Alchemy is dumb!

[XeroXen TruSin]

Round 2. posted on official forums: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4847054673#1

I apologise, i love alchemy, but i DISLIKE elixirs.
Allow me to elaborate.
We have Flasks that count as battle and guardian elixirs that persist through death.
We have Battle Elixirs, that provide offensive or "main" buffs depending on which one we use.
We have Guardian Elixirs (this is where we get fuzzy) that provide defensive-... wait, nevermind, they only provide ARMOR and DODGE.

My reasoning for putting this thread in the beta forums are that i just saw the (datamined) alchemy changes and we follow the same trend. While im not one to argue or complain about UNOFFICIAL information in BETA phase i was sad to see that once again we essentially have no Guardian elixirs. I understand that they are the way they are to balance the additional benifit you can receive and all that but really....

It should be (suppose to be) a replacement for a flask, without the convenience of persisting through death. (if u die, u gotta pay more to rebuff) the choice of a B+G elixir combo SHULD be greater in potency to a flask, and offer a PRODIGOUS personalization level as you can select the attributes your getting, rather than the "main" stat.
So why is there no option? Why do we still have the battle and guardian elixir diff if it will never be viable for ANYONE save for MAYBE a tank to select the combo over a straight flask?

MoP were re-doing a lot of the game and how we play and i love it all. Im excited for the changes, i love the new content, and it all looks gorgeous. BUT, if there is ONE THING EXTRA id like to ask of my well spent money its that someone take a lil time (im sure it takes a lot actually) to change this in alchemy. Start a poll as blizz loves, check the data. The use of elixirs pales in comparison to even ONE type of flask. Noone uses this aspect of this profession, and THAT is an issue worth adressing.


please post a comment on the offi forums to draw some attention and post HERE in this thread to let me know how the community feels about this. thanks guys

[Blueobelisk]

Your poll choices make me not take the question seriously.

It's just an option to use a guardian/battle elixir over a flask and while no DPS really need to choose its possible for tanks or maybe healers to mix and match depending on fights.

They don't need a bigger effect than a flask just because you spend more ingredients. It's fine The way it is.

[Deleted]

Flasks have always been superior to elixers, and as a dps, i cannot say i've ever chosen elixers over a solid int flask.

The elixers would have to be upwards of 500 rating to overtake the 380 int i get from a flask, and it's only 90 sadly >.<

[Hoticehunter]

Flasks have always been superior to elixers, and as a dps, i cannot say i've ever chosen elixers over a solid int flask.

The elixers would have to be upwards of 500 rating to overtake the 380 int i get from a flask, and it's only 90 sadly >.<

Back in BC healers didn't get a flask. There were just spell damage ones. So it was always double elixir back then for me.
I'd love if they made double elixir competitive with flasks, but between cauldrons and flasks lasting through death, you'd be hard pressed to get raiders to use double elixir even if elixirs provided more stats. As it is, elixirs are just kinda... pointless relics from a bygone era.

Your poll choices make me not take the question seriously.

Agreed.

[Eis]

Back in BC healers didn't get a flask. There were just spell damage ones. So it was always double elixir back then for me.
I'd love if they made double elixir competitive with flasks, but between cauldrons and flasks lasting through death, you'd be hard pressed to get raiders to use double elixir even if elixirs provided more stats. As it is, elixirs are just kinda... pointless relics from a bygone era.

Distilled Wisdom! <.< Was a pain in the ass, but whatever. And yeah, that was the last time I used any elixir.

[XeroXen TruSin]

you guys misunderstand, its the option of 2 stats as B+G that allow for NON main attribute buffs. never an option of "well int flask is more int than an int elixir"
and, there isnt an option as there are no guardian elixirs viable for anyone but tanks. we dont have mageblood, ect anymore. just armor and dodge. and i wasnt intending on making it seems like a comical argument, the point is if the elixir combo is NOT superior, why then does it exist. why not just make slightly more potent elixirs (like mini flasks) instead of the battle or guardian elixir, thats specifically designed as a counter alternative to the flask (which is why a flask counts as both)

the upside to a flask should be that its the main stat, and that it persists through death. thus for a raiding enviroment its superior when you might die often. Otherwise a 2 elixir combination should be superior in personalized stats and slightly more costly as if you die you must re-apply. if noone is utilizing the capable combination of a battle + guardian elixir, why is the "you can only have one battle and one guardian elixir at a time" parameter still in effect. We could simply make flasks (you may only have one 'elixir' effect at a time) and elixir (75% flask potency, you may only have one 'elixir' effect at a time, does NOT persist through death) the diff being that the elixirs, while less potent than a flask, would be cheaper (standalone) and offer a wider range of buffs for say doing instances or what-have-you.

[Oscassey]

There also exist battle elixirs that give main stat boots. These are unfortunately made of paper by scribes and are called scrolls. (Except the scroll of stamina that takes the spot of a guardian elixir.)

[Dyscordia]

When I dps on my Deathknight I use Flask of Titanic Strength, when I tank, I use Elixir of the master and Elixir of Deep Earth. Not sure why I prefer the two elixirs, but it seems the better option as a tank death knight.

[XeroXen TruSin]

When I dps on my Deathknight I use Flask of Titanic Strength, when I tank, I use Elixir of the master and Elixir of Deep Earth. Not sure why I prefer the two elixirs, but it seems the better option as a tank death knight.

because its a more potent combination. 225 of 2 stats is superior in EVERY SINGLE WAY to 300 of ONE stat. BUT the issue is you (as a atank) are the only person capable of this choice, as there are no 'guardian' elixirs for enyone else to choose from unless Johnny-the-mage wants 225 mastery and 1,800 armor instead of 300 int... you see what i mean?

---------- Post added 2012-05-04 at 04:56 PM ----------

Your poll choices make me not take the question seriously.

It's just an option to use a guardian/battle elixir over a flask and while no DPS really need to choose its possible for tanks or maybe healers to mix and match depending on fights.

They don't need a bigger effect than a flask just because you spend more ingredients. It's fine The way it is.

so the entire 'elixir' portion of the alchemy profession is to sometimes give tanks and "maybe healers" an option sometimes? thats as effective as engineers income dependant on selling hunter only scopes. its a sizeable portion of a profession, it shouldnt apply to such a select group

Back in BC healers didn't get a flask. There were just spell damage ones. So it was always double elixir back then for me.
I'd love if they made double elixir competitive with flasks, but between cauldrons and flasks lasting through death, you'd be hard pressed to get raiders to use double elixir even if elixirs provided more stats. As it is, elixirs are just kinda... pointless relics from a bygone era.

Agreed.

exactly, thats why it should be delt with in the way all old relics of the past are in wow. Remove it completely, or change it so it becomes relevant once again. u dont just leave non-functioning content in the game

[Raugnaut]

Future suggestion for titles- Instead of "Alchemy is dumb!", a title that will make your point come across as intelligent and enlightened would be something more like "Elixers: Should they be made competitive with flasks?"

The main problem is the fact that nearly all the stats a DPS would like are tied into the Battle elixers, while none of them are in a Guardian Elixer. A secondary problem is more that Primary stats are generally worth twice the amount as most secondary stats. But yea, having Elixers as a viable alternative, at least for all tanks and healers, wouldbegood.

[XeroXen TruSin]

my title was selected on purpose to display my childlike nature, which is not supported by my thought-through post filled with relevant thoughts pertaining to a real issue. People are too nit-picky about what they like and pass it off as whats right.

but to make this a relevant post i agree, that would be mroe to the point, but the underlying point was that its silly that elixirs are not only not competitive, but altogether useless when looking at a wide view of the profession as a whole.

[iPluto]

Alchemy is really easy to level though unlike blacksmithing and engineering, jc....pfffff. I like engineering best it has lots of fun perks i wish my main had the northrend portal, jeeves, boots etc. Oh well can't have everything.

[Books]

Yeah i loved alchemy back in the day, but it seems blizzard is starting to slip on it. yeah we get special procs but anymore the procs arnt even worth it, half the time you dont get any extra and when you do its a lousy 2. The flask of enhancement is kinda cool but it doesnt even stand next to any of the profession only buffs. Further more, you get the ability to turn yourself into others, ONE mount which costs and arm a leg and a fragment of your soul to make and can be sold on the ah, and a few other little diddys here and there. Even the short term effect potions give you still doesnt help as much as say spring loaded boots for example.

Really if they dont start giving it some love ima go to J/c or something. Oh and btw, remember when alchemy patters used to drop? damn i miss that shit! now its like oh a recipe must be leather working, BS, J/c or engineering.. * clicks pass *

[tiporispit]

Alchemy is really easy to level though unlike blacksmithing and engineering, jc....pfffff. I like engineering best it has lots of fun perks i wish my main had the northrend portal, jeeves, boots etc. Oh well can't have everything.

Every profession in the game is easy to level, unless your toon is the equivalent of a poor Food Stamper.

As for the topic, OP makes a valid point. I used to run Mageblood? and Draenic? in BC for farm content, and Wisdom on progression nights. Some of the potions have neat vanity/cosmetic effects. How about moving them to guardian elixirs and making them persist until death?

[Madscientist]

Yeah, I dislike that alchemy is nerfed to the ground. It's depressing to think that vanilla flask had relatively 10 times more power.

[Delaios]

because its a more potent combination. 225 of 2 stats is superior in EVERY SINGLE WAY to 300 of ONE stat. BUT the issue is you (as a atank) are the only person capable of this choice, as there are no 'guardian' elixirs for enyone else to choose from unless Johnny-the-mage wants 225 mastery and 1,800 armor instead of 300 int... you see what i mean?

Are there DPS specs that would value a 450 secondary stat bonus over a 300 primary stat bonus? I can't think of any spec were this would always be true. One exception I can think of is if a melee DPS needs 225 hit and expertise rating to cap for raids. Even then, reforging lesser stats into hit/exp and taking a 300 str/agi flask would a better option DPS-wise.

[Duridi]

Flasks have always been superior to elixers

Wrong. There was no way I would use a flask as a healer during TBC. The "healer flask" provided 25mp5, while the battle elixir offered +healing and the guardian elixir offerened stamina+spirit. Back then the hp pool was important on certain fights, and spirit increased both my healing and the power of my innervate. Mp5 was also a stat hated by most healers. I think it had to do with it costing way more itempoints than you the regen gained was worth, but don't remember entirely.

It's also important to remember that +healing and + spell damage was two seperate stats, later combined into spellpower. This meant the casters had a quite decent flask offering them a nice chunk of spell damage, but utterly useless for healers.

---------- Post added 2012-05-06 at 06:23 PM ----------

exactly, thats why it should be delt with in the way all old relics of the past are in wow. Remove it completely, or change it so it becomes relevant once again. u dont just leave non-functioning content in the game

Are you suggesting removing alchemy, or just removing elixirs?

Alchemy is my number one favourite profession, and I love every single bit of it so I'd hate to see any of it go.

[kerfanna]

As a paladin tank I use Elixir of the Master and Prismatic Elixir all the time. That way I can gem for stamina and still keep CtC Capped and the resistances are nice on fights like Zon'ozz (Psychic Drain). It would be nice if there were a dodge elixir now to replace the resistances elixir on fights it's not really needed on. Though since Indomitable Pride FINALLY dropped (the first time my guild has saw it since DS launch =/) in this weeks raid I have to regem anyway, so I might not be using them anymore.

[Nyaldee]

OP is right, there's no benefit in using elixirs over flask. So all alchemy is narrowed to are flasks/potions/transmutes. It's still a variety of goods to sell, but leaving elixirs as leveling material and nothing else doesn't make sence. Imo double elixir should provide some benefit over flask, given larger comparative cost on a wipe night.

[Duridi]

OP is right, there's no benefit in using elixirs over flask. So all alchemy is narrowed to are flasks/potions/transmutes. It's still a variety of goods to sell, but leaving elixirs as leveling material and nothing else doesn't make sence. Imo double elixir should provide some benefit over flask, given larger comparative cost on a wipe night.

If I remember correctly, our paladin tank did the same as Kerfanna above you, so you better have knowledge of all classes and speccs before you make that statement. Not saying I know them all either, but I certainly recall our paladin saying the cauldron was irrelevant to him for that very reason.