped with them down.

[Matutin]

What im about to say in this topic will probably infuriate a few dedicated pvpers. Im currently 408 ilvl on my rogue (pve), and i helped a few guildys the other day in some bgs without a single pvp piece and i must confess that i really liked it.
Letting mages aside, most of the times i only had to use a full kidney to get a kill. Maybe ShD if its a healer, or CoS for a lock or Dismantle for a DK, but that's probably because i pull an insane burst on undergeared ppl.
Idk, my strat is to pull as much burst as I can during the kidney to see check the other guy gear and if i see a high amount of resi, then i've to use another strat and blow CDs... But for most of the kills i didnt use a major cd.

Edit: Funny thing, i got my syg from a few months now and totally forgot about it. Now that im doing a bit of pvp i can understand it lol

[Evolixe]

What im about to say in this topic will probably infuriate a few dedicated pvpers. Im currently 408 ilvl on my rogue (pve), and i helped a few guildys the other day in some bgs without a single pvp piece and i must confess that i really liked it.
Letting mages aside, most of the times i only had to use a full kidney to get a kill. Maybe ShD if its a healer, or CoS for a lock or Dismantle for a DK, but that's probably because i pull an insane burst on undergeared ppl.
Idk, my strat is to pull as much burst as I can during the kidney to see check the other guy gear and if i see a high amount of resi, then i've to use another strat and blow CDs... But for most of the kills i didnt use a major cd.

Edit: Funny thing, i got my syg from a few months now and totally forgot about it. Now that im doing a bit of pvp i can understand it lol

Fact is that you can't possebly compare that to regular pvp, or arena at all

[Verain]

What im about to say in this topic will probably infuriate a few dedicated pvpers. Im currently 408 ilvl on my any dps spec in the game (pve), and i helped a few guildys the other day in some bgs without a single pvp piece and i must confess that i really liked it.

fixt4U!

So, regular BGs are a funny thing. In the olden days, everyone had to BG to get their gear- you might need to BG to get some bracers, or boots. So you would often end up seeing people in really strong gear with really strong skill, who had an incentive to show up and play.

Currently, that isn't the case. This is not to say that good geared players don't show up in BGs, but quite honestly, with the advent of rated BGs and the lack of requirement to get the best pvp gear from reg BGs (on any piece at all), I see a lot less.

If you went against an item level 400 pvper, you would not find your task so trivial. In 0 resi, if you were set upon by an item level 390 pvper, you'd be hurting rather seriously, even though you could also put a good dent in them. As a rogue in a BG, you are essentially an environmental hazard, like lightning, or a wild mountain lion- no one sees you coming, you can wreck someone's day, but once they are prepared you aren't much threat alone.


But my overall point is- if you walk into a regmode BG with a stack of 403 pvp gear or 410 pve gear, you are going to wreck face, because a lot of those folks will be there trying to earn the 390 gear that they need to compete in arenas or rateds and get the 403 gear that they want to excel at those tasks. This means that at 408, you likely have 25 to 35 item levels on them- because even though they can get 390 from BGs, if they had full 390 they wouldn't be there still.

[khatsoo]

I'm not sure if this is still valid, but one thing that was consistent across feedback I get from Rogues regarding PvP that "re-opening" is essential in almost any fight. Of course, re-opening requires Vanish and often CoS. Meaning that even if you're Sub, you can only do this every 2 minutes.

I guess if that's part of the class there's nothing I can do. I'll still give it a shot because I'm not exactly losing anything. And I also understand that CD management is part of the class. It just feels a little too integral next to the other classes.

Re-opening can be done in other ways. Gouging a snared target and running away, kiting in someway and staying 5 sec outside combat, blind, a mage that iceblocks and let it last the full duration, etc. not only depends on vanishing.

[Evolixe]

But my overall point is- if you walk into a regmode BG with a stack of 403 pvp gear or 410 pve gear, you are going to wreck face, because a lot of those folks will be there trying to earn the 390 gear that they need to compete in arenas or rateds and get the 403 gear that they want to excel at those tasks. This means that at 408, you likely have 25 to 35 item levels on them- because even though they can get 390 from BGs, if they had full 390 they wouldn't be there still.

Tbh, i see more decently/full geared people than people without gear at all in there really.