1. #3021
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurluas View Post
    No it isn't, the Elder Scrolls games are RPGs by default, if they truly wanted, they could easily turn them into an MMO, without giving in to the so called genre and make a generic wow clone with a few differences.

    MMORPG is simply an RPG with a lot of people.
    Has they gone Sandbox instead of Themepark, it would almost be identical to Elder Scrolls.
    The analogy is right. People do not understand this is an MMO, they strife to complain that it's far from the SP. But that IS how it's supposed to be. Bethesda will continue developing SP games, and Zenimax will be keeping up the online game. I don't see -any- reason to think of this like TES6,7,8 etc.
    So you're saying you want Skyrim-multiplayer?

  2. #3022
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerevar View Post
    The analogy is right. People do not understand this is an MMO, they strife to complain that it's far from the SP. But that IS how it's supposed to be. Bethesda will continue developing SP games, and Zenimax will be keeping up the online game. I don't see -any- reason to think of this like TES6,7,8 etc.
    So you're saying you want Skyrim-multiplayer?
    No because that model wouldn't work, but imagine this...You were free to choose what factions to join, you could go anywhere in the world, you could get an instanced house, like in skyrim, pvp would depend on which faction you joined not on your race, the economy was entirely player controlled, you could use first person, combat was similar to skyrim except for the skill bar, you could find loot to decorate your house, the world would be alive as it was in Skyrim, quests would not exist, not directly. But instead, dynamic events would happen, such as a village being attacked by bandits and so on, and if you helped you would be rewarded, the plot would instead advance through dungeons, who would behave similar to wow, but the open world would essentially be a Sandbox, and then you could get jobs to earn money, or be a mercenary, or a thief, or a mugger etc.

    That is how an TES MMO should have been, not Themepark, but Sandbox.
    Look at Star Wars Galaxies before the CU, it was a perfect example of a sandbox, no quests, free roam, player made economy, no levels but skills earned through combat, player made cities, etc.

    Themepark MMOs are everywhere, and I am SO sick of em.
    Swtor, Rift, Guild Wars 2, Wow, LOTRO, etc. They are almost all copies and clones of each other.
    I wish more Sandbox ones would come out, and a TES MMO should definitely have been sandbox.

    People have gotten the wrong idea that all MMOs have to be Themepark MMOs and Wow clones, but they DON'T!
    I blame WOW, the epitomy of Themepark boredom...Dailies, mindless grind quests, reputation grinds and so on.
    And in the end, you realize it mattered nothing, because you are just the nameless adventurer no matter what, and even all your progress will be wiped as soon as new expansion came out. Even the lore has been sacrificed for this morbid wheel of pain.

    No, I do NOT like Wow, and what it did to this genre. The idea of thousands of players together, in a fictional world, is amazing.
    Yet it has turned into an abomination, a massive cash cow enticing players to complete mindnumbing tasks all day who means nothing in the end.
    Last edited by Gurluas; 2013-02-28 at 11:51 AM.

  3. #3023
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurluas View Post
    No because that model wouldn't work, but imagine this...You were free to choose what factions to join, you could go anywhere in the world, you could get an instanced house, like in skyrim, pvp would depend on which faction you joined not on your race, the economy was entirely player controlled, you could use first person, combat was similar to skyrim except for the skill bar, you could find loot to decorate your house, the world would be alive as it was in Skyrim, quests would not exist, not directly. But instead, dynamic events would happen, such as a village being attacked by bandits and so on, and if you helped you would be rewarded, the plot would instead advance through dungeons, who would behave similar to wow, but the open world would essentially be a Sandbox, and then you could get jobs to earn money, or be a mercenary, or a thief, or a mugger etc.
    That's my thought exactly. I would even go further and make the guilds and smaller factions from the elder scrolls universe (like fighter/thier/mage guild, dark brotherhood, deadric cults and other religious groups, etc...) be player managed with the possibility to advance in ranks based on your skills/accomplishments etc.

    Imo, they should't limit the freedom and game mechanics present in single players elder scrolls games to fit the wow mmo formula, but they should use the advantages offered by the interaction between a huge number of players in MMOs to expand the elder scrolls formula to make it truly become a vivid virtual world. I understand this would be 100 times harder to make then what they are doing in ESO, but if made right it could be so much better.

  4. #3024
    Yea Gurluas is hitting pretty close to the mark of what a TES MMO should've been. Instead we're getting this, which, while it may not be necessarily bad, just leaves me warier than I'd like to be.
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  5. #3025
    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    Yea Gurluas is hitting pretty close to the mark of what a TES MMO should've been. Instead we're getting this, which, while it may not be necessarily bad, just leaves me warier than I'd like to be.
    Exactly. Themepark MMO's are just boring. I and Im sure many other TES fans like the games because they don't restrict the player and let you do almost anything and play as you wish.

    A true sandbox TES MMO would be perfect. Much better than a single player game, I think (because it would be a single player game thats constantly updated and also presents you with the option to compete against or play with others). Of course the balance issues need to be fixed and modding limited so some players wouldnt be able to wipe out entire cities or make god items.

    Still, I remain cautiously optimistic now. Less optimistic after the "no first person" announcement but still not about to ring the "WoW clone, nothing further to see here, next!" bell.

  6. #3026
    That was beautfiul, Gurluas. *wipes tear*

    Ah, what this game could have been...

    inb4 he gets trolled by the "LOLOL HOW CULD DAT WORK IN AN MMO ITS NAWT HOW WOW WORKZ!!!111one11" crowd.

  7. #3027
    Inbefore "none of you are TRUE TESO fans".
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  8. #3028
    I am Murloc! Luko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurluas View Post
    People have gotten the wrong idea that all MMOs have to be Themepark MMOs and Wow clones, but they DON'T!
    I blame WOW, the epitomy of Themepark boredom...Dailies, mindless grind quests, reputation grinds and so on.
    I get it. I really do. I've been in the MMO world for going on 13 years now. I miss the WORLD they used to present us, not the chore list. Truly I do, but there's a little problem called reality. See, 10 million people still play WoW. 80% of those people seem to be happy with the game just the way it is. Most new MMOs (TeSO included) seem to be out for one thing and one thing only; a piece of that pie. They see WoW come out with the same shit every year and they think "Shit, the playerbase can't possibly want MORE of this? They've been doing the same stuff for a decade. Don't you guys want something new?" But by the time they turn around, the community is already going:


    OMG MORE "CONTENT!!!!!"


    That's what they want a piece of. That's what's going to fund their game if it ever hopes to survive a 6 month window. It's depressing as all hell, but it's the staple for MMORPGs now. Take your scenario for example. Now trust me, I'm fully aware that you already know ALL of this. I'm just clarifying. Anyway, take your scenario of how "TeSO should have been" and release it into the hypothetical world. Now, cue players;

    "Wtf. What am I supposed to do?" "I can't figure out where to go now" "Where are my quests?" "Wuts the endgame like" "LOLNUB warriors aren't supposed to use bows!!!11!" "Wuts the best way to make gold??" "Why is the auction house so stupid?" "I dont want an economy i just wunt golds. THANKS OBAMA."

    We know this, companies know this and even the people these stereotypes apply to know this. Shamelessly, even. They want fed and TeSO is just trying to be their new addicting snack.
    Last edited by Luko; 2013-02-28 at 02:11 PM.
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  9. #3029
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    I get it. I really do. I've been in the MMO world for going on 13 years now. I miss the WORLD they used to present us, not the chore list. Truly I do, but there's a little problem called reality. See, 10 million people still play WoW. 80% of those people seem to be happy with the game just the way it is. Most new MMOs (TeSO included) seem to be out for one thing and one thing only; a piece of that pie. They see WoW come out with the same shit every year and they think "Shit, the playerbase can't possibly want MORE of this? They've been doing the same stuff for a decade. Don't you guys want something new?" But by the time they turn around, the community is already going:


    OMG MORE "CONTENT!!!!!"


    That's what they want a piece of. That's what's going to fund their game if it ever hopes to survive a 6 month window. It's depressing as all hell, but it's the staple for MMORPGs now. Take your scenario for example. Now trust me, I'm fully aware that you already know ALL. I'm just clarifying. Anyway, take your scenario of how "TeSO should have been" and release it into the hypothetical world. Now, cue players;

    "Wtf. What am I supposed to do?" "I can't figure out where to go now" "Where are my quests?" "Wuts the endgame like" "LOLNUB warriors aren't supposed to use bows!!!11!" "Wuts the best way to make gold??" "Why is the auction house so stupid?" "I dont want an economy i just wunt golds. THANKS OBAMA."

    We know this, companies know this and even the people these stereotypes apply to know this. Shamelessly, even. They want fed and TeSO is just trying to be their new addicting snack.
    This may be true but you seem to be forgetting a few important things.. none of the clones have been largely successful so far, even the big, anticipated titles. Sure, they may have a steady 100-200k sub player base but if a game can have much more, why settle for this?

    Also, sometimes risks have to be taken and improvements made. Currently there are no AAA sandbox MMOs at all, at least not fantasy MMOs, I don't know about the sci-fi and modern ones. Not only that but Oblivion and especially Skyrim were largely successful while not being traditional RPGs. I think that shows that there are enough people who like these sort of games. So I guess it's still better to take all the sandbox and TES fans than to share the pie with gazillion WoW wannabes. It's also the only way to become the new "WoW" and dictate standards for future games.

  10. #3030
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizbeth View Post
    This may be true but you seem to be forgetting a few important things.. none of the clones have been largely successful so far, even the big, anticipated titles. Sure, they may have a steady 100-200k sub player base but if a game can have much more, why settle for this?

    Also, sometimes risks have to be taken and improvements made. Currently there are no AAA sandbox MMOs at all, at least not fantasy MMOs, I don't know about the sci-fi and modern ones. Not only that but Oblivion and especially Skyrim were largely successful while not being traditional RPGs. I think that shows that there are enough people who like these sort of games. So I guess it's still better to take all the sandbox and TES fans than to share the pie with gazillion WoW wannabes. It's also the only way to become the new "WoW" and dictate standards for future games.
    Right. What you say makes sense to an MMO player, especially one in need of "more." Now, try convincing sponsors of that. People signing the checks for the developers. Even players who're going to be paying the sub fee. Different story all together. The people with the money aren't going to go outside of their comfort zone to add a new concept to the market when they see the playerbase asking for the same shit they've been doing for 5+ years.

    Look at the success of cash-shop mobile games or even browser flash games. Blood Brothers for Mobile has netted something like 5 million dollars in the US alone since it's come out on nothing but kids buying currency from its shop so they can do their "dailies" faster. Then, someone walks up to them and throws up the idea of a "Living, breathing world! Dont give them an MMO with Elderscrolls painted on it! Give them something brand new! Something they have to build themselves and will feel far more rewarded for it!" Right, then the big-wig looks down and says "Hmm, an MMO painted like Elder Scrolls! I love it! People will eat it up!"

    And they will... for about 2 months. It's nice to fantasize about what the game could have been, but my reality light clicks on way too easily to enjoy it.
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  11. #3031
    From my understanding, TESO IS a sandbox game, with a little bit of themepark for those people who would bitch and whine about there being no endgame. And as far as I could tell, in Skyrim, I was confined to 1 "small" country, so I don't see how it is bad that I am confined to certain portions of the land. Do I like it? Nope, not exactly. But I can understand their reasons for it.

    And I do agree with Gurluas's last paragraph. I absolutely hate what WoW has done to the genre, and how everyone thinks all games must be like WoW, yet bitch that the game is too much like WoW and say it's "fail" and quit. Also doesn't help that every developer is wanting the piece of that WoW themepark pie, when there's that older sandbox pie just waiting off to the side growing mold because no one wants to touch it, both on the developer side and player side.

  12. #3032
    Quote Originally Posted by Lizbeth View Post
    So I guess it's still better to take all the sandbox and TES fans than to share the pie with gazillion WoW wannabes. It's also the only way to become the new "WoW" and dictate standards for future games.
    Yeah.

    I remember when some EA guy was like "there's at least 12 million MMO fans up for grabs in addition to wows 10 million" or something. It was like... No, there really isn't. EQ/WoW/Rift MMOs are a niche market that is cornered by WoW. The most you could hope to get would be like... 1 million.

    There's a larger market for other genres so the rise of hybrid MMOs (arpg mmos, t/fps mmos, rts mmos) is a way for devs to get players who aren't addicted to wow.

    Trying to make another WoW that plays and looks like WoW is the worst idea ever (esp because blizzard is increasing their update speed.)
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  13. #3033
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    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Yeah.

    I remember when some EA guy was like "there's at least 12 million MMO fans up for grabs in addition to wows 10 million" or something. It was like... No, there really isn't.
    I remember when I first read that. I just sort of stared at the screen and missed everything that was said for the next 5 minutes in total shock. It was though he saw himself as some sort of piper that was going to frolic over to the WoW players, toot his flute for a couple hours and have them all mindlessly following him back to his own game. I almost couldn't believe he said it.

    At this point, an MMO holding down 750k + for any length of time would be a pretty big success in my book. I sincerely hope these companies aren't really shooting for WoW numbers. For reasons beyond anything competitive or logic-based, it's never going to happen.
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  14. #3034
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Right. What you say makes sense to an MMO player, especially one in need of "more." Now, try convincing sponsors of that. People signing the checks for the developers. Even players who're going to be paying the sub fee. Different story all together. The people with the money aren't going to go outside of their comfort zone to add a new concept to the market when they see the playerbase asking for the same shit they've been doing for 5+ years.

    Look at the success of cash-shop mobile games or even browser flash games. Blood Brothers for Mobile has netted something like 5 million dollars in the US alone since it's come out on nothing but kids buying currency from its shop so they can do their "dailies" faster. Then, someone walks up to them and throws up the idea of a "Living, breathing world! Dont give them an MMO with Elderscrolls painted on it! Give them something brand new! Something they have to build themselves and will feel far more rewarded for it!" Right, then the big-wig looks down and says "Hmm, an MMO painted like Elder Scrolls! I love it! People will eat it up!"

    And they will... for about 2 months. It's nice to fantasize about what the game could have been, but my reality light clicks on way too easily to enjoy it.
    Even if that was true, I doubt all the investors are this stupid. All the themepark WoW clones that were hyped to oblivion and were said to be the WoW killers have failed. Not all of them were financial disasters but they weren't exactly the successful cashcows like WoW either.

    So why follow in their footsteps? Spend a lot of money and time and end up at best with less than optimal profits..

    Yes a truly innovative MMO would need taking some risks but the profits could also be many times biggers, even 100s of times bigger. Especially when moving into a niche thats currently unoccupied. Sandbox MMOs don't necessarily need super long learning curves or be harder than themepark ones. So it wouldn't be fair to say that all casuals would avoid a game like that in favor on a more WoW-like MMO..

  15. #3035
    Events that require everyone to come help out with always end up as lagfests and ends up being annoying/useless

  16. #3036
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizbeth View Post
    Even if that was true, I doubt all the investors are this stupid. All the themepark WoW clones that were hyped to oblivion and were said to be the WoW killers have failed.
    Simple, really. For the reason mentioned in the few posts above. They're looking to do it better. They're looking to take from WoW's playerbase rather than attract a new group of players.

    Don't get me wrong here, I'm not disagreeing with you. I think there's a huge market for a Sandbox MMO experience. Shit I'd probably play the hell out of it. It'd be very risky but like you said, it's not as if the new action-bar MMO's are breaking any records. For the time being, however, it would seem as those most of the larger MMOs are all trying to fight over the same large group of players and it's not looking like TeSO is breaking that trend.
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  17. #3037
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woakerio View Post
    Will it be the 1 million MMO nomads who hop onto the latest popular game, while keeping their WOW accounts open for when they get bored, eat up all the content and go back to WOW where their massive guilds and high level characters are? They last about 3 months tops. No.

    Will it be the 12.5 million TES fans (2.5 million on PC) who will want to play this online and be invested in the content and the world? Yes, especially since ZOS had the good foresight to put the game on macs, which, for those console-players, broadens the cross-pollination of gamers.
    What if I'm both of these? Apart from WoW, to which I return regularly, I've played several MMOs (though never the WoW clones like WHO, Aion etc., more like DDO, DCUO and such) but I've also played every TES game including the expansions, apart from the spin-off titles like Redguard, and I've loved them. I'm really looking forward towards TESO, not "to have anothe MMO to waste time on" but both to enjoy the lore of the world I like (as I did with TOR) but also to see how will the TES world be made into a functioning MMORPG with PvP and end-game PvE content...

  18. #3038
    Quote Originally Posted by Pachycrocuta View Post
    From my understanding, TESO IS a sandbox game, with a little bit of themepark for those people who would bitch and whine about there being no endgame. And as far as I could tell, in Skyrim, I was confined to 1 "small" country, so I don't see how it is bad that I am confined to certain portions of the land. Do I like it? Nope, not exactly. But I can understand their reasons for it.
    Clarifying/responding to some things:

    *Skyrim in TESO will not be as big as Skyrim in Skyrim. They've said that. We can assume then that none of the countries will be as big as their respective games. Nor is it expected that they be (not expected by anyone who isn't a complete moron who thinks they can make several gigantic landmasses that would pretty much be bigger and more detailed than any game at launch).
    *Of course there's no problem with being confined to Skyrim when you're playing Skyrim. You don't complain about not being able to see Pandaria in WC3 either. You're not missing out on anything that was already developed. But it's stupid to miss out on things that were developed in the game just because there are invisible walls right in the world. Some people don't like alts.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-01 at 12:02 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by gorocz View Post
    What if I'm both of these? Apart from WoW, to which I return regularly, I've played several MMOs (though never the WoW clones like WHO, Aion etc., more like DDO, DCUO and such) but I've also played every TES game including the expansions, apart from the spin-off titles like Redguard, and I've loved them. I'm really looking forward towards TESO, not "to have anothe MMO to waste time on" but both to enjoy the lore of the world I like (as I did with TOR) but also to see how will the TES world be made into a functioning MMORPG with PvP and end-game PvE content...
    Why? Why do you want WoW in a TES skin? That's essentially what you're saying in that last line. If we take away the superficial bullshit and just focus on the technical aspects, all these raiding games are the same. WoW, Rift, EQ, SWTOR, whatever. Raiding end game, it's all the same. Different colors, different stories, different names, same core. Why waste another franchise with that?
    Last edited by vizzle; 2013-02-28 at 04:06 PM.
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  19. #3039
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    I don't mean to fanboy this place up, and if this post resembles that, I apologize.

    But two off topic things that's bothered me over the past 11 pages since I last posted:

    1: The term 'clone' is thrown around so heavilly in this thread (but not exclusively here obviously) that I'm really not sure we can call it cloning anymore. By many examples used in this thread for cloning, I'd argue my parents took my brother and cloned him, creating me. We don't look alike, think alike or share that much except alot of views on things, but we came with the same background, ergo we must be clones. SW:TOR mimicked alot of aspects from WoW, but they sure as heck do not look alike or function alike in so many other aspects. If that's what goes for cloning, I'm really not impressed by that sheep anymore. My local butcher clones pigs.

    2: In this recent page, I've read "What the game could have been". Considering the game is not even on the shelves or even closed beta yet, don't you think it's time we take a step back and wait? LOTS of things can change - heck, that's why we bitch and moan, right? - and might change when the closed beta starts. So the game's not going to involve everything, everyone wants. Do we really go into this with the idea that it will? I'm 100% positive there's hundreds of thousands other players out there who wants something diffrent from this game than I do, and that's fine. Broad appeal has upsides and downsides, but those can coexist. Only extremists on both ends "I will NOT play the game if it does NOT have THESE select features!" or "This game caters WAY too much to X so I refuse to play it!" are left out, while the huge center remains. That's not ideal for the extremists, sure, but it's what I would call brilliant design and marketing.

    Sorry for going OT, I just wanted to throw in the two points, that we use the term 'cloning' way too broadly when some aspects are remotely identical to others, and we should'nt begin dooming or glorifying the game before it's even released.

    Thanks for reading. I don't plan to be vocal around here again despite this post, way too much flamebaiting and pointless argueing from both sides, but I'll be reading for those, fortunately common, gems of insight or knowladge/speculation.

    - Kasp.
    Enough with bashing eachother, guys.. This community is still young and needs to grow up and show that not everyone are jerks. We're gamers and we enjoy games, don't bash eachother over what games they like or their oppinions, but don't let them bash others either. We need to come together and stand up, as a community, and help eachother out by being respectful and understanding. Please.

  20. #3040
    Kasp, I wish I could hold to your optimism to how things can change since they're still in alpha stages. But I've learned that things DON'T for the most part change. I don't expect them to. And every new piece of information about the game only indicates that its moving more towards the WoW formula, which would be perfectly fine if it wasn't sacrificing the TES formula in the process.
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