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  1. #21
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radux View Post
    I really have to ask... do you actually like any Shaman talents?

    From this thread and the other, I've seen basically pure hate towards T2, T4, T5, and T6... with pokes at various talents in T1 and T3.
    I actually like Frozen Power, I just hate how shocks STILL share cooldowns. I like SBT, but I don't like how easily it can get stomped. I like Totemic Projection. I just wish it wasn't a talent.

  2. #22
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I don't agree. A talent that is only viable because it works with a CD you don't get until level 87 doesn't make it a good talent.

    Echo of Elements and Ancestral Swiftness are much more useful talents for Elemental across the board.
    Sub-87 is irrelevant. Blizzard doesn't tune or balance PvE or PvP for anything other than the level cap. Every Shaman who's actually involved in the theorycrafting that matters will be level 90. Nobody is concerned about the performance of a level 80 twink.

    I didn't say FP wasn't useful for Elemental. I said that it works against the spec because Frozen Power shares a cooldown with Flame Shock and Earth Shock; two major components of Elemental DPS.
    And Elemental Shaman already use Frost Shock. Frozen Power just enhances a spell they already use. The idea that this is a "conflict" makes no sense. It suggests that you do not understand the way priority systems work. If the CC is more desirable to you than DPS, you'll use Frost Shock rather than Earth or Flame Shock. In those cases, Frozen Power improves Frost Shock, and may indeed bump it up the priority slightly as a result. This is NOT a conflict, it's a priority change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Its not bad because of performance, its bad because it goes against the point of the new talent system which is supposed to be about choice. Talents shouldn't be overwhelmingly more powerful than other talents. See point #3 in the OP.
    It isn't overwhelmingly more powerful. You are deliberately and dishonestly misquoting Binkenstein in saying so. What Binkenstein said was "Elemental Mastery is going to be the clear choice from level 60". "Clear" means he can mathematically justify one being a greater DPS increase most of the time. Not that it is overwhelmingly greater than the other choices.

    Plus, he was only speaking with regards to Elemental, and with Elemental's valuation of Haste in mind. For Resto, the passive Haste of Nature's Swiftness and the instant cast when needed is going to be a big advantage in healing, at least comparable to EM's better window of throughput, and Echo of the Elements will have interesting potential for both Enhancement and Resto as well.

    Plus, it's quite possible that later in the expansion, we'll be hitting Haste caps with EM+BL up, meaning you either need to separate the two CDs, possibly for a DPS loss, or just take another talent so you can have better performance during Bloodlust/Heroism. We already hit Haste caps pretty easily with the current incarnation, which is only +20% spell haste; the main reason we still stack EM and BL/Hero is because it's worth it for the damage boost portion alone. That wouldn't remain true in MoP, most likely.

    I'm not disagreeing with Binkenstein's conclusion, EM is probably going to retain the edge unless there are further tweaks, but it's not destroying the other two by an overwhelming margin.


  3. #23
    Endus I was the one who posted the link. I wasn't deliberately or dishonestly misquoting him. To be perfectly clear I posted the link because Teriz, in the original post, said Elemental Mastery was weak (overall, not specific to any one spec) and that Echo of the Elements was far and away the best for Elemental. Binkenstein very clearly disproves both of those claims.

    I was not, nor should anyone else, claiming that Elemental Mastery was far and away the best for Elemental. I did claim because I took Bink's post as saying so that it is far and away the best on a fight where you can use Ascendance twice, once with Elemental Mastery and the other with Bloodlust.

    On the topic of EM and the rest of the tier, my choice on which talent to take depends on which talent I take in the next tier. Elemental Mastery compliments Ancestral Guidance and Conductivity. EM can be used with AG all the time and the extra damage/healing you can put out with EM up affects the healing you put out with AG up. EM will also allow you to cast more Lightning Bolts while under Healing Rain, clearly good for Elemental but nice for Restoration when you need to regen mana but still do some healing. I would be very curious if there is a haste "soft cap" where EM could make the cast time of Lightning Bolt worth it for Enhancement to hard cast while under Healing Rain. If I took Healing Tide Totem I would probably take Ancestral Swiftness as Restoration, undecided on Elemental. Reason being I see Echo of the Elements as having the same problem with Ancestral Awakening, most of the healing is overhealing. Though oddly I don't find that true with Windward Heart.
    Last edited by Rahdik; 2012-05-05 at 03:25 AM.

  4. #24
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahdik View Post
    Endus I was the one who posted the link. I wasn't deliberately or dishonestly misquoting him. To be perfectly clear I posted the link because Teriz, in the original post, said Elemental Mastery was weak (overall, not specific to any one spec) and that Echo of the Elements was far and away the best for Elemental. Binkenstein very clearly disproves both of those claims.
    No, I know, that wasn't aimed at you. But, your posting that made Teriz change from "Elemental Mastery is weak" to "Elemental Mastery is overwhelmingly strong".

    It comes out mathematically ahead, but that doesn't make it "overwhelmingly strong" compared to the others. That's where I took issue with what Teriz was saying.

  5. #25
    Cookie Monster Radux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahdik View Post
    If I took Healing Tide Totem I would probably take Ancestral Swiftness as Restoration, undecided on Elemental. Reason being I see Echo of the Elements as having the same problem with Ancestral Awakening, most of the healing is overhealing.
    Well, yeah AA does its fair share of overhealing. The issue with EotE and Restoration comes down to the fact that it is not a smart heal. This means if your GHW is already going to top the person (with minimal overhealing), your proc is 100% overheal.

  6. #26
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And Elemental Shaman already use Frost Shock. Frozen Power just enhances a spell they already use. The idea that this is a "conflict" makes no sense. It suggests that you do not understand the way priority systems work. If the CC is more desirable to you than DPS, you'll use Frost Shock rather than Earth or Flame Shock. In those cases, Frozen Power improves Frost Shock, and may indeed bump it up the priority slightly as a result. This is NOT a conflict, it's a priority change.
    The conflict stems from my primary form of CC being tied to my core DPS abilities which I am already juggling. Again, this wouldn't be a problem if FP was on a separate cooldown. If that were the case THEN it would be a priority change, not a full blown conflict between three abilities stuck on the same cooldown.

    I'm not disagreeing with Binkenstein's conclusion, EM is probably going to retain the edge unless there are further tweaks, but it's not destroying the other two by an overwhelming margin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Binkenstien
    For the revamped talents, Elemental Mastery is going to be the clear choice from level 60, mostly because of stacking it with Ascendance (if you work it right, you'll be able to get one Ascendance cast with Bloodlust, and the other with Elemental Mastery, whereas of the level 90 talents it's coming down between Unleashed Fury and Primal Elementalist (which I've yet to get decent numbers on). Elemental Blast just falls by the way side because it doesn't pack much of a punch.
    There's a difference between merely having an edge and being the clear choice. As a DPS Shaman, why would you not choose the talent that will give you a DPS boost?

  7. #27
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The conflict stems from my primary form of CC being tied to my core DPS abilities which I am already juggling. Again, this wouldn't be a problem if FP was on a separate cooldown. If that were the case THEN it would be a priority change, not a full blown conflict between three abilities stuck on the same cooldown.
    That's not an issue with the talent, since juggling those shocks is part of your core gameplay. Frozen Power doesn't make you juggle anything you weren't already juggling.

    There's a difference between merely having an edge and being the clear choice. As a DPS Shaman, why would you not choose the talent that will give you a DPS boost?
    No, the way Binkenstein runs the math, a mathematical edge means there's a clear choice. When one glyph provided 50 more DPS than another in sims, it was the "clear choice". Despite that being 0.1% of your simmed DPS at the time.

  8. #28
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That's not an issue with the talent, since juggling those shocks is part of your core gameplay. Frozen Power doesn't make you juggle anything you weren't already juggling.
    Actually it does, since I will be using Frozen Power more than I would be using Frost Shock.

    No, the way Binkenstein runs the math, a mathematical edge means there's a clear choice. When one glyph provided 50 more DPS than another in sims, it was the "clear choice". Despite that being 0.1% of your simmed DPS at the time.
    But again, if a talent is giving you a clear DPS edge, why would you ever choose the other two talents?

  9. #29
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Actually it does, since I will be using Frozen Power more than I would be using Frost Shock.
    That's a change in priority. Which is what I said, and you supposedly disagreed with.
    But again, if a talent is giving you a clear DPS edge, why would you ever choose the other two talents?
    Personal preference, situational circumstances, etc.

    And tuning isn't finished yet, either.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Actually it does, since I will be using Frozen Power more than I would be using Frost Shock.
    I am confused.
    I am not trying to troll, I just do not understand this statement.

  11. #31
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cakala View Post
    I am confused.
    I am not trying to troll, I just do not understand this statement.
    People who choose Frozen Power as a talent will be using it more often than people who don't talent into it and still have Frost Shock.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-05 at 04:00 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That's a change in priority. Which is what I said, and you supposedly disagreed with.
    So you then agree that Frozen Power will be used more than Frost Shock ever was?

    Personal preference, situational circumstances, etc.

    And tuning isn't finished yet, either.
    While I agree that tuning isn't finished yet, the only way they can stop this from happening is to change Elemental Mastery itself, or have it not effect Ascendance. There aren't going to be too many Shaman who are going to avoid picking up the talent that buffs their most powerful cooldown.

    BTW, Bink's opinion on Elemental Blast isn't very encouraging either.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2012-05-05 at 04:03 AM.

  12. #32
    Herald of the Titans Irisel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radux View Post
    Well, yeah AA does its fair share of overhealing. The issue with EotE and Restoration comes down to the fact that it is not a smart heal. This means if your GHW is already going to top the person (with minimal overhealing), your proc is 100% overheal.
    This is, or should be, a glaring hole in the talent for Resto. It should be a smart heal.

    Thing is, I think it's totally boring, even if it got buffed to being smart. It's AA and Elem's mastery rolled into one, while both still exist. ZZZzzz

    Rule of Thumb: If the healer's HPS is higher than your DPS, you're doing it wrong.

  13. #33
    Cookie Monster Radux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irisel View Post
    This is, or should be, a glaring hole in the talent for Resto. It should be a smart heal.

    Thing is, I think it's totally boring, even if it got buffed to being smart. It's AA and Elem's mastery rolled into one, while both still exist. ZZZzzz
    Yeah, but I guess this is where (if, in a vacuum, everything were equal) personal preference would come into play. Unless I macro stuff (like On-Use trinkets) into other stuff, I always forget to use them. Proc stuff is right up my alley.

    I would definitely be up for it being a smart heal, though I have a feeling that could be a monster to keep balanced.

  14. #34
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radux View Post
    Yeah, but I guess this is where (if, in a vacuum, everything were equal) personal preference would come into play.
    And it needs to be emphasized; you not LIKING some of the talents doesn't matter. It only matters if they cannot provide a reasonable benefit that's in a similar league with the others of its tier. If you only LIKE one of the three talents, that's fine, pick that talent. If you don't really like any, well, that's unfortunate, but it doesn't mean there's a mechanical issue that needs fixing.

  15. #35
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radux View Post
    Yeah, but I guess this is where (if, in a vacuum, everything were equal) personal preference would come into play. Unless I macro stuff (like On-Use trinkets) into other stuff, I always forget to use them. Proc stuff is right up my alley.

    I would definitely be up for it being a smart heal, though I have a feeling that could be a monster to keep balanced.
    Is tier 4 even necessary? Blizzard should really consider redoing it along with a few of the other talents.

  16. #36
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Is tier 4 even necessary? Blizzard should really consider redoing it along with a few of the other talents.
    Define "necessary" in any way that doesn't provide a circular argument to support your preconceived conclusion, first.

  17. #37
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Define "necessary" in any way that doesn't provide a circular argument to support your preconceived conclusion, first.
    Necessary in that its removal would harm the class' overall performance. Currently, the only balanced talent in the tree is Ancestral Swiftness. The tier may need a revamp.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Radux View Post
    While I love and value Bink's theorycrafting, that specific example assumes basically a stand and nuke kinda fight and a certain level of gear. If you're already hitting close to that 1 second cast time, then EM will push you lower than that, thus wasting some of the effect. That's when something like EotE can really push ahead (as well as using it with something like Bloodlust, which would increase the chance of proccing it).
    If there's another freaking raid wide haste buff boss fight, I'll add it as a haste toggle to evaluate that sort of stuff. I also want to work on handling movement somehow

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Plus, it's quite possible that later in the expansion, we'll be hitting Haste caps with EM+BL up, meaning you either need to separate the two CDs, possibly for a DPS loss, or just take another talent so you can have better performance during Bloodlust/Heroism. We already hit Haste caps pretty easily with the current incarnation, which is only +20% spell haste; the main reason we still stack EM and BL/Hero is because it's worth it for the damage boost portion alone. That wouldn't remain true in MoP, most likely.

    I'm not disagreeing with Binkenstein's conclusion, EM is probably going to retain the edge unless there are further tweaks, but it's not destroying the other two by an overwhelming margin.
    Generally for haste only buffs, you don't stack them. The only reason we do that with EM at the moment is due to the damage buff that's going away in Mists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    No, the way Binkenstein runs the math, a mathematical edge means there's a clear choice. When one glyph provided 50 more DPS than another in sims, it was the "clear choice". Despite that being 0.1% of your simmed DPS at the time.
    By "clear" I mean a good 40% higher than the other two talents in terms of output. Without considering Ascendance it's about even, but that buff stacking is a big bonus. I tend to label 0.1% differences as marginal or subjective (like with the LvB/LB glyphs until we realised the overload issues)
    Last edited by binkenstein; 2012-05-05 at 04:31 AM.

  19. #39
    Cookie Monster Radux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by binkenstein View Post
    If there's another freaking raid wide haste buff boss fight, I'll add it as a haste toggle to evaluate that sort of stuff. I also want to work on handling movement somehow
    Yeah I get it. I wasn't trying to poke holes in the math/theory, but merely trying to show that there are opportunities for choice given the fight mechanics, thus putting Blizzard's design for talents as being 'right on'.

  20. #40
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Necessary in that its removal would harm the class' overall performance. Currently, the only balanced talent in the tree is Ancestral Swiftness. The tier may need a revamp.
    Then yes, they're necessary, because removing them would clearly harm the class' overall performance. I have no idea where you'd get the impression otherwise.

    EotE is balanced pretty close to Ancestral Swiftness, too, the reason EM pushes so much higher is because it's a cooldown, the others are passive boosts. EotE is just proccy on a low chance, and AS is a static Haste boost with an instant cast option on a shortish CD.

    Quote Originally Posted by binkenstein View Post
    By "clear" I mean a good 40% higher than the other two talents in terms of output. Without considering Ascendance it's about even, but that buff stacking is a big bonus. I tend to label 0.1% differences as marginal or subjective (like with the LvB/LB glyphs until we realised the overload issues)
    Okay, with the lack of data in the blog post I didn't realize it was that prevalent. I'm hopeful the other two options get a bit of a tweak to make up the difference, but that's also the kind of scaling adjustments I wouldn't have necessarily expected by now.
    Last edited by Endus; 2012-05-05 at 04:44 AM.

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