The problem with Shaman talents

[Deleted]

Its purpose is to give you a root for 5 seconds and/or a snare for 20 seconds. Once it gets sniped, the effect ends instantly and your CC is gone for 30 seconds.

I have to give the edge to Frozen Power in tier 2. Not only does it do damage, but the cooldown is six seconds, and enemies can't snipe a totem and end the root before its duration ends. FP has its flaws since it runs into your other shocks, but its way better than EG for CC.

As for the Totem survivability issue, I think we can solve it just by giving critical totems like SBT and EG 10% of the Shaman's health.

The benefit of Earthgrab is its 1 - AoE, 2 - not only Roots people in it but people who run into it after its placed and 3 - It needs to be killed. The act of actually switching onto the totem and killing it is part of its power. You can grab a dispel and just keep on going with Frost Shock/FP but EG will slow you again, and root any of your friends. You also have the option to drop it, rooting the melee character chasing you, then throw the totem at another enemy, rooting them, or to the other side of a pillar you are running towards. It has its benefits.

If you feel those benefits are outweighed by the advantage Frozen Power has of not being destroyed, being a ranged ability (without the need of another talent - though I tend to think for Enhance and Ele at least Totemic Projection seems to offer the most in Arena thanks to Capacitor Totem - my own opinion) and having a shorter cooldown then thats fine. If you feel you're team has plenty of CC but you say have a Warrior in your team (a class renowned for its constant need to be babysat by your healer with dispels) then Windwalk Totem might be your talent of choice. That is absolutely fine. Its not fine to say however that Frozen Power is way better than Earthgrab just because you think so. I will probably take Frozen Power in Mists because I think it procs Shatter which my Frost Mage will love, but that is a unique situation where Frozen Power has added benefits, and that is perfectly fine.

[Teriz]

The benefit of Earthgrab is its 1 - AoE, 2 - not only Roots people in it but people who run into it after its placed and 3 - It needs to be killed. The act of actually switching onto the totem and killing it is part of its power. You can grab a dispel and just keep on going with Frost Shock/FP but EG will slow you again, and root any of your friends. You also have the option to drop it, rooting the melee character chasing you, then throw the totem at another enemy, rooting them, or to the other side of a pillar you are running towards. It has its benefits.

If you feel those benefits are outweighed by the advantage Frozen Power has of not being destroyed, being a ranged ability (without the need of another talent - though I tend to think for Enhance and Ele at least Totemic Projection seems to offer the most in Arena thanks to Capacitor Totem - my own opinion) and having a shorter cooldown then thats fine. If you feel you're team has plenty of CC but you say have a Warrior in your team (a class renowned for its constant need to be babysat by your healer with dispels) then Windwalk Totem might be your talent of choice. That is absolutely fine. Its not fine to say however that Frozen Power is way better than Earthgrab just because you think so. I will probably take Frozen Power in Mists because I think it procs Shatter which my Frost Mage will love, but that is a unique situation where Frozen Power has added benefits, and that is perfectly fine.

Well Frozen Power also does damage, has a slow that follows the root, cannot be sniped and destroyed, has a much shorter CD (though other shocks hurt that benefit a bit), has more range for kiting (40 yds for Elemental), doesn't slam into other Earth totems such as SBT, and as you stated it works with certian comps that do frost damage (Mages, DKs, etc).

Also I feel that I'm going to need totemic restoration for PvP way more than Projection.

[Deleted]

Well Frozen Power also does damage, has a slow that follows the root, cannot be sniped and destroyed, has a much shorter CD (though other shocks hurt that benefit a bit), has more range for kiting (40 yds for Elemental), doesn't slam into other Earth totems such as SBT, and as you stated it works with certian comps that do frost damage (Mages, DKs, etc).

Also I feel that I'm going to need totemic restoration for PvP way more than Projection.

1 - Earthgrab has a slow that follows the root too

2 - It can be dispelled though

3 - It does have a shorter cooldown yes, but Earthgrab is also AoE - if they had the same cooldown then EG would be vastly stronger, and thus thats a trade-off you choose

4 - It is ranged without need to be further talented thats true, but again thats part of the trade-off

5 - It doesn't prevent other totems being used but it does prevent other shocks

6 - It does have synergy with certain comps - though thats as far as I know purely Mages... and to a lesser extent Warriors (Frozen Power means only normal Earthbind - Warriors have Staggering Shout which would Root anyone slowed by Earthbind providing the Earthgrab ability essentially at the loss of other talent choices for the Warrior)

7 - You're choice of Totem Talent is also your choice. My point, nor Endus's, was never that your wrong in prefering any talent or another. Thats fine. We simply take issue with you implying that because you prefer a certain set up it means that is the only choice that is viable and thus the talent system is wrong. Its circular reasoning that we take issue with - "I dont like X so I have to pick Y.... I dont like the talents because I have to pick Y so I cant have X"

[Teriz]

1 - Earthgrab has a slow that follows the root too

Agreed, and I wouldn't have such an issue with EG if the CD wasn't so punishing.

2 - It can be dispelled though

I prefer someone using a dispel to end my root than white damage ending the root.

3 - It does have a shorter cooldown yes, but Earthgrab is also AoE - if they had the same cooldown then EG would be vastly stronger, and thus thats a trade-off you choose

Well on live Earth's Grasp and Earthbind have a 15 second cooldown. It was doubled for whatever reason in MoP, and that makes it a bit harder to justify since its so easy to eliminate.

4 - It is ranged without need to be further talented thats true, but again thats part of the trade-off

It also does damage, that's a fact that can't be overlooked.

5 - It doesn't prevent other totems being used but it does prevent other shocks

I've acknowledged that before. It really causes problems for Elemental due to Shock "juggling", and I really hope Blizzard fixes the problem for Elemental Shaman at least.

You're choice of Totem Talent is also your choice. My point, nor Endus's, was never that your wrong in prefering any talent or another. Thats fine. We simply take issue with you implying that because you prefer a certain set up it means that is the only choice that is viable and thus the talent system is wrong. Its circular reasoning that we take issue with - "I dont like X so I have to pick Y.... I dont like the talents because I have to pick Y so I cant have X"

Yeah, looking over what I posted in the quote you responded to, I should have said "IMO". That was my fault, and I apologize for any confusion that may have caused.

I will say that in terms of talent CCs, our CC talents seem to have some pretty steep drawbacks in comparison to other hybrid classes.

BTW, according to wowhead, Earthgrab has 100 health as opposed to 5. Blizzard needs to just give all totems 10% of Shaman health and be done with this craziness.

[Aviators]

Well on live Earth's Grasp and Earthbind have a 15 second cooldown. It was doubled for whatever reason in MoP, and that makes it a bit harder to justify since its so easy to eliminate.

As long as Earthgrab roots instantly, its going to be justified. 30 seconds is not that bad. Druid's nature's grasp is a 1 minute on live. Also consider the fact that when you do root the target(s) with Earthgrab, you wont have to worry about the root diminishing returns.

[Teriz]

As long as Earthgrab roots instantly, its going to be justified. 30 seconds is not that bad. Druid's nature's grasp is a 1 minute on live. Also consider the fact that when you do root the target(s) with Earthgrab, you wont have to worry about the root diminishing returns.

Yeah, except Nature's Grasp isn't a talent, its root lasts up to 30 seconds, lasts 45 seconds, and it can't be cancelled by a swing of a weapon. To make matters worse, Nature's Grasp isn't even the primary Druid root. NG is just there in case melee gets in your face. Druids have 2 tiers of CC in their talents.

[Sparkalark]

I'll forward my opinion with the the fact we have zero knowledge what MOP endgame will look like. Already I can tell you if there's another UltraxionH type fight, tier 1 Astral Shift will be 100% required *for my play style*; everything in tier 2, 3 and 4 seems garbage.

I won't debate the useful or irrelevance of the majority of these options *UNTIL* set bonuses and fight mechanics are explained better. But I can say the flavor and variety of these choices seem... lackluster right now. There's nothing that would make me go, *oh well in a Patchwerk type fight I totally wanna change my playstyle to __blank__ as opposed to a TOC faction Champions style fight I would totally have to change to a __Blank__ playstyle!*

Remember T12 2 set? that was a game style changer when it first came out.

I'm still a point and shoot ele shaman either way, and the only *choices* it appears I have are, whats the highest sim right now? Cause that's the only reason I'll pick anything, if its 0.1% better dps, guess what, that's whats going to make or break the talent for me. I was kind of hoping to see choices that make me, cast in melee vs cast at range, or maybe a self buff that increases all damage dealt by 4% but I take 2% of that damage redirected back to me or something.

I don't have a good alternative, but I empathize with those who say, "Yea, these kinda aren't much of a choice."

[Blitond]

Agreed, and I wouldn't have such an issue with EG if the CD wasn't so punishing.
Well on live Earth's Grasp and Earthbind have a 15 second cooldown. It was doubled for whatever reason in MoP, and that makes it a bit harder to justify since its so easy to eliminate.

You have to remember that Totemic Restoration will reduce the CD of Earthgrab Totem as well (If your using it for root which is the case most times for me). Root melee then recall totem so you get 10-15 seconds off its cd.

Totemic Restoration is SO strong it is extremely hard for me to justify the other 2.

---------- Post added 2012-05-06 at 11:45 AM ----------

I'll forward my opinion with the the fact we have zero knowledge what MOP endgame will look like. Already I can tell you if there's another UltraxionH type fight, tier 1 Astral Shift will be 100% required *for my play style*; everything in tier 2, 3 and 4 seems garbage.

How is T4 garbage? Straight damage/healing throughput, although there are concerns with EotE's overhealing for resto. I don't really like giving up EM from a spec ability, but meh we get some other CD's to make up for it. I also have some issues with the removal of the +damage that was associated with EM as well. That was a big part of it's mechanic in both PvE and PvP.

Yes I agree though, there likely won't be a choice in this tree due to 1 of the 3 being better (more damage output).

[Sparkalark]

Ya, garbage in that the choice seems boiled down to, what gives me highest numbers via sim? That isn't a fun choice for me.

[mrinvisable2]

well i will share my thoughts .So i had no problems with totems having 5 hp until mop as our bufs are now auras and our totems become cooldowns their hp must have 10 % of shaman hp. cooldowns are important so we must force to chose witch one they will destroy and for some spec there are to many glyphs for pvp to use 1 that increases teir hp, but for magma and siering totems they can be left 5 hp as they are easy to recast OR give glyph that gives 25-50% chance to stun attackers if they attack non elemental totems.
1)Nature's Guardian dont fit there its in every way infierior to other 2 and doesnt realy fit as its not dmg mitigation
Bulwark shield seems fine maybe could be little bit more powerful but this limits us not use earth grab totem
Astral shift is awesome but should be 8 sec duration and able to cast stuned/ feared/ silenced as its original version activated then ( in wotlik)

2) frozen power is awesome but annoying for elemental it should be removed from sharec lockout but cooldown increased to 8 sec as we dont use it pve so it wont be THE SKILL BARRIER there
Earthgrab Totem well its nice but dont like that its duration is reduced and cooldown increased
Windwalk totem somehow it doesn't fits here or could be a better personal hand of freedom type with less cd

3) Call of elements is clear winner here for pve its
Totemic Restoration 100% for pvp
Totemic Projection say WHAAAAT? we wanted this but to chose from abowe way to inferior and should be reworked

4) Elemental Mastery well nerfed version compared to live now just flat 30 % haste isnt great for enha as their mechanic arent changed and is as t13 4set bonus for resto but i understand its nerfed dmg increase portion because of ascendance it would be insane with Unleashed furry as combined 40 % increased dmg for lvb . But i thik it should be back for ele only as 15-20 % haste buff but in this place added something new
Ancestral Swiftness 5 % haste omg how boring witch class have something like that in their tree but good for resto from 2 min to 1 min would be awesome in pvp but i think 5% haste should be replaced with some efect after using that talent
Echo of the Element resto avoid it like plague as our heals are huge with mastery so it most of time will be over heal . good for ele and enha. For resto it would be usable if it would be smart heal like Ancestral Guidance or also had chance to proc from hr elw and riptide

5)Healing Tide Totem Classic and boring heal but better than nothing
Ancestral Guidance pure awesome talent good mode with ch , cl and lava beam works well with ascendance cant complain about it except would be awesome to reset it call of elements but still for 2 min cd its good
Conductivity and there is this. good talent idea but .... my suggestions for ele as u are dpsing chance to prock instant HR, for enha ad more spells , for resto could be way stronger but with DR or if it is bil talrger DR, could add it worked with CL its only logical its also electricity based spell but i gues 10 % of dmg healed would be fair. But original version of flowing waters 10% spel dmg reduciton is OP ( beth, domo, ultra, Zonooz, blackthorn,spne, madnes) would be so awesome

6) Unleashed Fury this is them trying to fix broken spell witch added in cata useless for ele good for enha good for basically pvp resto but:
effect for ele is nice
effect for enh(windfurry) way boring
effect for resto unimaginative but if they intend is to let it work for resto With HR 80% stronger hr i could go with that
frostband nice
Rockbiter is good but if only GCD is remove for imbues 3 gcd is to much for it

Primal Elementalist moar dps but elementals seems to be weaker that htey are now so 50 % increase relative would be on pair with prepoting and poc now so waste? and for dps fire ele channeled spell is way to lackluster and boring I WOULD LIKE WHEN CHANALED it would change some spell to do more dmg ore new efect. but for esto 40% uptime for 10 % healing increase is good but to simple for last tear talents

Elemental Blast big nuke ability with buff part seems by tooltip it will be our hardest hitting ability but its so sad talent for resto simple solution singe target heal or light of dawn effect



But over all i am disappointed with our talents large part is just reused stuff these are reused talents/ abilities / or something we had
Nature's Guardian - resto tree talent
Stone Bulwark Totem - bust have pvp glyph now ( stoneclaw)
Astral Shift - i still think its inferior version of ele old talent that reduced dmg while silenced /feared/ stuned as its then when ppl take mos tof dmg
Frozen Power - enh talent now
Earthgrab Totem - ele talent now
Elemental Mastery - talent in ele tree now
Ancestral Swiftness - talent in resto tree
Healing Tide Totem - healing mana tide
Ancestral Guidance - in away works like Ancestral awakening
Unleashed Fury - unleashed elements
Primal Elementalist - controllable pets for enha now enha suffers with dumb ed down woolfs

So 11 unimaginative / rehashed/ reworked / boosted talents imagine 11

[Aviators]

it can't be cancelled by a swing of a weapon.

What? the earthgrab totem is an instant root, and thanks to Blitond for pointing this out, with totemic restoration if your totem is destroyed, it resets to 15 or so seconds.

[rogas]

man, i do love this new mop elemental build ;-) totally imba ;-)

blizz did an awesome job ... no dought about that

[Irisel]

Why does everything have to be DIRECT DAMAGE or HEALING? It makes me hate things that say that, right off the bat.

For example: Ancestral Guidance & Conductivity. Not going to use these, if I take the glyph of Riptide. There are too many contradictorily!!

[StaeleAilar]

Yeah i have to agree the talents for shamans currently are a bit.. lacking for my tastes.

I re-mained to my shaman at the end of wrath for cata and it looks like i may now be re-maining again to something else for MoP. If i continue playing >.>

[Deleted]

I think the community should be in charge of making the shaman. LOL.

Well, I guess if the entire shaman community actually agreed on everything, it might be a start. This thread and the official MOP changes thread is a clear indication that we do NOT agree on everything....... :-)

[Omanley]

They should pick a couple of shaman players who prove that they can bring forward constructive, balanced and thought through, fair, fun, useful and creative suggestions.
Then have those players formulate the biggest issues they see in the class, and have everyone with an active account and high level shaman character which had to have been max for at least two or three months put their vote on need it or dont need it.

Power of democracy, guided by eloquent shaman players that love their class.

Shaman buff totems and aoe is one of things everyone agreed to needs fixing. Other issues are not as apparant and need pointed out and fixed.

[Teriz]

They should pick a couple of shaman players who prove that they can bring forward constructive, balanced and thought through, fair, fun, useful and creative suggestions.
Then have those players formulate the biggest issues they see in the class, and have everyone with an active account and high level shaman character which had to have been max for at least two or three months put their vote on need it or dont need it.

Power of democracy, guided by eloquent shaman players that love their class.

Shaman buff totems and aoe is one of things everyone agreed to needs fixing. Other issues are not as apparant and need pointed out and fixed.

I think most Shaman agree that Totemic Projection should be baseline, and that Conductivity should be reworked into something that benefits Enhance and Elemental more. Also any totems that come from talents or have long cooldowns (more than 15 seconds) should have 10% of the Shaman's health.

[Deleted]

I think most Shaman agree that Totemic Projection should be baseline, and that Conductivity should be reworked into something that benefits Enhance and Elemental more. Also any totems that come from talents or have long cooldowns (more than 15 seconds) should have 10% of the Shaman's health.

I think those assumptions only reveal your prejudices I'm afraid. Lets break them down one by one.

Totemic Projection baseline: People occasionally pop up mentioning a situational use for it and that's great, but other than those who have been demanding it for years it seems most everyone ignores it barring those specific situational uses.

Conductivity reworked: It's fine for elemental, I think you're actually the first person I've seen who claims otherwise. It does need a change to benefit enhance more yes, but no-one here has disagreed with that.

Totem Health: This change would be completely irrelevant to anyone playing PvE, if your totems are being targetted by PvE mobs then you've got bigger problems.

There is a definite theme running through all of these suggestions though. All of these changes would act as a direct buff to enhance, specifically PvP enhance, either by saving you glyph slots (Totemic Vigour)or allowing you to have the totem laucher and still take Call of Elements. What you propose is either irrelevant to, or provides no benefit to Elemental or Restoration in PvE, and little benefit to them in PvP either.

Talents and glyphs are supposed to be a tradeoff so that you end up with a set of abilities that suit you and the situation you're dealing with: They are not your christmas list to Santa.

[Deleted]

I think most Shaman agree that Totemic Projection should be baseline, and that Conductivity should be reworked into something that benefits Enhance and Elemental more. Also any totems that come from talents or have long cooldowns (more than 15 seconds) should have 10% of the Shaman's health.

As Curdle said, this post shows the problems with your posts.

- You say most shaman think Totemic Projection should be baseline. I disagree. Part of the skill of Totems is the placing of them, if you can just move them around all the time it removes that element. You can talent to gain that ability but at the loss of potential totem uptime by losing cooldown reduction talents. Making it a choice is fine, I don't want it baseline though.

- Like Curdle said, Elemental is perfectly fine with Conductivity. I'm very excited personally for it. I feel most people likely agree it could do with a buff for Enhance - add Stormstrike or Lava Lash or something to it, but it doesn't need a rework

- Totem health is part of their design, they are designed to be easy to kill, it's the point. If you feel you need your totems to have more health then take the glyph, it is what it's there for, but it doesn't need to be baseline. We have never had it baseline and have managed fairly well for a while now, and any problems Shaman have had in PvP have not stemmed from Totem Health but other reasons (Elementals weakness to lockouts and lack of defensive cooldown outside of Thunderstorm, Enhancement's mobility and the fact Resto is very good in PvP so most people respec).

[Endus]

I think most Shaman agree that Totemic Projection should be baseline, and that Conductivity should be reworked into something that benefits Enhance and Elemental more. Also any totems that come from talents or have long cooldowns (more than 15 seconds) should have 10% of the Shaman's health.

Just to reiterate what Curdle and Undefetter have already said, as yet more evidence that "most Shaman" DON'T agree;

I don't want Totemic Projection baseline. I've never wanted the ability. I've argued against totem mobility in the past. I'm glad I have the opportunity to NOT take it. I know there's been a few who really wanted it, though, so I'm satisfied seeing them get that option in a talent.

Conductivity is just about perfect for Elemental. It needs to work off SS/LL for Enhancement, as they can't chain-cast LBs like Elemental can without destroying their DPS to a much larger degree, but for Elemental, it's absolutely fine, if not borderline OP for certain fights.

There's a glyph that addresses the totem health issue. It is a problem that has already been solved. If you want totems that can't be killed with an autoattack, it's going to cost you a glyph. Such is the nature of tradeoffs. If it's not worth the glyph slot to you, then it's not that big a deal. If it is, then you've made your choice. A glyph benefit being something you want is NOT an argument for making it default.

---------- Post added 2012-05-07 at 09:56 AM ----------

They should pick a couple of shaman players who prove that they can bring forward constructive, balanced and thought through, fair, fun, useful and creative suggestions.
Then have those players formulate the biggest issues they see in the class, and have everyone with an active account and high level shaman character which had to have been max for at least two or three months put their vote on need it or dont need it.

Power of democracy, guided by eloquent shaman players that love their class.

That's not really a democracy, it's a meritocracy. Though that's a nitpick.

There's a host of issues with this idea, though;

• Who picks? If it's the current dev team, they're going to pick players that they think understand the current design goals. If it's the players, nobody will agree on who should be picked, and for the most part it's never going to be the people who post massive "here's how to fix Shaman" posts on forums.
• Part of the reason we have a dev team is because they're not just idea jockeys. They understand the limitations of the game code. It's no good saying "X is a perfect fix" if X takes a huge amount of coding to implement; if Y is almost as good and just takes a couple minor tweaks, Y is the right pick.
• The dev team also considers game balance. They don't have a "shaman team" that only works on Shaman and to hell with those other classes lets make Shaman as awesome as we can. That's going to be the mindset of many Shaman players, and it's a destructive attitude. It would ruin the game FAR faster than anything you might think Blizzard developers are doing.
• Lastly, this isn't a democracy, nor is democracy the best way to go. The ideal form of government is benevolent dictatorship. Democracy is at the mercy of the ignorance of its "citizens", and often has a moderately glacial pace of governance. If you think development is slow NOW, democratizing it would make it take at least twice as long.

The devs already listen to and interact with the community. Trying to democratize the process would have only negative repercussions.