1. #3921
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    Clearly i said "So they arent launching with raids? The game just failed allready. I obviously meant that the game would fail without it launching with an endgame. A pvp endgame wont do either. In this day and age the game needs both to really be a success.
    Not every game has to appeal to the majority. It makes a game unique, it makes it's own identity that way and makes loyal customers.
    It's called carving their own niche.

  2. #3922
    Dreadlord Nykolas's Avatar
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    I don't have the beta but if i did, i think i would say something along the lines of, it looks like GW2 with 3 factions, and not much else. Also looks like it plays similar to GW2. i think i will be dissapointed when this comes out, for sure going to get overhyped.

  3. #3923
    Scarab Lord Loaf Lord's Avatar
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    From what I've been reading, adventure zones are basically the ESO version of raids. It's kind of strange. The adventure zones themselves are open world, but the large raid sized encounters within the zones end up becoming phased for the people that initiate the encounter. This is just what I've read through various sites, so take it with a grain of salt. Paul Sage also said that adventure zones probably won't be in for launch.

  4. #3924
    Quote Originally Posted by Nykolas View Post
    I don't have the beta but if i did, i think i would say something along the lines of, it looks like GW2 with 3 factions, and not much else. Also looks like it plays similar to GW2. i think i will be dissapointed when this comes out, for sure going to get overhyped.
    Well first of all its gonna play nothing like GW2, Gw2 does not have attacks bound to mouse keys or strong and weak attacks based on how long you hold ur button down. From a World PvP perspective i think that will feel like gw2, although maybe with better player vs player battles where AoE isnt so strong and melee arnt scared to run into a pack and get 1 shot.

    The game is going to feel totally different then gw2. I suggest playing the Neverwinter Beta because i think that is more similar.

  5. #3925
    Bloodsail Admiral Maythael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    Not every game has to appeal to the majority. It makes a game unique, it makes it's own identity that way and makes loyal customers.
    It's called carving their own niche.
    Indeed. Hopefully it will be a game focused more on us open world people, than other games - people who like to explore and join ad hoc groups for different events/stuff.

  6. #3926
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Acting on an incentive isn't a WoW-invention, it's how people have always worked. Carrot-on-a-stick design isn't the problem, nor the point of debate - the nature of the carrot is. In WoW it's loot, whether powerful, pretty, or pet. Games like GW2 have tried to make the gameworld experience the carrot, and it has only been mildly successful. Understandably so, I think; in the end, we are all selfish bastards at heart and so the strongest incentive will always remain whatever caters to that the most. Whether that's amazing stats or amazing looks is another question, but it almost assuredly has to remain PERSONAL. The power of these sorts of incentives has been slowly invading most games and gaming platforms. Look at achievements, for example: they are nothing but imaginary badges designed to tell others how awesome you are. It's just one of the mechanisms to get players more involved with the game. Heck, even games that were traditionally without such a mechanic (like FPS or RTS) are all switching onto a system of persistent progression to keep people playing.

    MMOs are destined to follow such a pattern almost by definition. After all, what good is it if you play with others but can't show them how badass you are? Might as well play single-player then, right? And there are only so many ways you can come up with to reward players with tools to show off their "uniqueness" and, dare I say it, "skill". In fact, at the core there are only two factors that matter: time and ability. Everything in the game is designed around these two, the differences are merely how you use them. But I guarantee you that it's going to be incentive-based, in whatever way. Nobody will sit there and kill 100.000 enemies just because the combat feels cool. It just won't happen, not with players being what and how they are.

    That doesn't mean everything has to be a WoW-copy. WoW itself has copied many of its core concepts from other games. What distinguishes WoW, in my opinion, is the iterative nature of its endgame. It's an endless treadmill, driven by loot. You may like that, or you may not, but ask yourself: what other incentive could there be? Players WANT goals when they play, or they become bored very quickly. An engaging, beautiful game world will keep you occupied for a while, but even the biggest, prettiest sandbox becomes dull and repetitive in almost no time. That works in a single player game; you play it for a few hours, then you've had your fill and move on to the next game. It's a perfectly valid system, but it only works for single player games. As soon as you try to create a long-term, persistent multiplayer world, player boredom becomes your #1 enemy. Understandably so, as a multiplayer world lives off its inhabitants, and if you keep hemorrhaging players because they become bored, then the world will be underpopulated and the experience will suffer for everyone.

    But, again, I'm in no way saying that every MMO needs to be WoW, or have a WoW-like endgame. But they all need something, some incentive, some carrot to dangle in front of people to keep them engaged. It would be nice if we were all devoted players that are in it for the experience alone - but that's just not how the majority of people think and play. It's not going to happen.

    I think you make a lot of valid points however it wasn't too long back when the WoW raiding scene was experience by only 1% of the entire population. And it wasn't "Raids" that brought people in to play the game. When WoW went live in 2004 and in the upcoming years before WTLK, how many people actually raided? Only a small minority did raid. And the small minority were hardcore raiders that had come from previous MMOs.

    How did people continue to play the game till TBC and onwards?

    It was during WTLK when WoW actually started moving towards the whole gear grind scene we currently have today. When they had 2 separate lock outs for Normal and Heroic raids. That is what you call a gear grind.

    The thing is you have two very different player bases, the WoW crowd and the TES crowd. You have the Elder Scroll fans that love the world they play in, the experience provided by the game, the opportunity to do what you want and build a character from scratch with freedom. That is what the game is trying to deliver.

    Too much emphasis has been put on WoW's end game the last two expansions. Well the reason is quite obvious. There are only so many times a player can go back and experience the old world. The revamped low level zones didn't even help WoW's cause. So what did Blizzard decide to do? Focus on end game. Make that everyone's goal. So therefore you start having a grind. You grind Heroic Dungeons, then you move up to LFR, then Normal Raids, then Heroic Raids and then you start again.

    You spoke so wisely, but tell me how many Heroic Dungeons were there during Vanilla WoW? How many people actually ran the Heroic Dungeons during TBC and raided during TBC? A small minority. WoW has become a gear grind cause of the direction Blizzard has taken and people have come to accept it without questioning it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That's not to say there aren't people like that, though, and it's important to keep that in mind. But to be honest, I don't see a reason why there shouldn't be multiple layers within the game, multiple systems with multiple incentives that each cater to different types of players. That has been one of WoW's biggest strengths over the years, the variety offered at endgame. WoW, too, is in my opinion too limited and too simplistic in what it offers, but it still does it better than most other games. There simply must be SOMETHING TO DO, and the only way to get anyone off their fat asses and do it is by dangling a reward in front of them. For raiders, it's powerful gear; for other people, it may be pretty gear, or pets, or achievements, or even something abstract like a high PvP rating. Without the carrot-on-a-stick, an MMO would die.

    But implementation matters, too. Just having the rewards there isn't enough, it has to be done properly. WoW has made many mistakes in that regard in the past; TEOS, I hope, will learn from those. Gear inflation and welfare has to be balanced; incentives have to be matched to the expectations of their target audience; grinds have to be just right, not too quick, not too tedious; and many, many other factors that play an important role. But, yet again, there must be SOMETHING. So far, TEOS has not revealed a compelling reason to treat the game as anything else than Skyrim with PvP. That could be fine as a concept, but it will be an inherent limit to the game's success, population size, and playerbase diversity. I think it could do better. We'll have to wait for more information to see if it will.
    Again you like most critics I've read are comparing WoW "today" to a brand new MMO. You are talking about pet battles, and all the excess that was added slowly to WoW. You don't get the complete package at day one.

    ZMO ain't saying that there ain't going to be any raids. Lets take WoW for example. How many people at the launch of a new expansion race to the end level and start farming dungeons then proceed to start running raids and then heroic raids. Its more of a race for them. They don't care whether the story or the quests have any part to play in the game. Content is there for them to be completed.

  7. #3927
    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    Why are raids the only form of endgame in your eyes?

    It's like asking why an eskimo can't imagine a desert I guess.
    Raids is a challenging endgame content that is also a group content. When you play MMO you want a challenging group content. I understand that many people play MMOs as single player games, but that doesn't mean that MMO(massive Multiplayer) are designed to play that way. I am sure that if a game will release and offer to people the best gear available or whatever the ultimate carrot is by letting them play solo, this game would maybe have lot of million players.

    But what is popular doesn't mean is right also. Raids is the only challenging group content we know so far. If you know something else please share. Dungeons are also group content but in no way as challenging as raids.

    Again, is perfectly fine to ask/like whatever endgame you like(dailies, pet/achievement collection, exploration) but to question the people who asking the obvious(the only challenging group content known so far) for an MMO and to present them like they are "single-minded" is at least ironic.

    So the question is, what is the challenging group content of TESO? Will it focus on single-player endgame or it will focus on Group-content as endgame? Will you be able to chase the carrot alone or you will need group to do it? If I remember correctly in a video I saw about TESO, they said that the true game begins at 50 to show us that they focus a lot on the endgame.
    The trick of selling a PvP-MMO is creating the illusion among gankers that they are respectable fighters while protecting them from respectable fights, as their less skilled half would be massacred and quit instead of “HTFU” as they claim.

  8. #3928
    Scarab Lord Loaf Lord's Avatar
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    As I just said 4 posts ago, adventure zones are going to the large group content for ESO. However, it's likely they won't be in at launch.

  9. #3929
    Quote Originally Posted by papajohn4 View Post
    So the question is, what is the challenging group content of TESO? Will it focus on single-player endgame or it will focus on Group-content as endgame? Will you be able to chase the carrot alone or you will need group to do it? If I remember correctly in a video I saw about TESO, they said that the true game begins at 50 to show us that they focus a lot on the endgame.
    What we know so far for the "endgame" play of teso is AvA, which is basically RvR pvp, dailies, exploration, possibly crafting depending how in depth they go, and what they are calling adventure zones which could be any size, we dont know. I do know that quit a few reviewers that got face time with Matt and some other devs all reported "ZeniMax doesn’t want to become embroiled in a struggle to out-do WoW at it’s own game, and would rather develop it’s own brand of large group PvE which fits the Elder Scrolls context. "
    http://tamrielfoundry.com/2013/03/pax-day-one-recap/ There are plenty more reviews saying the same thing just google.

    So I do think we will see raid sized encounters but not like we are all used to seeing. They are also on the record of saying that for larger group encounters, which could be 3 man to 15 man(no one knows), they wanted to pit players against larger groups of npc's instead of wow type encounters where 25 people are hacking on one boss.
    Last edited by Gsara; 2013-04-04 at 07:51 PM.

  10. #3930
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonheart View Post
    I think you make a lot of valid points however it wasn't too long back when the WoW raiding scene was experience by only 1% of the entire population. And it wasn't "Raids" that brought people in to play the game. When WoW went live in 2004 and in the upcoming years before WTLK, how many people actually raided? Only a small minority did raid. And the small minority were hardcore raiders that had come from previous MMOs.

    How did people continue to play the game till TBC and onwards?

    It was during WTLK when WoW actually started moving towards the whole gear grind scene we currently have today. When they had 2 separate lock outs for Normal and Heroic raids. That is what you call a gear grind.
    I was playing WoW since the beginning, and there was certainly "raiding" going on for random casuals - if you count Blackrock Spire, Stratholme, and Scholomance with 10 people "raiding". That was what you did back then, sort of the LFR-equivalent of the day. It took a long time to get done, and loot was generally horrible and in short supply.

    The transition into "proper" raiding came quickly for me, though by no means hardcore. You call WOTLK a gear grind - I think you have forgotten how it was to do MC with 40 people and get 2 item drops from a boss, 50% of which were useless garbage outclassed by Dire Maul blues. Talk about a gear grind! Of course, it all evolved from there, and you are definitely right that raiding was the most grindy during WOTLK, when separate lockouts effectively doubled your schedule.

    Of course the game wasn't made for raiders back then, and they were a tiny minority. But many things were different then, and even though it may not have been proper raiding, there definitely was a lot of endgame content to go through. It certainly took a lot of time to do it all! These days it would be considered utterly inaccessible, but that's hindsight for you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonheart View Post
    The thing is you have two very different player bases, the WoW crowd and the TES crowd. You have the Elder Scroll fans that love the world they play in, the experience provided by the game, the opportunity to do what you want and build a character from scratch with freedom. That is what the game is trying to deliver.

    Too much emphasis has been put on WoW's end game the last two expansions. Well the reason is quite obvious. There are only so many times a player can go back and experience the old world. The revamped low level zones didn't even help WoW's cause. So what did Blizzard decide to do? Focus on end game. Make that everyone's goal. So therefore you start having a grind. You grind Heroic Dungeons, then you move up to LFR, then Normal Raids, then Heroic Raids and then you start again.

    You spoke so wisely, but tell me how many Heroic Dungeons were there during Vanilla WoW? How many people actually ran the Heroic Dungeons during TBC and raided during TBC? A small minority. WoW has become a gear grind cause of the direction Blizzard has taken and people have come to accept it without questioning it.

    But again, if the TES crowd is all you cared about, why make it an MMO? Obviously you're trying to expand, to take in people that haven't stuck with the franchise for years. They even made 3rd person the default to attract people not ordinarily interested in the usual TES model! At the risk of repeating myself, I just don't think they intend to make TESO "Skyrim with PvP". There's got to be something new to distinguish the game as an actual MMO, not just a single player game with multiplayer components. MMOs live off of their populations, and they are in it for the long term. Single player games die down quickly, and keep some of their player base only through mods or DLC. If you want to make the investment of an MMO, with the architecture etc. required by it, you must have a way to keep people interested and playing. Or are you telling me that there's still a million people out there playing through unmodded Skyrim for the 10.000th time?



    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonheart View Post
    Again you like most critics I've read are comparing WoW "today" to a brand new MMO. You are talking about pet battles, and all the excess that was added slowly to WoW. You don't get the complete package at day one.
    That is an argument I hear surprisingly often, and I don't really get why people make it. OF COURSE I compare new games with WoW "today". I compare ANY product with its competitors as they are TODAY. Expecting everyone to repeat the same mistakes other people made, go through the same discoveries they made, is just ridiculous. Of course there's certain things a company has to learn when they first enter a market they previously didn't occupy; but that doesn't mean they have to start from scratch. The term "industry standard" comes to mind.

    I could again cite SWTOR: they decided not to have a LFD system, even though most competitors at the time had one. The reaction from the playerbase was obvious disappointment and frustration because they had to go back to a way of playing they had left behind with other games; ultimately, they had to implement the system anyway, but not after losing a lot of players. That's just one example, of course, but it illustrates the point well. You can't go back on these sorts of inventions. People have played with them for a time, gotten used to them, EXCPECT them. You can't just not have them, and try to discover them on your own. That's not how any other branch of the economy works, so why should games?

    "You don't get the complete package at day one", you say. You are right. But that sentence doesn't mean you start from zero and go from there; no, you start where your competition left off, and innovate from there. Why should people be expected to pick up your game at the cost of losing features they have had for a long time in other games? That maybe works if you trade it off for something completely new and unique, something so overpowering it makes you forget about other games. TESO doesn't have anything like that (nor does any other new game, but that's beside the point), so they better be AT LEAST AS GOOD as their competition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonheart View Post
    ZMO ain't saying that there ain't going to be any raids. Lets take WoW for example. How many people at the launch of a new expansion race to the end level and start farming dungeons then proceed to start running raids and then heroic raids. Its more of a race for them. They don't care whether the story or the quests have any part to play in the game. Content is there for them to be completed.
    There's certainly players like that, and it's a valid demographic. Not the biggest one, not the easiest one to cater to, but a demographic nonetheless. Why should they be excluded? Why not offer them something to chew on, while also offering other types of players other things, tailored more to their needs? Things should never be binary, options, modularity, variety, that's what people need, and that's how you keep a diverse playerbase. For that matter, I'd totally welcome a change in WoW's system, too. For the longest time we've had one raid mode; then two; lately, we've finally gone to three. I say even that isn't enough. Make it five, make it six! I think the only MMO that has done this to a good degree is D&DO, and it has been very positively received. In the long run, such customization is imo the only way to keep the maximum number of people happy and playing. And that is what we want, regardless of what type of player we are: we want people to play the game with us.

  11. #3931
    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    So they arent launching with raids? The game just failed allready.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel Tyrael View Post
    Not sure if you're trolling Chickat, or if you're just a really obnoxious person.
    Read for yourself, Chickat:
    http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=32077
    Of the features we are still learning about, Adventure Zones are one of the most intriguing. I asked Matt to talk about what we could expect in those areas and when we might see them.

    "Probably not ready for launch. And I talk about them with the knowledge that launch day is just another day for an MMO, I mean it's a super important day but we're committed to this. We will have worked on expansion content, post launch content for months into the game launch; we'll have already been working on stuff.

    I would rather put fewer really solid systems in now than put in a whole bunch of stuff that doesn't really work together, just to make launch day. We want the core of the game to be good, the core of the game to be fun, hundreds of hours of PvE gameplay, a great PvP system and then work on it from there.”

    With the introduction of these huge areas, one would expect a lot of content variety to be present that appeals to players who want to roam away from the main alliance-related content streams.

    "Exactly. If I'm tapped out, I’m high level. I've played through all the alliances, or I want to take a break from playing through the alliances and I want to go to some other high level content, I'll go there. And I'll know there are people soloing at max level. We probably won't use the term “raid” but a large group, large encounter, there will probably be people there recruiting for one. There’ll probably be a looking for group system so you can just go right there; those are the things you're doing. I can go do a daily, get a quest to do something right there, that's the kind of stuff you're talking about."
    Last edited by Tabbycat; 2013-04-04 at 08:33 PM.
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  12. #3932
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by papajohn4 View Post
    Raids is a challenging endgame content that is also a group content. When you play MMO you want a challenging group content. I understand that many people play MMOs as single player games, but that doesn't mean that MMO(massive Multiplayer) are designed to play that way. I am sure that if a game will release and offer to people the best gear available or whatever the ultimate carrot is by letting them play solo, this game would maybe have lot of million players.

    But what is popular doesn't mean is right also. Raids is the only challenging group content we know so far. If you know something else please share. Dungeons are also group content but in no way as challenging as raids.

    Again, is perfectly fine to ask/like whatever endgame you like(dailies, pet/achievement collection, exploration) but to question the people who asking the obvious(the only challenging group content known so far) for an MMO and to present them like they are "single-minded" is at least ironic.

    So the question is, what is the challenging group content of TESO? Will it focus on single-player endgame or it will focus on Group-content as endgame? Will you be able to chase the carrot alone or you will need group to do it? If I remember correctly in a video I saw about TESO, they said that the true game begins at 50 to show us that they focus a lot on the endgame.
    Raids aren't the only way of challenging content. Doesn't matter if it's 1 4 6 10 25 40 100 people in group to do something, the challenge depends on the skill required. If I designed an encounter, people will rage at me so hard.

    Challenging content based off gear isn't challenging as it's just gear, difficulty by skill is what should be how it is. If the designer can't make it challenging without a need for stat inflation, then it failed to be done with skill. Doesn't matter on the amount of people, it matters on the encounter and designed mechanics.

  13. #3933
    Seriously, I think todays MMO can evolve past "Raids"... Boring, time consuming, a simple case of trial and error... I'll have the Adventure Zones please. If people want challenging, endgame groups at the end-game, they can go somewhere else, I don't think its even in the developers intention to bring in the WoW raiding scene, its not ESO place.

  14. #3934
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy View Post
    Seriously, I think todays MMO can evolve past "Raids"... Boring, time consuming, a simple case of trial and error... I'll have the Adventure Zones please. If people want challenging, endgame groups at the end-game, they can go somewhere else, I don't think its even in the developers intention to bring in the WoW raiding scene, its not ESO place.
    I always enjoyed the sort of outdoor raids in AoC personally.
    World bosses tend to be a lot of fun too.

    I don't see the need for an instanced raid when you could get creative in completely new and unseen ways with outdoor raiding and world boss mechanics.
    Volan in rift comes to mind.
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  15. #3935
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy View Post
    Seriously, I think todays MMO can evolve past "Raids"... Boring, time consuming, a simple case of trial and error... I'll have the Adventure Zones please. If people want challenging, endgame groups at the end-game, they can go somewhere else, I don't think its even in the developers intention to bring in the WoW raiding scene, its not ESO place.
    You say that now... and three months post launch, you make a post complaining about how everyone is leaving the game and stopping playing because there "is nothing to do". It's only the story of every new MMO ever for the past five or so years -_-

    On a serious note, I welcome any attempt to differ from WoW's model of "raiding", or rather, "endgame group content", which to be honest is a much better (read: broader) term. I could definitely get behind fighting multiple enemies instead of one giant boss; after all, some of the most challenging encounters in WoW, too, have been those with a lot of enemies (Faction Champions, I'm looking at you) at the same time. What I hope they do NOT end up making is a giant slaughter/zergfest where everyone just runs around chaotically, trying to slice their way through droves of mobs that aren't actually all too dangerous except for their number. That's just not fun.

    But I think it's fair to first wait for more information. So far, a lot of the cries to either side have been rather speculative; it seems that the question of TESO endgame isn't 100% decided yet, and that's okay. I just hope that when they do decide, it's not a half-finished non-solution that tries to appease everybody and pleases no one.
    Last edited by Biomega; 2013-04-04 at 10:08 PM.

  16. #3936
    Quote Originally Posted by Tabbycat View Post
    thank you
    Thank you for posting this

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-04 at 11:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    You say that now... and three months post launch, you make a post complaining about how everyone is leaving the game and stopping playing because there "is nothing to do". It's only the story of every new MMO ever for the past five or so years -_-

    On a serious note, I welcome any attempt to differ from WoW's model of "raiding", or rather, "endgame group content", which to be honest is a much better (read: broader) term. I could definitely get behind fighting multiple enemies instead of one giant boss; after all, some of the most challenging encounters in WoW, too, have been those with a lot of enemies (Faction Champions, I'm looking at you) at the same time. What I hope they do NOT end up making is a giant slaughter/zergfest where everyone just runs around chaotically, trying to slice their way through droves of mobs that aren't actually all too dangerous except for their number. That's just not fun.

    But I think it's fair to first wait for more information. So far, a lot of the cries to either side have been rather speculative; it seems that the question of TESO endgame isn't 100% decided yet, and that's okay. I just hope that when they do decide, it's not a half-finished non-solution that tries to appease everybody and pleases no one.
    Faction champions one of THE most challenging encounters in WoW? really??

  17. #3937
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I was playing WoW since the beginning, and there was certainly "raiding" going on for random casuals - if you count Blackrock Spire, Stratholme, and Scholomance with 10 people "raiding". That was what you did back then, sort of the LFR-equivalent of the day. It took a long time to get done, and loot was generally horrible and in short supply.

    The transition into "proper" raiding came quickly for me, though by no means hardcore. You call WOTLK a gear grind - I think you have forgotten how it was to do MC with 40 people and get 2 item drops from a boss, 50% of which were useless garbage outclassed by Dire Maul blues. Talk about a gear grind! Of course, it all evolved from there, and you are definitely right that raiding was the most grindy during WOTLK, when separate lockouts effectively doubled your schedule.

    Of course the game wasn't made for raiders back then, and they were a tiny minority. But many things were different then, and even though it may not have been proper raiding, there definitely was a lot of endgame content to go through. It certainly took a lot of time to do it all! These days it would be considered utterly inaccessible, but that's hindsight for you.
    I will not to criticise every sentence in your posts, but lemme start of by saying a lot of the Battlegrounds and raids were implemented in small patches after WoW launched in 2004. Secondly you can't compare Blackrock Spire an equivalent of LFR. They were smaller raids/dungeons. And ZMO seem to be going by another name in TESO - Adventure Zones.

    A lot of people that got into WoW during the first year took forever to actually reach end game. There was a small minority that pushed into raid content. I mean sure raiding was going on I don't think MC was a gear grind compared to what we have these days. I mean sure you had limited drops and required a large group of 40, but it wasn't for drops that people went to these raids.

    Warsong Gulch and Arathi Basin were added to the game 6-7 months after launch. Ahn'Quiraj, Blackwing Lair, ZulGurub, Naxrammus were all added 10 months to more than a year after the game was launched. Sure Molten Core and Onyxia Lare were available at launch but most of the rest were added in months down the line.

    And I would hardly consider raiding to be anything what it has been since WTLK. They just seem to be glorified dungeons on a bigger scale. There is nothing epic about them. Sure they are more complex but not epic. Naxxramus when it first came out is what you would call a raid. 40 people storming an Undead Citadel is a raid. Not 10 people stomping through bosses on day 1 in WTLK.


    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    But again, if the TES crowd is all you cared about, why make it an MMO? Obviously you're trying to expand, to take in people that haven't stuck with the franchise for years. They even made 3rd person the default to attract people not ordinarily interested in the usual TES model! At the risk of repeating myself, I just don't think they intend to make TESO "Skyrim with PvP". There's got to be something new to distinguish the game as an actual MMO, not just a single player game with multiplayer components. MMOs live off of their populations, and they are in it for the long term. Single player games die down quickly, and keep some of their player base only through mods or DLC. If you want to make the investment of an MMO, with the architecture etc. required by it, you must have a way to keep people interested and playing. Or are you telling me that there's still a million people out there playing through unmodded Skyrim for the 10.000th time?
    I think you are miss understanding what I am trying to say. Not all MMOs need to be about raiding. Raiding isn't the be all and end all of any MMO. Sure you gave SWTOR as an example on why it failed, but it was due to lack of anything to do once you reached level cap. Similarly with GW2. However, that isn't the case with TESO. They have said that dungeons will be available. Its not like they are not any challenging content at end game. There are going to be adventure zones which are similar to raids.


    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That is an argument I hear surprisingly often, and I don't really get why people make it. OF COURSE I compare new games with WoW "today". I compare ANY product with its competitors as they are TODAY. Expecting everyone to repeat the same mistakes other people made, go through the same discoveries they made, is just ridiculous. Of course there's certain things a company has to learn when they first enter a market they previously didn't occupy; but that doesn't mean they have to start from scratch. The term "industry standard" comes to mind.

    I could again cite SWTOR: they decided not to have a LFD system, even though most competitors at the time had one. The reaction from the playerbase was obvious disappointment and frustration because they had to go back to a way of playing they had left behind with other games; ultimately, they had to implement the system anyway, but not after losing a lot of players. That's just one example, of course, but it illustrates the point well. You can't go back on these sorts of inventions. People have played with them for a time, gotten used to them, EXCPECT them. You can't just not have them, and try to discover them on your own. That's not how any other branch of the economy works, so why should games?

    "You don't get the complete package at day one", you say. You are right. But that sentence doesn't mean you start from zero and go from there; no, you start where your competition left off, and innovate from there. Why should people be expected to pick up your game at the cost of losing features they have had for a long time in other games? That maybe works if you trade it off for something completely new and unique, something so overpowering it makes you forget about other games. TESO doesn't have anything like that (nor does any other new game, but that's beside the point), so they better be AT LEAST AS GOOD as their competition.
    Again you miss understand me. All I am saying is its unfair to compare the amount of content available in a game that has been out for over 10 years to content in a game that is just being released. ZMO are obviously looking towards a smooth launch rather than trying to get in everything at launch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    There's certainly players like that, and it's a valid demographic. Not the biggest one, not the easiest one to cater to, but a demographic nonetheless. Why should they be excluded? Why not offer them something to chew on, while also offering other types of players other things, tailored more to their needs? Things should never be binary, options, modularity, variety, that's what people need, and that's how you keep a diverse playerbase. For that matter, I'd totally welcome a change in WoW's system, too. For the longest time we've had one raid mode; then two; lately, we've finally gone to three. I say even that isn't enough. Make it five, make it six! I think the only MMO that has done this to a good degree is D&DO, and it has been very positively received. In the long run, such customization is imo the only way to keep the maximum number of people happy and playing. And that is what we want, regardless of what type of player we are: we want people to play the game with us.
    One thing I've learnt from WoW all those years back was sure, there is more money in for the company the large and more popular the game is but at what cost I ask you? Just today I came across a thread on the WoW forums about the loss in culture in the game. The thing is when something niche goes main stream, you sell the heart and soul of what made the game main stream so that others that do not understand or value the game can get their enjoyment from it.

    I ain't saying how a person should enjoy his or her game or how they should play. All I am saying is the larger your target demographics, the harder it is to meet all their wants and needs. You don't need everyone and anyone playing your game.

    This is what we see with Blizzard these days. They are so unsure which direction to go. They decided going "old school" in Cata but when the subs fell down they scrapped those plans and all of a sudden you have a different direction. People felt entitled to "gear" cause they were paying, so Blizzard released a LFR. People cried the drop rate sucked, they got bonus loot rules and an increased drop rate. People whined that PVP gear was a pain to farm and was only exclusive to Arena Players, they made that easier to obtain via RBGs and more and then they changed that again.

    That is what you happen when you have so many different types of players telling you what to do. The best days in WoW were Vanilla and TBC without all the rose tinted glasses. Sure people found it a pain and a grind but you only got what you worked at. Things actually felt like a reward.

    At the same time I ain't against variety but too much and you have a hard time keeping everything in line. Sometimes it depends what works.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-05 at 12:09 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy View Post
    Seriously, I think todays MMO can evolve past "Raids"... Boring, time consuming, a simple case of trial and error... I'll have the Adventure Zones please. If people want challenging, endgame groups at the end-game, they can go somewhere else, I don't think its even in the developers intention to bring in the WoW raiding scene, its not ESO place.
    I think its high time too. Raids that we have these days are nothing compared to what we had back in the day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    You say that now... and three months post launch, you make a post complaining about how everyone is leaving the game and stopping playing because there "is nothing to do". It's only the story of every new MMO ever for the past five or so years -_-

    On a serious note, I welcome any attempt to differ from WoW's model of "raiding", or rather, "endgame group content", which to be honest is a much better (read: broader) term. I could definitely get behind fighting multiple enemies instead of one giant boss; after all, some of the most challenging encounters in WoW, too, have been those with a lot of enemies (Faction Champions, I'm looking at you) at the same time. What I hope they do NOT end up making is a giant slaughter/zergfest where everyone just runs around chaotically, trying to slice their way through droves of mobs that aren't actually all too dangerous except for their number. That's just not fun.

    But I think it's fair to first wait for more information. So far, a lot of the cries to either side have been rather speculative; it seems that the question of TESO endgame isn't 100% decided yet, and that's okay. I just hope that when they do decide, it's not a half-finished non-solution that tries to appease everybody and pleases no one.
    I think there is a difference between lack of end game content or any content for that matter and raids. Like you said in your earlier post, its all about reinventing the wheel and doing something different. I think its high time someone did something different. I think raids are a thing of the past. You only have to see how many of the current raiders can sit in one place without getting frustrated during progression nights. Sure you will have the hardcore vying for realm firsts and world firsts and top 100 or whatever, but after that how many actually just call it?

    That is one of the major reasons, we see a gradual nerf to raids over time cause people don't give a damn after some time. The raids we have these days are simply just more complex with more things to watch and adds to kill with all the other crap going on.

    I wouldn't even consider ToC a Raid. I don't even know what to call it honestly.

    You have Blizzard doing something similar to with their scenarios. I mean didn't GW2 come out with them or was it Rift with their dynamic events.

  18. #3938
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonheart View Post

    You have Blizzard doing something similar to with their scenarios. I mean didn't GW2 come out with them or was it Rift with their dynamic events.
    Lotro came out with those before these other games did

  19. #3939
    As Firor said, they aren't trying to beat WoW at their own game. They are trying to do something different with Adventure Zones. It will be large group content that will be instanced but it won't be a bunch of players whacking at an elite boss' ankles.
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  20. #3940
    Scarab Lord Loaf Lord's Avatar
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    I sure as hell hope the fight's aren't like faction champs. Even on heroic the fight was a CC snoozefest. On the ask me anything thread I was reading from a guy who went to pax, he said he killed bosses by CCing them and kiting while interrupting their big attack. That doesn't sound good to me, but I'll withhold final judgement until I get to play.
    Last edited by Loaf Lord; 2013-04-05 at 03:30 AM.

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