[Megathread] Elder Scrolls Online

[RoninaThorstone]

like discovering the abilities such as the sorcerer line, I like that. Also think it would have been better to not have levels

Yeah, what's the point of my characters level? I have so many other interesting things to level like armor, weapons, skill lines, guilds, racials... could have done without "character levels". I don't even pay attention to it when I am playing.

[Disciples]

Problem is most people don't care about leveling and questing. They just want to do endgame content with their friends. Leveling in an mmo is only half the game but they make it so long that most quit before they get to the other half. Look at WoW boosting to 90, they're aware people don't want to do that stuff. My dream mmo would be one where you start at end game, and then as optional content there is questing and exploration of the world that gives you cool cosmetic rewards. Since a lot of people do enjoy leveling and story and exploring a new world then they still have that. It would be nice to be able to "level" and form your character with abilities and skills through different options. Think of leveling up raids and dungeons that have tiers based on your "level".

[Therec]

People will be done with the leveling process eventually and will focus on the endgame the MMORPG has to offer... that's where most of the time is spent (eventually, for a large fraction of the players) and I expect that a proper reviewer at least get's to max-level and enganges in the endgame activities.

I agree with this on principle, I would like to see a few reviewers that made it to VR10 or even VR2 before stating their opinion. That being said, I do not think current end-game content will help ESO at all in reviewers eyes.

The first thing that hurts it is something you mentioned, which is VR content feeling like lazy design. For those who see the questing experience as a slog, once they hit 50 and find out they have to do the other 2 factions before they can do end-game, they will quit. It also makes leveling up alts an absolute bitch. This type of design is AMAZING for those who love the questing experience/depth as it gives them a ton of content, but anyone who was thinking "finally!" when they hit 50 is in for a very bad time. God help them if they decide they don't like a class at end-game. Once again, great for those who can't get enough of the quests, but anyone who was getting tired of them when they were about to hit 50 will be turned off quickly.

The other thing is the lack of current endgame content. If you don't like the cyrodill pvp, you're done until craglorn comes out. You've most likely done the 6 dungeons leveling to VR10, crafting isn't much endgame, most exploration and quests were also done just getting to VR10. As a reviewer basing there initial review before 50 and a second one after hitting VR10 a week ago, why would it ever go up in score?

[FunkyRaccoon]

Completely disagree, a game like Mass Effect blows away a game like SWTOR in terms of production and story telling. And I am not SWTOR hater, I liked the game. I am not a WoW hater either, I played WoW too many years to hate the game. However, today at this moment it is an average MMO (just like every other MMO) There are many other MMOs that do the MMO thing just as well as WoW. WoW does some things better but other MMOs do some things better. What puts WoW ahead of the pack is not polish but the community.

And WoW has gotten funny. Features they introduced, they seem to regret (flying, LFR), and seem to wish to backpedal on both. What's next? If the old-school guy who came back really wants to re-create Vanilla WoW, what else might be deemed regrettable? LFD? Pet Battles? City portals?

If people are crying about ESO mounts, imagine if WoW went back to "no ground mount until level 40"?

Granted, I'm still in a wait-and-see mode, but it does look like WoW devs wish to roll back some changes; which, of course can always be changed in the future. But at the moment, WoW seems more confused as to whom it wishes to cater than ESO.


"We want harder dungeons". Enter Cata. "Dungeons are too hard". Enter nerf bat. Make up your minds.

As for the boosts, I can see why they did. Many veteran players (including myself, if I'm allowed to as a "Wrath Baby") have many alts, for different reasons. I have most of my Loremaster, except for Outland (which I have a hard time bringing myself to do, that place is just messy). I did a lot of questing, horde-side, pre-Cata, and did it again post-Cata. While there's a few good stories (Rhea's Last Egg, Pamela wossname, the little girl ghost, and a few others) it's a slog to do the same things over again in that game. Hey, while I think Jade Forest is great, I can't bring myself to bring my 88 priest there - he's stuck doing dungeons all the way up, just the same as I got him to 88; he's NOT setting foot anywhere in Pandaria until I can buy him flying; I'll be more than happy to give a mage 100g to port me to the shrine when/if the time finally comes. He only exists as an alchemist to back up my monk jewelcrafter for making the four panther mounts (I already have the big black one that takes the other four - I made a point of making that first.) And that JC only exists to free up my Paladin to do other things, like support my Engineer in his making of his pets and mounts.

But really, it should not be offered to new players, that's just dumb. You should be forced to have at least one 90, just like you used to have to have a toon at level 55 in order to have a death knight.

[Sharuko]

Yeah, what's the point of my characters level? I have so many other interesting things to level like armor, weapons, skill lines, guilds, racials... could have done without "character levels". I don't even pay attention to it when I am playing.

I think these game developers have research that says that leveling keeps players interested more than games with no levels. Look at WoW, after so many expansions they could have said "no more levels" but they continue to have levels, in fact, the recent expansions will have 10 levels.

Look at GW2, it is one game that levels make absolutely no sense in. You level and then when you go to low level zones you are brought down to the zones level, so what is the point of levels? I think there is something to leveling that keep players interested, which is why we keep seeing it over and over again at least in themepark games.

A lot of the complaints I hear with ESO are pretty complaints about themepark MMO design.

[Therec]

Problem is most people don't care about leveling and questing. They just want to do endgame content with their friends. Leveling in an mmo is only half the game but they make it so long that most quit before they get to the other half. Look at WoW boosting to 90, they're aware people don't want to do that stuff. My dream mmo would be one where you start at end game, and then as optional content there is questing and exploration of the world that gives you cool cosmetic rewards. Since a lot of people do enjoy leveling and story and exploring a new world then they still have that. It would be nice to be able to "level" and form your character with abilities and skills through different options. Think of leveling up raids and dungeons that have tiers based on your "level".

Zenimax MUST MUST MUST MUST reduce the barrier to entry if they have any hope of bringing in new players 3 months from now. With the way the game is set up, if you did not start playing with your friends when it came out, you are going to have a lonely experience for a long time. I don't care what they do, maybe sync levels of high characters in quests/dungeons like FFXIV, maybe making grouping with someone who already did the quest actually possible, boost dungeon/pvp xp, maybe make it so you don't have to spend 60 hours+ to hit max level. They've got to do something. What they have now is not good design for "late to the party" players, and will make a lot of players want to play another game.

[Sharuko]

Problem is most people don't care about leveling and questing.

Honestly I think for the most casual players, leveling is all there is. You level a character and keep leveling alts. And do things like BGs which Blizzard has said is by far the most popular activity in the game. It is probably why you see a jump in subscribers during a new expansion, and then you see a big drop. Not everyone likes the end game grind. Some people like to level experience the story do some side things and move on.

However, in terms of ESO there is one thing I don't agree with and never have agreed with is the VR10 being max level. Regardless of what others are saying and even reviewers I think that is the major issue for the game. Other things are minor.

[Disciples]

Zenimax MUST MUST MUST MUST reduce the barrier to entry if they have any hope of bringing in new players 3 months from now. With the way the game is set up, if you did not start playing with your friends when it came out, you are going to have a lonely experience for a long time. I don't care what they do, maybe sync levels of high characters in quests/dungeons like FFXIV, maybe making grouping with someone who already did the quest actually possible, boost dungeon/pvp xp, maybe make it so you don't have to spend 60 hours+ to hit max level. They've got to do something. What they have now is not good design for "late to the party" players, and will make a lot of players want to play another game.

I wouldn't have gotten so burnt out on questing if the dungeons had gave me ANY xp. I didn't see my bar move one little bit in the dungeons I did. I need variety, and since I don't pvp I didn't receive any. But you're right, I have a feeling they'll see the data they have and notice a LOT probably stopped playing around VR1 and VR2 and I could see them dropping the requirements for end game because of it. Right now I unsubbed but I have like 9 days left so I'm going to use those to get to 50 then keep an eye on this thread and see if they make some changes. If they do I'll be hitting the sub button easily.

[Kelimbror]

However, in terms of ESO there is one thing I don't agree with and never have agreed with is the VR10 being max level. Regardless of what others are saying and even reviewers I think that is the major issue for the game. Other things are minor.

I hope you mean that VR10 is too much and that the content should be provided as after the cap extra, which would provide gear, more skills, etc. I don't think people should be forced to level 3 times to see end game personally. And I love leveling in this game.

[RoninaThorstone]

I think these game developers have research that says that leveling keeps players interested more than games with no levels. Look at WoW, after so many expansions they could have said "no more levels" but they continue to have levels, in fact, the recent expansions will have 10 levels.

Look at GW2, it is one game that levels make absolutely no sense in. You level and then when you go to low level zones you are brought down to the zones level, so what is the point of levels? I think there is something to leveling that keep players interested, which is why we keep seeing it over and over again at least in themepark games.

A lot of the complaints I hear with ESO are pretty complaints about themepark MMO design.

However, there's SO many things you are "leveling up" in TESO already that your 1-50 character leveling seems a bit arbitrary and unnecessary.
I mean, I know that the "drip" of accomplishment from leveling is powerful but... in this game, you have so many other things "dripping" that your character level is pretty much lost.

They could have pulled this off with just the 1-50 in skills / passives.

[Sharuko]

I hope you mean that VR10 is too much and that the content should be provided as after the cap extra, which would provide gear, more skills, etc. I don't think people should be forced to level 3 times to see end game personally. And I love leveling in this game.

Yeah that is what I mean. I wish the VR levels worked more like Paragon levels in D3, some minor stat boosts and more epeen related, instead of actual "max level".

[Disciples]

I don't think people should be forced to level 3 times to see end game personally. And I love leveling in this game.

This is the big issue. If the max level was 50 not 50x3 I wouldn't have been bitching there was no content. I would have happily been trying a new faction with a new race and a new class until craglorn comes out. I like alts, I keep hearing about how fun DK's are and I see sorcs destroying things, I'd like to try them out. But if I do, then I will have 2 or 3 classes that are all 1/3 of the way to end game. I think it's more than I'm burned out questing on my NB, and want a change.

- - - Updated - - -

However, there's SO many things you are "leveling up" in TESO already that your 1-50 character leveling seems a bit arbitrary and unnecessary.
I mean, I know that the "drip" of accomplishment from leveling is powerful but... in this game, you have so many other things "dripping" that your character level is pretty much lost.

They could have pulled this off with just the 1-50 in skills / passives.

The Secret World pulled off no leveling pretty well. You have access to all classes in the game based on skill points. And you get skill points by just playing the game. So you could just "level" one class by unlocking all the skill points for it by questing and experiencing the story and exploring. But if you want, you can keep "leveling" other classes, and you could unlock all if you want since even when you're done the story you can go back and redo any quests you want. They just have a daily timer on them so you can't grind one.

[FunkyRaccoon]

I think these game developers have research that says that leveling keeps players interested more than games with no levels. Look at WoW, after so many expansions they could have said "no more levels" but they continue to have levels, in fact, the recent expansions will have 10 levels.

Look at GW2, it is one game that levels make absolutely no sense in. You level and then when you go to low level zones you are brought down to the zones level, so what is the point of levels? I think there is something to leveling that keep players interested, which is why we keep seeing it over and over again at least in themepark games.

A lot of the complaints I hear with ESO are pretty complaints about themepark MMO design.

Heh. Leveling. My favourite tabletop RPG only really has 5 levels (a 6th is possible, if you want your game to go that long and the PCs to go that far), because .. because of the way it's designed - and it does include deleveling. If you do something cowardly, dishonorable, or something like that, yes, you can be stripped of your rank (it's a purely social thing, really. A Garou who ditches his pack in a fight or gets drunk and loose-lipped around Wyrm agents deserve their fuzzy butts kicked.)

Footnote - I don't think ESO is designed for us to want lots of alts, as in WoW. with its profession restriction.

[Sharuko]

This is the big issue. If the max level was 50 not 50x3 I wouldn't have been bitching there was no content. I would have happily been trying a new faction with a new race and a new class until craglorn comes out. I like alts, I keep hearing about how fun DK's are and I see sorcs destroying things, I'd like to try them out. But if I do, then I will have 2 or 3 classes that are all 1/3 of the way to end game. I think it's more than I'm burned out questing on my NB, and want a change.

I agree with you 100%, if that were the case I would happily level a new alt or even wait for Craglorn. But right now I have a V2 character that I feel forced to level with even thought I have 200+ hours with the character. If it were optional like in D3 with the paragon levels or daily rep in WoW, I would have still done it instead of feeling rushed and forced to do it. It would be optional but not necessary and I am sure a lot would have been fine to keep doing it.

And they could also have made it so that when you hit 50. You can go and do anything like in Skyrim in the other faction zones, instead of making it a more linear experience. They had the perfect opportunity to do it, but didn't for some reason.

[Speedlance]

It's time the MMO developers think another way. First of all, leveling from 1-50 or 1-60 is outdated, 70% of all who try the new mmos are trying to find a new game because they're sick of the other once, whether it's wow or swtor. Starting over with no power and no abilities and a long dreadfully timeconsuming leveling experience is not the most energizing feeling you should have in an mmo, specially for the once who have played mmos for a long time.

[Sharuko]

If people are crying about ESO mounts, imagine if WoW went back to "no ground mount until level 40"?

But really, it should not be offered to new players, that's just dumb. You should be forced to have at least one 90, just like you used to have to have a toon at level 55 in order to have a death knight.

Yeah I agree, the whole horse thing is really over blown. I have a fast horse and rarely use it because of the way the zones are designed. And the fact that I have the Orc racial and am fast.

[Therec]

I hope you mean that VR10 is too much and that the content should be provided as after the cap extra, which would provide gear, more skills, etc. I don't think people should be forced to level 3 times to see end game personally. And I love leveling in this game.

That's EXACTLY what they should have done. You hit 50? GREAT! You can do PvP, some tough dungeons, or just wait until Craglorn and be good to go when it comes out. If you still love questing you can do the awesome content of the other 2 factions and gain skill points, cool costumes/gear, etc.

Right now if you get tired of doing quests and you're nowhere near VR10 you might as well stop playing b/c all announced future content is gated behind it.

[FunkyRaccoon]

It's time the MMO developers think another way. First of all, leveling from 1-50 or 1-60 is outdated, 70% of all who try the new mmos are trying to find a new game because they're sick of the other once, whether it's wow or swtor. Starting over with no power and no abilities and a long dreadfully timeconsuming leveling experience is not the most energizing feeling you should have in an mmo, specially for the once who have played mmos for a long time.

It's just a holdover from most tabletop games; though in those, leveling wasn't that big a deal, except you got more spells and abilities or whatever (or in AD&D you might be able to use a spell more than once a day or something.) As I mentioned above, W:tA only had 5, maybe 6 levels, max. You'd be given experience points for things you did, plus your Honour, Glory and Wisdom gains or losses, and XP points could be spent on things you wished your character to get better at (and it had better have a justification or something for it. I have no problem if your lupus wants to be a computer genius, but he'd better either enroll in school, or have a Glass Walker buddy who is willing to teach him - as an ST, I wouldn't allow him to just suddenly go from wolf to nerd.)

And yes, ESO feels to me like an RPG with computer-game elements, rather than a computer game with some RPG elements. It speaks to people like me, who appreciate that sort of thing, I guess.

[Therec]

Honestly lvl 50 feels like a "false" max level. You don't unlock anything unique from it. The quests could be done on another character at lower level, the dungeons as well, pvp could be done before, and craglorn is gated at VR10. It's like VR is "New Game +" for ESO and if you want to try out any new content you must complete "New Game +" mode.

[Okacz]

I'm pretty sure Angry Joe lives of his interweb-fame ... so he's getting paid for it. He's not a real reviewer, he just shouts out his opinion about sutff he doesn't like and he's very, very biased.
It's just not a valid source of information, it's just entertainment ... I just don't like the argument "Angry Joe gave this game 5 out of 10 points so it sucks! I was right all along!"

I agree Joe is sometimes quite biased. But a review is only good if it IS subjective. You cannot measure any game in numbers, you can only measure it in subjective fun, which is why Angry Joe shouts a whole lot at bad games.

You can't deny he did actually hit the problems of the game. Grouping is very bad, playing beta with my friends quickly turned into everybody just scattering around, sticking in a group only slowed us down. The world lacks "immersion" even more than WoW, in Mists of Pandaria you did have some very awesome moments while I can't remember one from ESO. The combat feels quite good, but weak camera and responsiveness (I think only WoW got that right, don't know how is that possible) ruin it a lot. And yes, cashgrabbing is all over the place.

What I like is that this game really squeezed as much of Elder Scrolls as possible, which is something Joe overlooked. You can't have a MMO where players just casually murder each other and lock others with barrels inside buildings. Placing objects to pick up around the game, lore books that are actually interesting and smart crafting system is as much as they could have done.

And to the people saying "he played this for only about 20-30 hours, he knows shit" - screw that. If a game is bad for 20-30 hours and then miraclously gets good, I still waster 20-30 hours playing a shitty game. Not saying ESO is shitty - it's just nothing new in my books. Rift is pretty much the same and costs you exactly 0 dollars.