View Poll Results: Should wealth be redistributed?

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  • Yes

    203 26.85%
  • No

    553 73.15%
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  1. #761
    Quote Originally Posted by mea View Post
    No doubt, it should - it's just too hard to determine precisely how as effort and innovation aren't purely measurable.
    It's pretty well determined in capitalism. The willingness of others to pay you shows how much your labor/service/product is worth.

    It's impossible for any board of the smartest people in the world to determine it any better.
    Last edited by Diurdi; 2012-05-05 at 10:23 AM.

  2. #762
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleficus View Post
    Fixed that for ya..and in the US, poverty has not really been reduced despite TRILLIONS of dollars thrown at it.
    Poverty is an accelerator of a shitty sociaty, doesn't matter how you cut it.
    Poverty makes people desperate, desperate people do stupid shit.

    Lets look at sex trafficking for example, a great majority of these girls that get treated as sex slaves are poor and simply just unlucky to be born into the wrong sociaty. Ever driven to Czech Rep from Germany? It's an ungodly sight man(at least when I did) all these fucking 16-17 year old girls from eastern europe standing by their shitty little "love shacks".

    Fuck I'd be willing to pay even more taxes if it meant those girls could have been brought up differently and avoided ending up like that, eastern europe isn't even that bad compared to a lot of other places in the world. Take a look at every shithole we have in this world, the great majority of them are poverty ridden.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  3. #763
    but if a person earned billions during war years, by "cheating" economy, you know, buying metal for example, then reselling it during war, and all that because he had friends in high places to tell him what's going to increase (in price) what's decrease, then i wouldn't mind getting some of his money ))
    That is insider trading, and illegal.
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  4. #764
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    That is insider trading, and illegal.
    Insider trading isn't always wrong though. Especially in the example laid out by the person you quoted, his act actually helped society. He bought metals in the pre-war time, when it was plentiful, and sold it when there was a much higher need for the metal during the war. He moved the metal from a time where it was less needed to a time where it was more needed.

  5. #765
    The bit where he got inside (usually confidential) information and used it to make a profit is, however illegal. If he made the investment using publically available information or his own assumptions it would be totally fine.
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  6. #766
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    The bit where he got inside (usually confidential) information and used it to make a profit is, however illegal. If he made the investment using publically available information or his own assumptions it would be totally fine.
    I understand it is illegal right now, but the question is if it should be. Because clearly if he had not used this inside info, society would've been worse off.

  7. #767
    One could argue that he is doing society a disservice by restricting the metal supply and holding it to ransom for a greatly inflated price.
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  8. #768
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    One could argue that he is doing society a disservice by restricting the metal supply and holding it to ransom for a greatly inflated price.
    No, you could not argue that. It's exactly the opposite. He's preserving metal from a time when it is abundant to be consumed in a time when it is scarce, and makes a profit in between.

    He "saves" the metal from being consumed by people who are unaware of the coming greater need of the metal in the future.

  9. #769
    My Grandfather lived through WWII, fought to survive as his house was bombed and lived in East Berlin (The bad part) where Russian soldiers would regularly come though the streets and steal people away. When he migrated to Australia he worked in a printing facility for the modern equiv. of about ~$4 an hour. over more than a decade he was promoted and become the foreman of the plant. But was fired, personally by the owner, after he lost his thumb in a printing press. He then trained in agriculture, but due to the racist nature of the 80s in Australia he barely could get a job despite his rather in depth knowledge and skills. He is currently 80+ and owns a home worth ~350,000 and works full time as a grounds manager (~$30) - 39% in taxes a year. As the pension in Australia is actually not enough to cover the rates and body corp fees for his house.

    You tell me is this fair, when the CEO of MQ Bank makes mores more in an HOUR than what my grandfather and I BOTH make in a year combined? (I have a Bpsy and a LTCL)

    There needs to be a redistribution of power and a margin of wealth in Australia.
    Last edited by Rekindled; 2012-05-05 at 11:51 AM. Reason: missed a word
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  10. #770
    Quote Originally Posted by Rekindled View Post
    You tell me is this fair, when the CEO of MQ Bank makes mores more in an HOUR than what my grandfather and I BOTH make in a year combined? (I have a Bpsy and a LTCL)
    Well they hardly make more in an hour. But yes, it's fair. Ofcourse it was unfair that your grandfather was discriminated against, but remember that those who discriminated also lost potential money as they didn't hire your grandfather. A multimilion dollar salary for a CEO is fair, as those who pay for it do so voluntarily because they want that specific CEO.

  11. #771
    I am also not suggesting that the Government come in and say GIVE ME YO MONEY to the top 10%, but how about they pay the tax rate they are meant to pay?

    $54,550 plus 45c for each $1 over $180,000

    However, SMH recently stated that those earning over $2mil within Australia pay an effective 12-14% for monies over 180,000. That is wrong.

    While the rich get richer the poor get poorer. I don't have an army of lawyers and accountants. I can't afford one of either, I still have more than 100k in student debt AND I AM STILL STUDYING! I have never been unemployed a day in my life, I work hard, I have learnt as much as I can, worked as hard as I can. When I was 'made redundant' at roughly the same time i fractured my foot and asked for 3 weeks off, I was forced to wait tables for rent. As someone who has more letters after his name than there are letters in my name, I was flabbergasted.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-05 at 12:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    Well they hardly make more in an hour. But yes, it's fair. Ofcourse it was unfair that your grandfather was discriminated against, but remember that those who discriminated also lost potential money as they didn't hire your grandfather. A multimilion dollar salary for a CEO is fair, as those who pay for it do so voluntarily because they want that specific CEO.

    In 2006 he made 36k an hour. This was highlighted in a news piece when a superannuation fund that his corporation managed went bust, after MQ invested the money in a trust that (what's the word?) Did not exist.... The reporters highlighted that if he would outsource the job while he took a months vacation, the 200 affected would be more than re-payed.

    And for anyone who is about to say "well he didn't lose the money" Well who did, someone is responsible, and the buck is supposed to stops somewhere.

    The current CEO makes 3x that amount.
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  12. #772
    Nobody should get the same, some people just don't deserve it pure and simple and some jobs don't really warrent high pay. I would be however in favour regrading what certain jobs should earn. CEO's should still earn high above average, but not the ridiculous amounts that they shouldn't need to spend. But careers in the emergency services should definitly earn more (nurses, firemen, police) and jobs that keep everything rolling (the power industry, production and transport of goods).
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    We force stuff on kids all the time, no one ever cares until there's a penis involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    What are you talking about?
    This is AMERICA you and I live in. We would have people lining up by the thousands to go on missions to conquer this new nation of worm monsters.

  13. #773
    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    Ofcourse it was unfair that your grandfather was discriminated against, but remember that those who discriminated also lost potential money as they didn't hire your grandfather..
    I will point out that your opportunity cost argument does not hold up as the job was filled within a week at almost `/12 the cost.
    More details are, with old printers the ink that they used was highly toxic, if he was to return to work and get even a small amount into his bloodstream he would die. Plain and simple, the doctor pointed out that he should not return for a month+ as that is how long it would take for the wound to fully heal, even bandaged it was risky.

    He, being the work Nazi he is (haha seewhatididthere) only asked for a week, he had never had a day off, other than when his kids were born and always worked OT for free (as did pretty much everyone because there was no fair work Australia and what not.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-05 at 12:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Thedoc23 View Post
    Nobody should get the same, some people just don't deserve it pure and simple and some jobs don't really warrent high pay. I would be however in favour regrading what certain jobs should earn. CEO's should still earn high above average, but not the ridiculous amounts that they shouldn't need to spend. But careers in the emergency services should definitly earn more (nurses, firemen, police) and jobs that keep everything rolling (the power industry, production and transport of goods).
    Well said, some deserve more than others, those who spends year preparing, training and earning a position should be rewarded. and those who do the bare minimum should get the bare minimum (and still be able to live on it) but no one is worth hundreds of times more than another person.
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  14. #774
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    Funny how Scandinavia is always left out
    Because socialism is not communism and even then Scandinavia is not entirely socialist

    There is a difference between being to the left of a road and the middle :P

    Or maybe

    Think of a socio liberalist utopia. Then add a good dose of laws to infringe on personal freedoms. Stir the pot and cook for half a century. Serve your 'scandinavian political third way' well done

  15. #775
    OP:

    So every rich guy is a hard working, smart fellow that has innovative ideas that helps mankind, whereas every poor guy is a slacker just waiting for welfare?

    Maybe it's the other way around?

    Every rich guy has inherited wealth and influence from a corrupt, evil family, whereas every poor guy is a good, humble worker being oppressed by the fascist capitalists.

    Both of these statements are just stupid. There is a middle way, and that's how the government should work also. In any developed country, a person with talent can get rich and live a life of luxury, and a person in a more unfortunate position, will be caught by the safety net which is paid for by all of us with jobs. People who $50 000 a year will have problems with a 50% tax, whereas a person with $50 million won't even notice the difference in his lifestyle with 50% tax, so it's fair that wealthy people contribute more.

  16. #776
    Quote Originally Posted by Rekindled View Post
    I will point out that your opportunity cost argument does not hold up as the job was filled within a week at almost `/12 the cost.
    If the discriminating employer hired people who were less skilled over your more skilled grandfather, only because of factors that didn't affect the job performance (skin color, nationality, etc), then the employer most certainly lost potential money. He ended up with a worse employee because of his discirmination.
    Last edited by Diurdi; 2012-05-05 at 01:16 PM.

  17. #777
    The Insane Cattaclysmic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xarkan View Post
    Because socialism is not communism and even then Scandinavia is not entirely socialist

    There is a difference between being to the left of a road and the middle :P

    Or maybe

    Think of a socio liberalist utopia. Then add a good dose of laws to infringe on personal freedoms. Stir the pot and cook for half a century. Serve your 'scandinavian political third way' well done
    Soviet Union, China and Cuba were just as communist as Scandinavia - aka not very much

  18. #778
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    I voted yes because I don't think Anarchy would be a good idea.

    I read the first 10 pages of the thread and I love how most people assume that redistribution = everyone has the exact same disposable income.
    Redistribution of income is not only transfer payments but also all kinds of goods, meaning police, military, politicians, education, health programs, roads, public beaches and forests etc.

  19. #779
    Everyone thinks Capitalism is great until you're on the other side of the wealth spectrum suddenly.

  20. #780
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    I think we should put a proportional burden upon the super wealthy. If they are not going to be altruistic and take their own steps in giving back then we need to make them. They can still be super wealthy and do everything they want. They just may have to avoid the solid gold toilet and send that money to fund a public library.

    The role models are out there. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, and many other billionaires have accepted the added responsibility that comes with controlling so much wealth.

    I really can't, and never will, understand the ones that do not feel any extra duty to the people who make their wealth possible. Then again, they have that desire for wealth and power that I do not. I have no desire for power or material possessions. I do not expect them to change their mindset, just understand that they are and will be judged by the decisions they make. When they could fund worldwide literacy projects and instead choose to build more palatial homes that they will never even use, they should be scorned by the public.

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