Pandaria and Solo'ing: DK, or a viable alternative?

[Nodata]

Hello boys and girls,

I've debated for a while where to post this, and while I'm aware this is not exactly a DK-class thread, I figured most of the people potentially interested by this discussion would be found here, in this section. (my apologies to mods if this is too much of a rule-bending)

TL;DR: can anybody help calculating if there is another class that has the self-sustain necessary to be a serious solo'er in MoP beside DKs?

Here is what I need your help on. I'm desperately twisting all the info on MoP in order to choose what class to play. The reason this is linked to the DK forum is that most of what I do in my spare time is try to solo content. Not all of it though. I also pvp and tank in a decent HM guild.

Anyway, because I suck at maths, I need your help to try and identify if druids, pals or monks do stand a chance in terms of solo'ing capability in MoP, when compared to Death Knights. I understand a lot of you will give me a ver emotional "yes or no" answer, but I'm hoping that some of you might genuinely be interested in the question, and are more skilled than I am at making retro-ingeneering maths to figure out if the new druid self-healing talents or the previewed monks mechanics may be competitive in that respect.

After all, if DKs emerge slightly above the crowd, I don't really care. I wouldn't mind trying a monk for a while. But if they are not going to be competitive at all (same with druids), then I would love to be sure, and start focusing on my DK as my main for that expansion without looking back.

Does that make any sense? Can you help me out?

Much obliged,

Nodz

[Lysah]

Why only look at tank classes? Hunters have been competitive with DKs forever as far as solo ability, and can even do things DKs cannot. Blood does have a certain...aptitude for handling solo content, but most classes are getting a ton of ways to reliably heal themselves.

[Asheriah]

Why only look at tank classes? Hunters have been competitive with DKs forever as far as solo ability, and can even do things DKs cannot. Blood does have a certain...aptitude for handling solo content, but most classes are getting a ton of ways to reliably heal themselves.

Well, if you're looking for soloing high end content, like Cataclysm or heroic ICC, you'll have to play a tank. Now, for soloing old content, like BC or early Wotlk, you don't need a specific class, anything can do fine. There are several fights where you'll have to play a pet class, like Algalon, but at the time of MoP, you'll be able to kill him SO fast, you won't need anything but yourself, and dps gear.

Monks are REALLY good at the moment. I did Kael'Thas on mine, and even some ICC 10 bosses. (Keep in mind that my monk is ilvl 378, no gems, no enchant, no reforge) The reason behind this, is because as a brewmaster, you have very good damage, you can AoE quite effectively and guard is the next best thing compared to blood shield, if not even better in certain situations because it absorbs magic damage aswell. You can heal yourself too, and the defensive cooldowns are amazing.

Paladins are getting a nice healing buff too, they'll do really fine. Not sure about druids, since they kind of destroyed the whole idea of form switching with the four specs (now I might exaggerate a bit here lol) and I have no clue about warriors.

[Lysah]

Well, if you're looking for soloing high end content, like Cataclysm or heroic ICC, you'll have to play a tank. Now, for soloing old content, like BC or early Wotlk, you don't need a specific class, anything can do fine. There are several fights where you'll have to play a pet class, like Algalon, but at the time of MoP, you'll be able to kill him SO fast, you won't need anything but yourself, and dps gear.

I don't think that's as much an issue as tank pets being inferior, more class mechanics in general. There is no doubt that DKs at this point in time are very special...I admit I haven't kept up with meta game PvE much this expansion, but when I hear about blood DKs tanking most or all of heroic DS in DPS gear, I think there's something wrong =p

[Asheriah]

I don't think that's as much an issue as tank pets being inferior, more class mechanics in general. There is no doubt that DKs at this point in time are very special...I admit I haven't kept up with meta game PvE much this expansion, but when I hear about blood DKs tanking most or all of heroic DS in DPS gear, I think there's something wrong =p

Exactly ! Algalon is all about mechanics. If you can do it with a hunter, it's because you have several pets, and that's the only reason you can't do it as a DK. I'm sure hunter pets can tank most of the stuff, but there are some fights where you just can't take all the damage, and hunters don't have enough self healing for these. That's why DK"s are so good at soloing, they can dps while healing themselves. (A lot)

[Tehterokkar]

Atramedes in BWD is a good example of something Hunters can do and DKs can't. Hunters can drop the Lazer tracking with Feign death easily and can avoid all damage pretty much. And the boss hits like a wimp so pet can tank it no problem.

[Mionelol]

It's a tuning issue more than anything else, and tbh no-one knows just yet.

I don't think Monks have that much potential since the cooldown of 30 seconds on Guard, but it also depends on how much Expel Harm and other healing abilities might heal for. That being said the class is till heavy in development and back when Guard had no cooldown it was a class with very, very good soloing potential, I soloed Patchwerk on my first minutes of trying a Monk.

Hunters are currently the class with the most insane self-healing I've ever seen, in beta right now. But it's so insane it seems fairly obvious it won't make it live - it's just too god damn powerful. Regardless, it depends how much it'll be toned down.

DKs have the same potential as usual and nothing much has changed. As far as our survivability goes we gained SoB which increases base DS healing, but lost some Death Strikes through the loss of Blood Tap, so it more or less evens out. Our problem will remain DPS more than survivability in the huge majority of cases and if anything our tank DPS isn't going up. I'm still thinking DKs will be the best, and to be totally honest, being a "tanky" class based on a self-healing and self-sustain theme is our class identity, at least as far as Blood goes. Those two components are exactly what are required for old content soloing, and if some class somehow manages to beat us at those two components, I'd say our class identity is kind of suffering.

Paladins gain no-cooldown WoG and will have a lot more survivability than they currenly have but it still won't beat Death Strike/Bood Shield imo. (and it shouldn't, for PvE purposes). Even if it does, I fail to see how they'll beat enrage timers - paladins, as always, simply cannot deal damage and heal themselves at the same time, unless something has changed lately which I'm not aware of.

Warriors have always had their very particular niche of Victory Rush and outside of that they're not a good soloing class, at least as far as soloing old raids is concerned.

Warlocks will end up a lot, lot better than before. They have tons of self-healing, a ton more mitigation, ability to ping-pong with two 40-yard taunts as demo, malefic grasp, and many other new defensive/healing abilities. I see them with a lot more potential than atm. That being said, they're also clearly over the top right now, like Hunters, and will get toned down - question is how much.

I have no idea about Ferals because I don't play them and I've heard a lot of them saying the situation is a lot better for them. Will have to ask Braindwen or one of the other ferals that post on this DK part of the forum.


Personally, I'm staying on my DK. Because DKs <3 !

[Rexxr]

Any tanks even monks are going be able to solo anything from previous x-pac. BM hunters and Demon lock same thing NP. A deck out guy with full gear from lets 5.2 will be able to burn must anything away with a few exceptions. Best advise get a friend or 2 and just roll stuff. Right now I go with a ret pally and shadow priest (I am a BM Hunter and the bear tanks). Priest goes heals if we need and the pally goes prot if we need. Everyone gets mad loot.

[Raugnaut]

It's a tuning issue more than anything else, and tbh no-one knows just yet.

DKs have the same potential as usual and nothing much has changed. As far as our survivability goes we gained SoB which increases DS healing, but lost a lot of Death Strikes through the loss of Blood Tap. Our problem will remain DPS more than survivability in the huge majority of cases and if anything our tank DPS isn't going up. I'm still thinking DKs will be the best, and to be totally honest, being a "tanky" class based on self-healing and survivability is our class identity, at least as far as Blood goes. Those two components are exactly what are required for old content soloing, and if some class somehow manages to beat us at those two components, I'd say our class identity is kind of suffering.

Paladins gain no-cooldown WoG and might be able to have a lot more survivability than before but it still won't beat Death Strike/Bood Shield imo. (and it shouldn't, for PvE purposes). Even if it does, I fail to see how they'll beat enrage timers - paladins, as always, simply cannot deal damage and heal themselves at the same time, unless something has changed lately which I'm not aware of.

Warriors have always had their very particular niche of Victory Rush and outside of that they're not a good soloing class, at least as far as soloing old raids is concerned.

Warlocks will end up a lot, lot better than before. They have tons of self-healing, a ton more mitigation, ability to ping-pong with two 40-yard taunts as demo, malefic grasp, and many other new defensive/healing abilities. I see them with a lot more potential than atm. That being said, they're also clearly over the top right now, like Hunters, and will get toned down - question is how much.

I have no idea about Ferals because I don't play them and I've heard a lot of them saying the situation is a lot better for them. Will have to ask Braindwen or one of the other ferals that post on this DK part of the forum.

With tanking classes, we still have vengeance (although it seems to have been nerfed from its current form, back to 5% instead of 33%.) If thats just a typo, and vengeance will remain at the 33% ap gain it is now, we should have NO problem beating enrage timers.

Druids have a spammable heal that heals .33333% (repeating) of your health per rage point. We also have what seems to be an additional 20% self heal available every 2 minutes, in addition to either the ability to have rejuvenation up for 45 seconds out of 360 seconds, or a 15% self heal every minute.

Warriors are also gaining a buff- we now get an absorb costing 60 rage that absorbs for an amount equal to attack power, and either 30% health regen every 1 min, or a constant 1% heal every second, depending on how you want to go.

Warlocks, as you stated, with Dark Apothesis, are in a significantly better place then live in terms of soloing- we get the damage reduction and damage done of a tank.

Other classes are also getting buffs- Priests have a number more self healing, even as shadow (who can cast some healing spells in shadowform now.) Mages are getting either 20% channeled health heal every 10 seconds, or around 2% hps that needs to be channeled, or a constant 1% hps by standing still, or a bubble that absorbs around 30% of health, and restores mana. They also get Alter Time, a long CD that undos all damage taken in a 4 second period, Temporal Shield, which absorbs damage for 4 seconds then heals what was taken over 6 seconds, or Ice Barrier, which is a heavy-damage shield. Finally, Mages can acquire Cauterize, which is the 40% heal, but deals 35% health in damage (With a quick Ice Block, is just a 40% heal)

Hunters, as stated, are currently powerful in self-healing: Disengage has a 15% heal, Spirit Bond heals for 3% every 2 for both self and pet, Glyph of Mend Pet, Mend Pet heals for 40% of the pets health, you can glyph for 10% more healing done to self and pet, and debuff removal (all 3 requires all 3 glyph slots), Blood of the Rhino is baseline to all pets, and increases the healing recieved by the pet by 40%, increases armor by 20%, and makes the pet uncrittable. Thus, Mend Pet heals for close to 60% of base HP, hunter pets are tougher, and hunters have a ton of self healing. To ice this cake, Hunters can take ANY pet in the game and turn them into a tanking pet (Tanking kittehs!) as blizz has stated thier intention is for hunters to be able to choose thier pets spec, and then choose a few abilities based on the spec (I.E you can take a kitty, make it ferocity, and then choose between crit buff, phys damage debuff, sunder, ect, or make it tenacity, and then choose between 50% shield, 10% less damage done by enemies, ect). In addition, it seems that Growl has been rolled into a 3x pet threat boost- they wont overtake good tanks, but they should be able to tank for any hunter just fine. MM hunters can glyph for Chimera shot to heal for either 10% of health, or 15% of health.

Rogues are in a pretty good place as well: With leeching poison, they heal for 10% of damage done, Shiv self heals for 10% of health, and if they choose to pass up self healing, they can use 30% damage reduction via fient, which, when glyphed, lasts for 7 seconds (It is currently no CD, but 20 energy)

---------- Post added 2012-05-04 at 03:29 PM ----------

Btw, Mione, it seems, to me at least, Blood DKs are getting nerfed, as the +45% extra healing from imp. DS isnt being rolled into DS, so techincally, we are down in terms of DS healing/absorb. Could easily be an oversight, and will be readily corrected.

Also, this IS beta, and much of this self healing could easily disappear- Im thinking it wont, simply due to the large amount of self healing across the board.

[Totle]

Bears and Prot Pallys can supposedly hold their own.

[Asheriah]

Atramedes in BWD is a good example of something Hunters can do and DKs can't. Hunters can drop the Lazer tracking with Feign death easily and can avoid all damage pretty much. And the boss hits like a wimp so pet can tank it no problem.

Atramedes was already soloed by a DK, though. :s

[Nodata]

Thanks a lot for the great answers. I haven't considered locks and hunters because I need to be able to tank for my guild as well, but they surely are interesting options to consider.

Mione: according to what you say Monks could be there in terms of dps, but they have a sustain problem because of the CD on Guard. Not being able to play the beta, I therefore deduce that this is the key variable I should keep an eye out for in the current patches?

If I try to rank tank classes from accruing opinions here, does it look something like that?
1- DK: still probably better than all others, if maybe by a smaller margin
2- Monks: still heavy in development, but my be serious contenders depending on how a few variables evolve during beta.
3- Druids: may lack sustain, tbc.
4- Paladins: lose too many globals to heal themselves?
5- Warriors: lack sustain outside of VR.

[Calamari]

Why only look at tank classes? Hunters have been competitive with DKs forever as far as solo ability, and can even do things DKs cannot. Blood does have a certain...aptitude for handling solo content, but most classes are getting a ton of ways to reliably heal themselves.

Good point, Hunters might not have quite the raw survivability of a blood DK, but can solo fights that a DK could not due to Enrage timers (though currently on beta Hunters have incredible self healing.. but their pets suffer from being quite frail because pet talent trees are gone).

An example would be the recent world first of a hunter killing Algalon 10 solo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoVtBiyagXM), they can do some quite amazing things in skilled hands.

Edit: I hear prot paladin solo potential on beta has gone up quite alot now that they've removed their cooldown on Word of Glory in a recent beta patch.

[Lysah]

Hunters can also do some tricks just out of being ranged...Atramedes comes to mind. As said, hunters being two units can flat out ignore and avoid some boss mechanics that make it impossible for all other classes. I haven't tested the beta (at all) but from what I hear (like mione said in thread) hunters are in a great spot, and I would consider them strongly, as they're already about on par with DKs as is.

DKs have the upper hand right now because the combination of tanking, DPSing, and healing is just absurd. If this is liable to change in MoP, then sure, look at blood/protpal, but I wouldn't dismiss hunter, in fact, I would heavily consider studying it. It usually takes a lot more finesse, but it's a very strong solo class.

[Asheriah]

An example would be the recent world first of a hunter killing Algalon 10 solo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoVtBiyagXM), they can do some quite amazing things in skilled hands.

Algalon doesn't come with any enrage problem. (Nor does any other old boss, except maybe Yogg 0) The only reason you can kill him as a hunter, is because you can dismiss and change your pet for the phase punch stacking.

Hunters can also do some tricks just out of being ranged [...] It usually takes a lot more finesse, but it's a very strong solo class.

On par might be a little bit much to say. They're good, and will probably be even better in MoP, but there are tons of things you can't do as a hunter, especially high end content. (ICC heroic stuff, for example. And not marrowgar.) There are bosses with special mechanics that temporarily dismiss your pet (I'm thinking of malygos, he's doable, yep, but he's easy, and it's only a first tier raid), or mind controlling bosses that you can't normally do with a hunter without LoS exploiting. (Which is clearly not finesse to me ) Not to speak about all the heavy aoe, cleaving or hard hitting bosses you'll find in the crème de la crème of soloing.

Now, I like soloing on my hunter, mind you, but it's certainly not as comfortable as a tank class, and if you're really aiming for a strong, clean and safe way to go far, then you should use one of these.

[Nodata]

I have decided to study monk. But it's not a rushed endeavor since the class pretty much changes every week. (@Lysah: I need a tank class because my main needs to tank for my guild, but your argument for hunters surely sounds interesting)

Based on the tooltips I read everywhere it looks like health spheres are summoned on a .5 sec global. Is that true? Does that make them a powerful self healing tool as well?

DPS wise: it looks (again, from a theoretical point of view) like it could be possible to maintain 100% zen sphere uptime, which seems a good idea since it also does damage. Is that in the basic rotation for a tank anyway?

[Mionelol]

I haven't looked at the latest patches on my Monk by myself, but I've read a lot about Zen Sphere being currently overtuned, and yeah, very good uptime if not 100%. Health spheres, unless something changed, still cost 60 energy to cast, and are not being really useable a lot.

[Nodata]

Overlooked the 60e. Thanks for the clarification, m'dame!

[Harmloos]

I personally think that at release death knights will still have their healing niche and their cooldowns arsenal. Especially the selfhealing becomes superior over avoidance quickly when content is outdated. This is why death knights have been top soloers in the past and as long as this niche does not change it is why they will remain top soloers.