[Megathread] Elder Scrolls Online

[corebit]

"Unity Group Frame"

heh, the UI mods are already taking care of my concerns, nice

Ooohh, I found another must-have addon (at least for me anyways)

Subtitles - in Wykkyd's Framework
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info8...Framework.html



Now I don't have to worry about missing NPC voice chatter during quests because a random guy just happened to kill mobs right beside me . Yes, I know you can enable NPC dialogue in the chat, but this is soooo much better.

[Deleted]

I agree with the people that say TESO must have restrictions and can't allow the freedom single player TES games allow. However that holds true only because TESO was designed from the very start to be 100% a theme park MMO. With a completely different approach that relies heavily on sandbox elements you could preserve many of the freedoms a single player Elder scrolls game offers and I would argue you could even expand on some of them simply because the interactions between players could be much more varied and believable then what a scripted NPC can possibly offer.

So I think it's not true that you can't have the amount of freedom of single players Elder scrolls games in a MMO, but ZOS designed TESO from the ground up to make such freedoms impossible as they would be in complete contrast with the basic systems of the game.

[Materia]

I agree with the people that say TESO must have restrictions and can't allow the freedom single player TES games allow. However that holds true only because TESO was designed from the very start to be 100% a theme park MMO. With a completely different approach that relies heavily on sandbox elements you could preserve many of the freedoms a single player Elder scrolls game offers and I would argue you could even expand on some of them simply because the interactions between players could be much more varied and believable then what a scripted NPC can possibly offer.

So I think it's not true that you can't have the amount of freedom of single players Elder scrolls games in a MMO, but ZOS designed TESO from the ground up to make such freedoms impossible as they would be in complete contrast with the basic systems of the game.

Outside of the interaction with objects and sometimes rather odd physics in the singleplayer games, there's nothing really sandbox about the single player games either. Without mods, you can't build, destroy or have any real effect on the world outside of the quests and what the story allows. When you kill somebody in an ES game, the only thing that changes is your ability to interact with that person.

The single player games are as much of a themepark as this MMO. The difference is the MMO is toned down with object interactivity and physics. That's about it.

After my experience in the beta, I feel that this MMO nails the "Elder scrolls" formula quite well. The interace, NPC story telling, ambiance, music, combat, crafting, exploration - It's all very Elder Scrolls.

[corebit]

With a completely different approach that relies heavily on sandbox elements you could preserve many of the freedoms a single player Elder scrolls game offers and I would argue you could even expand on some of them simply because the interactions between players could be much more varied and believable then what a scripted NPC can possibly offer.

'Sandbox' seems to be a thing people like to say a lot these days, but it rarely pans out. Unless we see an example of a truely successful one (we shall see if SOE's EQN/L succeeds or not), I don't think any big developer is going to put millions of dollars of investment 'just to experiment'.

If you were in Zenimax's shoes, would you take that risk? Also keep in mind that ESO has already taken several risks even in the themepark space with things like first-person perspective, soft-lock targeting, freeform classes, and no auction-house. It's a larger departure from the usual tab-targeting, rows of hotbars, and raid treadmill game space that WoW has a monopoly on.

[Slaughty8]

Ooohh, I found another must-have addon (at least for me anyways)

Subtitles - in Wykkyd's Framework
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info8...Framework.html



Now I don't have to worry about missing NPC voice chatter during quests because a random guy just happened to kill mobs right beside me . Yes, I know you can enable NPC dialogue in the chat, but this is soooo much better.

Aww man, I must install it too. Subtitles in games forever <3

[Bookofblade]

Cant almost any issue people have with the lore be explained by the time gap between ESO and every other ES game? <insert race here> isnt <insert trait here> enough, maybe things happened during the ESO timeline to push them more toward how you know them to be in the other games, because they are that way now doesnt mean they always had to be that way.

[Dhrizzle]

I agree with the people that say TESO must have restrictions and can't allow the freedom single player TES games allow. However that holds true only because TESO was designed from the very start to be 100% a theme park MMO. With a completely different approach that relies heavily on sandbox elements you could preserve many of the freedoms a single player Elder scrolls game offers and I would argue you could even expand on some of them simply because the interactions between players could be much more varied and believable then what a scripted NPC can possibly offer.

So I think it's not true that you can't have the amount of freedom of single players Elder scrolls games in a MMO, but ZOS designed TESO from the ground up to make such freedoms impossible as they would be in complete contrast with the basic systems of the game.

The experience has to be on rails to some extent. If the whole world was open from the start that means the content would have to be doable by low level characters, so increases in power would either have to be minimal or the content would quickly become trivial as you level. The only way to truly make it sandboxy would be having the vast majority of content player-driven or hide everything behind instances that scale to your level.

I don't think there's a market for a truly sandbox fantasy MMO, at least not one that would support a AAA title such as the Elder Scrolls, but from what I experienced in the beta it certainly allows you to go off and do your own thing more than the Everquest clones (WoW, RIFT and SWtOR) and doesn't feel as "gamey" as GW2, so it should hit a sweet spot that isn't currently covered in the major MMOs.

[Deleted]

Cant almost any issue people have with the lore be explained by the time gap between ESO and every other ES game? <insert race here> isnt <insert trait here> enough, maybe things happened during the ESO timeline to push them more toward how you know them to be in the other games, because they are that way now doesnt mean they always had to be that way.

This is true. I mean we are talking millennias at the end of the day...
Or are we?

More than the lore, it's the spell system and class system that really bugs me.
But I have to try to see if it feels as bad as I think it does.

[Dhrizzle]

Cant almost any issue people have with the lore be explained by the time gap between ESO and every other ES game? <insert race here> isnt <insert trait here> enough, maybe things happened during the ESO timeline to push them more toward how you know them to be in the other games, because they are that way now doesnt mean they always had to be that way.

That's what I was thinking, the idea that all the races failed to develop over the course of centuries seems daft to me. Heck, the fact they've changed so little over time is a bit far-fetched.

[Deleted]

'Sandbox' seems to be a thing people like to say a lot these days, but it rarely pans out. Unless we see an example of a truely successful one (we shall see if SOE's EQN/L succeeds or not), I don't think any big developer is going to put millions of dollars of investment 'just to experiment'.

If you were in Zenimax's shoes, would you take that risk? Also keep in mind that ESO has already taken several risks even in the themepark space with things like first-person perspective, soft-lock targeting, freeform classes, and no auction-house. It's a larger departure from the usual tab-targeting, rows of hotbars, and raid treadmill game space that WoW has a monopoly on.

If I had to spend money I would definitely use the same approach as Zenimax. I don't even think it is a bad approach. All I was trying to say is that the opinion that ESO can't have xyz feature from the single player TES games because it can't work in a MMO is not correct. From a business standpoint it would probably be a suicide to make a game that has all those features, both because it would be very complicated and expansive to make and because it would probably appeal to a smaller audience. It was just the categorical "It can't be done in a MMO." that annoyed me.

On a side note, just for the record, what my ideal TES MMO would look like: You have a world with the lore and beautiful detailed landscapes of Tamriel where you are just a common nobody and not the Dragonborn or Nerevarine or whatever. You can choose to become the town blacksmith, the guard that catches thieves (or a thief), a bandit in the woods, a rich trader, a legionnaire fighting the enemies if the Empire, a Deadra worshiper who executes the commands of his chosen deity, a bookworm in the Mage guild or aim big to become for example the leader of a Great House or a champion of the Imperial Arena. Pretty much a pure sandbox where you live a life in the world of Tamriel, nothing more, nothing less. I would really enjoy such a game, together with the other 20 players who would want to play it.

[corebit]

Outside of the interaction with objects and sometimes rather odd physics in the singleplayer games, there's nothing really sandbox about the single player games either. Without mods, you can't build, destroy or have any real effect on the world outside of the quests and what the story allows. When you kill somebody in an ES game, the only thing that changes is your ability to interact with that person.

The single player games are as much of a themepark as this MMO. The difference is the MMO is toned down with object interactivity and physics. That's about it.

After my experience in the beta, I feel that this MMO nails the "Elder scrolls" formula quite well. The interace, NPC story telling, ambiance, music, combat, crafting, exploration - It's all very Elder Scrolls.

Very much this. Claiming that the single player games "have so much more freedom" than ESO is just plain false. You get to kill NPCs in the single player games though! yay!

The only point of contention in ESO is the on-rails starter zone. But most tutorial/starter zones are designed to teach newcomers: what about gamers who have never played any ES game or MMO, and ESO may be their first game? Designers have to think about that potential audience as well. So that little on-rails experience may not be for YOU, but it may very helpful to Joe The Total Noob.

And as people said over and over, once you leave that starter island, you are free to go pretty much wherever you want, with very few limitations

On a side note, just for the record, what my ideal TES MMO would look like: You have a world with the lore and beautiful detailed landscapes of Tamriel where you are just a common nobody and not the Dragonborn or Nerevarine or whatever. You can choose to become the town blacksmith, the guard that catches thieves (or a thief), a bandit in the woods, a rich trader, a legionnaire fighting the enemies if the Empire, a Deadra worshiper who executes the commands of his chosen deity, a bookworm in the Mage guild or aim big to become for example the leader of a Great House or a champion of the Imperial Arena. Pretty much a pure sandbox where you live a life in the world of Tamriel, nothing more, nothing less. I would really enjoy such a game, together with the other 20 players who would want to play it.

I would LOVE to have that as well. It would be my dream MMO. But I am afraid we will have to wait a long time before more sandbox MMOs become the norm.

[Deleted]

If I had to spend money I would definitely use the same approach as Zenimax. I don't even think it is a bad approach. All I was trying to say is that the opinion that ESO can't have xyz feature from the single player TES games because it can't work in a MMO is not correct. From a business standpoint it would probably be a suicide to make a game that has all those features, both because it would be very complicated and expansive to make and because it would probably appeal to a smaller audience. It was just the categorical "It can't be done in a MMO." that annoyed me.

On a side note, just for the record, what my ideal TES MMO would look like: You have a world with the lore and beautiful detailed landscapes of Tamriel where you are just a common nobody and not the Dragonborn or Nerevarine or whatever. You can choose to become the town blacksmith, the guard that catches thieves (or a thief), a bandit in the woods, a rich trader, a legionnaire fighting the enemies if the Empire, a Deadra worshiper who executes the commands of his chosen deity, a bookworm in the Mage guild or aim big to become for example the leader of a Great House or a champion of the Imperial Arena. Pretty much a pure sandbox where you live a life in the world of Tamriel, nothing more, nothing else. I would really enjoy such a game, together with the other 20 players who would want to play it.

I'd be one of those 20
I actually downloaded alternate starts in skyrim as soon as I found out to be dragonborne at level 4 after my third quest
Morrowind had a much better approach to it.
But then again, morrowind had a much better everything.

[corebit]

That's what I was thinking, the idea that all the races failed to develop over the course of centuries seems daft to me. Heck, the fact they've changed so little over time is a bit far-fetched.

This is not unique to Elder Scrolls, it happens in plenty other franchises. Take Star Wars for example, their whole lore spans thousands of years, but their technology never improves, every race culture never changes, planets are all the same, etc. They are all frozen in a time capsule.

[Deleted]

Aww man, I must install it too. Subtitles in games forever <3

especially for us non-native english speakers ... I had a hard time understanding some of the NPCs, but I still want to play the game with the original voice actors

[smackyslap]

This is not unique to Elder Scrolls, it happens in plenty other franchises. Take Star Wars for example, their whole lore spans thousands of years, but their technology never improves, every race culture never changes, planets are all the same, etc. They are all frozen in a time capsule.

Oh man just picture a steam punk elder scrolls game it could be the best thing or the worst thing ever. maybe if the dwemer were still around

[mickybrighteyes]

This is not unique to Elder Scrolls, it happens in plenty other franchises. Take Star Wars for example, their whole lore spans thousands of years, but their technology never improves, every race culture never changes, planets are all the same, etc. They are all frozen in a time capsule.

Isn't the excuse in SW that they've already developed all the technology they can safely control? All the better stuff either displays very limited performance boost or causes some horrible battle/conflict that results in the loss of the discovery?

[corebit]

Isn't the excuse in SW that they've already developed all the technology they can safely control? All the better stuff either displays very limited performance boost or causes some horrible battle/conflict that results in the loss of the discovery?

It is not an excuse. Franchises use the "time capsule" effect because they want to preserve the identity and feel of that universe as much as possible. Deviate/evolve too much and you have the risk where that universe ceases to become recognizable. That's why a lot of SW fans HATE a lot of the EU crazy stuff like the Yuuzhan Vong. It felt nothing like Star Wars to them (I'm one of them)

[derpkitteh]

As soon as I saw Moon Sugar referenced as a fucking sweet.


I knew this game was fucking garbage.

moon sugar being a sweet seems ok, it could be like an alcoholic sweet irl. when the sench tigers eat the rats that have been eating it, they get drowzy and dopey. i don't think moon sugar itself has ever been an actual drug, but when refined into skooma that's when it's bad.

[Sharuko]

While I think The Fiend was going overboard by a lot with his tone and argument, I agree with his core premise.

This game is NOT Elder Scrolls, not by any stretch of the imagination. The lore IS being shat on, quite excessively so, and if you are a real TES fan you will really take issue with that, most of us anyway.

Like I stated in my little impression post a few pages ago, the game has numerous other issues that make it worse than comparative MMOs in my opinion, but where it most certainly fails is as a TES title. It has none of the immersion, atmosphere or freedom that the TES games offer, and that is - like it or not - what TES players look for.

If you approach the game as "oh cool i get to play a generic MMO in this universe and not care about the lore?" then yeah, you'll enjoy it for a time. Any other approach, such as "let's compare it to any TES game ever" or "let's compare it to the best MMOs on the market" is not in TESO's favour, sadly.

That just isn't true at all, if you think "lore is being shat on", please list exactly why you think so. And do you also think lore was shat on in Oblivion because it was. I like this post from /r/teslore from one of the most informed posters on lore.

The lore in it isn't as bad as people say. Most (most!) of the complaints can be put down to how terribly Zenimax initially represented itself, how little context we have to a lot of the information they do give us (y'know, a great deal of it makes more sense in context), and, at this point, the bandwagon of ESO-bashing. It's become so popular and commonplace to ESO-bash that people even do it when there's really nothing wrong. Zenimax can't even do something genuinely interesting and fitting without somebody complaining.

Now, somebody's going to roll in and give me a list of what they think of as the more genuine complaints, and I won't be able to dismiss all of them, because yes, the game does have some problems that are genuine, but honestly, I don't think that it does moreso than any other TES game. Oblivion and Skyrim — and Morrowind, if you played Daggerfall — all had lore problems, wherein they either:

A) Took a different but reasonable take on something

or

B) Outright fucked up

Just like any other TES game, ESO has a bit of both. The flimsy treatment of Cyrod's jungles, say. But we've learned to deal with stuff like that, and we know how to twist it around to our vision. Just like any other TES game, ESO has problems, but we can work with them.

Honestly, the biggest 'real' problems in ESO, from what I hear from the people who played in the more recent beta surges, are gameplay complaints. Too much level zoning, that kind of thing.

Please don't speak for "real TES fans" you don't represent us in any way, shape or form.

[derpkitteh]

i honestly hope they get rid of tiber septim changing the climate of cyrodiil. that just sounds fucking retarded.