I don't have the beta but if i did, i think i would say something along the lines of, it looks like GW2 with 3 factions, and not much else. Also looks like it plays similar to GW2. i think i will be dissapointed when this comes out, for sure going to get overhyped.
From what I've been reading, adventure zones are basically the ESO version of raids. It's kind of strange. The adventure zones themselves are open world, but the large raid sized encounters within the zones end up becoming phased for the people that initiate the encounter. This is just what I've read through various sites, so take it with a grain of salt. Paul Sage also said that adventure zones probably won't be in for launch.
The game is going to feel totally different then gw2. I suggest playing the Neverwinter Beta because i think that is more similar.
I think you make a lot of valid points however it wasn't too long back when the WoW raiding scene was experience by only 1% of the entire population. And it wasn't "Raids" that brought people in to play the game. When WoW went live in 2004 and in the upcoming years before WTLK, how many people actually raided? Only a small minority did raid. And the small minority were hardcore raiders that had come from previous MMOs.
How did people continue to play the game till TBC and onwards?
It was during WTLK when WoW actually started moving towards the whole gear grind scene we currently have today. When they had 2 separate lock outs for Normal and Heroic raids. That is what you call a gear grind.
The thing is you have two very different player bases, the WoW crowd and the TES crowd. You have the Elder Scroll fans that love the world they play in, the experience provided by the game, the opportunity to do what you want and build a character from scratch with freedom. That is what the game is trying to deliver.
Too much emphasis has been put on WoW's end game the last two expansions. Well the reason is quite obvious. There are only so many times a player can go back and experience the old world. The revamped low level zones didn't even help WoW's cause. So what did Blizzard decide to do? Focus on end game. Make that everyone's goal. So therefore you start having a grind. You grind Heroic Dungeons, then you move up to LFR, then Normal Raids, then Heroic Raids and then you start again.
You spoke so wisely, but tell me how many Heroic Dungeons were there during Vanilla WoW? How many people actually ran the Heroic Dungeons during TBC and raided during TBC? A small minority. WoW has become a gear grind cause of the direction Blizzard has taken and people have come to accept it without questioning it.
ZMO ain't saying that there ain't going to be any raids. Lets take WoW for example. How many people at the launch of a new expansion race to the end level and start farming dungeons then proceed to start running raids and then heroic raids. Its more of a race for them. They don't care whether the story or the quests have any part to play in the game. Content is there for them to be completed.
But what is popular doesn't mean is right also. Raids is the only challenging group content we know so far. If you know something else please share. Dungeons are also group content but in no way as challenging as raids.
Again, is perfectly fine to ask/like whatever endgame you like(dailies, pet/achievement collection, exploration) but to question the people who asking the obvious(the only challenging group content known so far) for an MMO and to present them like they are "single-minded" is at least ironic.
So the question is, what is the challenging group content of TESO? Will it focus on single-player endgame or it will focus on Group-content as endgame? Will you be able to chase the carrot alone or you will need group to do it? If I remember correctly in a video I saw about TESO, they said that the true game begins at 50 to show us that they focus a lot on the endgame.
The trick of selling a FFA-PvP MMO is creating the illusion among gankers that they are respectable fighters while protecting them from respectable fights, as their less skilled half would be massacred and quit instead of “HTFU” as they claim.
As I just said 4 posts ago, adventure zones are going to the large group content for ESO. However, it's likely they won't be in at launch.
http://tamrielfoundry.com/2013/03/pax-day-one-recap/ There are plenty more reviews saying the same thing just google.
So I do think we will see raid sized encounters but not like we are all used to seeing. They are also on the record of saying that for larger group encounters, which could be 3 man to 15 man(no one knows), they wanted to pit players against larger groups of npc's instead of wow type encounters where 25 people are hacking on one boss.
Last edited by Gsara; 2013-04-04 at 07:51 PM.
The transition into "proper" raiding came quickly for me, though by no means hardcore. You call WOTLK a gear grind - I think you have forgotten how it was to do MC with 40 people and get 2 item drops from a boss, 50% of which were useless garbage outclassed by Dire Maul blues. Talk about a gear grind! Of course, it all evolved from there, and you are definitely right that raiding was the most grindy during WOTLK, when separate lockouts effectively doubled your schedule.
Of course the game wasn't made for raiders back then, and they were a tiny minority. But many things were different then, and even though it may not have been proper raiding, there definitely was a lot of endgame content to go through. It certainly took a lot of time to do it all! These days it would be considered utterly inaccessible, but that's hindsight for you.
But again, if the TES crowd is all you cared about, why make it an MMO? Obviously you're trying to expand, to take in people that haven't stuck with the franchise for years. They even made 3rd person the default to attract people not ordinarily interested in the usual TES model! At the risk of repeating myself, I just don't think they intend to make TESO "Skyrim with PvP". There's got to be something new to distinguish the game as an actual MMO, not just a single player game with multiplayer components. MMOs live off of their populations, and they are in it for the long term. Single player games die down quickly, and keep some of their player base only through mods or DLC. If you want to make the investment of an MMO, with the architecture etc. required by it, you must have a way to keep people interested and playing. Or are you telling me that there's still a million people out there playing through unmodded Skyrim for the 10.000th time?
I could again cite SWTOR: they decided not to have a LFD system, even though most competitors at the time had one. The reaction from the playerbase was obvious disappointment and frustration because they had to go back to a way of playing they had left behind with other games; ultimately, they had to implement the system anyway, but not after losing a lot of players. That's just one example, of course, but it illustrates the point well. You can't go back on these sorts of inventions. People have played with them for a time, gotten used to them, EXCPECT them. You can't just not have them, and try to discover them on your own. That's not how any other branch of the economy works, so why should games?
"You don't get the complete package at day one", you say. You are right. But that sentence doesn't mean you start from zero and go from there; no, you start where your competition left off, and innovate from there. Why should people be expected to pick up your game at the cost of losing features they have had for a long time in other games? That maybe works if you trade it off for something completely new and unique, something so overpowering it makes you forget about other games. TESO doesn't have anything like that (nor does any other new game, but that's beside the point), so they better be AT LEAST AS GOOD as their competition.
Of the features we are still learning about, Adventure Zones are one of the most intriguing. I asked Matt to talk about what we could expect in those areas and when we might see them.
"Probably not ready for launch. And I talk about them with the knowledge that launch day is just another day for an MMO, I mean it's a super important day but we're committed to this. We will have worked on expansion content, post launch content for months into the game launch; we'll have already been working on stuff.
I would rather put fewer really solid systems in now than put in a whole bunch of stuff that doesn't really work together, just to make launch day. We want the core of the game to be good, the core of the game to be fun, hundreds of hours of PvE gameplay, a great PvP system and then work on it from there.”
With the introduction of these huge areas, one would expect a lot of content variety to be present that appeals to players who want to roam away from the main alliance-related content streams.
"Exactly. If I'm tapped out, I’m high level. I've played through all the alliances, or I want to take a break from playing through the alliances and I want to go to some other high level content, I'll go there. And I'll know there are people soloing at max level. We probably won't use the term “raid” but a large group, large encounter, there will probably be people there recruiting for one. There’ll probably be a looking for group system so you can just go right there; those are the things you're doing. I can go do a daily, get a quest to do something right there, that's the kind of stuff you're talking about."
Last edited by Tabbycat; 2013-04-04 at 08:33 PM.
Challenging content based off gear isn't challenging as it's just gear, difficulty by skill is what should be how it is. If the designer can't make it challenging without a need for stat inflation, then it failed to be done with skill. Doesn't matter on the amount of people, it matters on the encounter and designed mechanics.
Seriously, I think todays MMO can evolve past "Raids"... Boring, time consuming, a simple case of trial and error... I'll have the Adventure Zones please. If people want challenging, endgame groups at the end-game, they can go somewhere else, I don't think its even in the developers intention to bring in the WoW raiding scene, its not ESO place.
World bosses tend to be a lot of fun too.
I don't see the need for an instanced raid when you could get creative in completely new and unseen ways with outdoor raiding and world boss mechanics.
Volan in rift comes to mind.
(Firefall) - All Battleframes -
(Warframe) - Silver Tiger & Hurricane -
(Neverwinter) - Trickster Rogue -
On a serious note, I welcome any attempt to differ from WoW's model of "raiding", or rather, "endgame group content", which to be honest is a much better (read: broader) term. I could definitely get behind fighting multiple enemies instead of one giant boss; after all, some of the most challenging encounters in WoW, too, have been those with a lot of enemies (Faction Champions, I'm looking at you) at the same time. What I hope they do NOT end up making is a giant slaughter/zergfest where everyone just runs around chaotically, trying to slice their way through droves of mobs that aren't actually all too dangerous except for their number. That's just not fun.
But I think it's fair to first wait for more information. So far, a lot of the cries to either side have been rather speculative; it seems that the question of TESO endgame isn't 100% decided yet, and that's okay. I just hope that when they do decide, it's not a half-finished non-solution that tries to appease everybody and pleases no one.
Last edited by Biomega; 2013-04-04 at 10:08 PM.
A lot of people that got into WoW during the first year took forever to actually reach end game. There was a small minority that pushed into raid content. I mean sure raiding was going on I don't think MC was a gear grind compared to what we have these days. I mean sure you had limited drops and required a large group of 40, but it wasn't for drops that people went to these raids.
Warsong Gulch and Arathi Basin were added to the game 6-7 months after launch. Ahn'Quiraj, Blackwing Lair, ZulGurub, Naxrammus were all added 10 months to more than a year after the game was launched. Sure Molten Core and Onyxia Lare were available at launch but most of the rest were added in months down the line.
And I would hardly consider raiding to be anything what it has been since WTLK. They just seem to be glorified dungeons on a bigger scale. There is nothing epic about them. Sure they are more complex but not epic. Naxxramus when it first came out is what you would call a raid. 40 people storming an Undead Citadel is a raid. Not 10 people stomping through bosses on day 1 in WTLK.
I ain't saying how a person should enjoy his or her game or how they should play. All I am saying is the larger your target demographics, the harder it is to meet all their wants and needs. You don't need everyone and anyone playing your game.
This is what we see with Blizzard these days. They are so unsure which direction to go. They decided going "old school" in Cata but when the subs fell down they scrapped those plans and all of a sudden you have a different direction. People felt entitled to "gear" cause they were paying, so Blizzard released a LFR. People cried the drop rate sucked, they got bonus loot rules and an increased drop rate. People whined that PVP gear was a pain to farm and was only exclusive to Arena Players, they made that easier to obtain via RBGs and more and then they changed that again.
That is what you happen when you have so many different types of players telling you what to do. The best days in WoW were Vanilla and TBC without all the rose tinted glasses. Sure people found it a pain and a grind but you only got what you worked at. Things actually felt like a reward.
At the same time I ain't against variety but too much and you have a hard time keeping everything in line. Sometimes it depends what works.
---------- Post added 2013-04-05 at 12:09 AM ----------
That is one of the major reasons, we see a gradual nerf to raids over time cause people don't give a damn after some time. The raids we have these days are simply just more complex with more things to watch and adds to kill with all the other crap going on.
I wouldn't even consider ToC a Raid. I don't even know what to call it honestly.
You have Blizzard doing something similar to with their scenarios. I mean didn't GW2 come out with them or was it Rift with their dynamic events.
As Firor said, they aren't trying to beat WoW at their own game. They are trying to do something different with Adventure Zones. It will be large group content that will be instanced but it won't be a bunch of players whacking at an elite boss' ankles.
I sure as hell hope the fight's aren't like faction champs. Even on heroic the fight was a CC snoozefest. On the ask me anything thread I was reading from a guy who went to pax, he said he killed bosses by CCing them and kiting while interrupting their big attack. That doesn't sound good to me, but I'll withhold final judgement until I get to play.
Last edited by Loaf Lord; 2013-04-05 at 03:30 AM.