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  1. #81
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blitond View Post
    1. Either I'm not making my point clear enough for you to understand. If this is the case, then I don't know what else to say or how to say it sorry. I've tried to explain why its different and important, but I just might not be to effective at relaying my thoughts.

    2. You firmly set in your views. If this is the case then were getting nowhere because I believe just as strongly in mine. People have different views on how thing should work, there's not a problem with it, but after a while it gets redundant arguing them and feels like talking to a brick wall.

    3. You like to argue just to argue. If this is the case then were running in circles going nowhere.
    Or 4. A lot of the language being used is weighted, leading to conversational bias that detracts from the actual points being made, and I'm trying to get people back to discussing things in a reasonable, friendly tone, and without portraying their own preferences as if they were incontrovertible facts.

    It feels like Blizzard is giving us some shinny new toys then saying oh wait you can only play with them for 5 seconds a week.
    Like this. The rest of your point there was well-written, and I can get behind the idea that totems maybe need to be a bit more sturdy in the new design.

    When you start saying "Blizzard gave us stuff but then took it away because they're meanieheads who hate shaman and/or don't know what they're doing", that's when discussion shuts down and the conversation becomes one giant "NO U" fest.
    Ideas of just increasing the health of these totems. I really don't like these ideas but they are better than nothing. They are just feel bland and can still get 1-2 shot by DPS which doesn't solve much.
    To be fair, I've suggested some options myself in the past. I don't think they should be killable in a single autoattack, but killable by any instant-cast ability or auto-attack proc (like Windfury proccing, or the like) would be just fine. That would help make killing a totem a conscious, deliberate choice, while still keeping it easy to accomplish, and will usualy require you to burn a GCD and possibly put an ability on CD or use up an attack proc (a Windfury on your totems is a Windfury that wasn't on you).

    The comments about not liking totems is silly and childish. It's not like myself and other don't like totems or want them to be invincible abilities that have no counter, I just don't want them to be countered by EVERYTHING.
    Omanley specifically compared them to Rogue abilities that, in his own words, were "undestructible". I only mentioned invulnerable totems before that as an example of a reductio ad absurdum, and it wasn't in direct reference to anything you said. I apologize if you got that feeling (though I stand by the comment made to Omanley, since he DID imply indestructibility was what he wanted).

    When people say "I don't like my stationary buff sticks that can be killed forcing me to lose the buff", they're saying they don't like totems, which means they don't like Shaman. We can discuss tweaking some of those factors; I can agree that they're maybe TOO easy to kill right now, and Totemic Projection allows for some mobility, but that doesn't mean they should be invulnerable floating sticks that follow you everywhere (and while nobody here has suggested that specifically, it HAS been suggested in the past by people). I like the idea that my totems are vulnerable. It forces me to think strategically, to find spots to drop them out of LOS, to use terrain against people, even to bait them deliberately by dropping a totem I KNOW they'll want to kill to get them off me for a second. This is a reason I like the class. If I wanted a melee/ranged/healer class with a shapeshift for movement speed and NOT to have to deal with totems, I'd play a Druid.

    As for the glyph argument, your right I don't want to be forced to use a glyph for something central to the class. Choices should be more like the purge, spiritwalkers grace or windsear glyph. I don't want to have options that are already chosen for me.
    Some players have expressed exactly the same complaints about those other glyphs as well. What you're saying is that you want more than the three glyphs you're limited to, which is really saying that there's a lot of good choices and the decision isn't easy. Which means the design is working properly. The whole idea with the revamp is to make these choices more interesting, meaning there isn't a default set of choices that work for 90% of all circumstances. You might end up finding a set that works for you for that many circumstances, but if others are making different choices, everything's exactly as it should be.

    By your same rationality then why even have more than 3 glyphs per spec if this philosophy remains the same? Every time an Elemental is moving for more than X seconds they will glyph for unleashed lightning am I not right?
    Because choices mean consequences. Even if just by taking up a slot that could have been taken by a different choice.

    If we're talking PvE, I'll probably end up taking Unleashed Lightning. But for two reasons; personal convenience, and because I'm currently planning of going with Unleashed Fury, pending further scaling testing at level 90. I like the flexibility UF provides with imbue swaps, and taking it will mean basically using UE on cooldown, meaning I wouldn't have it available as a movement tool like we did in T11. If I went with, say, Primal Elementalist instead, Glyph of Unleashed Lightning might not be as appealing. The change to crits and the potential for longer Flame Shocks really increases the value of the base Unleash Fire effect, too, making it probably much more competitive compared to LBs, at 90.

    I'm hopeful our glyphs get another passover though. We had some interesting ones (Glyph of Lava Burst, for Elemental) that didn't stick around, and there aren't so many that it'll be much of a choice for most specs. Glyph of Chain Lightning, for instance, will be of less value in MoP, since Lava Beam hits 5 targets by default, meaning you can keep unglyphed CL for cleave situations, if you're popping Ascendance for full AoE. Or glyph it and save Ascendance for single-target burns.

    Other than those two glyphs, though, the rest seem pretty basic. Glyph of Flame Shock is probably a given since it will be a DPS increase in raiding, the rest are very situational.
    Last edited by Endus; 2012-06-13 at 03:44 AM.

  2. #82
    Totems are like my dog.

    I love him, feed him, pet him and bathe him.

    But boy do i fucking hate him when every time i come home he has to wipe is ass on the carpet.

  3. #83
    Defensive/healing totems that grand the user a benifit over time shouldn't be killable. Or should at least have lots more hp, so then can't be killed that easily.

    ---> Stone bullward totem - earthgrab/bind totem - healing tide/stream totem

    bth, using the minor glyph 'totemic encirclement' works too...

  4. #84
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Totem health isn't essential. I've never felt any need for it in any of the PvE content I've run. I can see the potential value it can have in PvP, as an option, but its not required there; Shaman have done fine in PvP with 5hp totems in the past.
    In the past, essential totems didn't have hefty cooldowns.

    You've failed to provide any actual argument that totem health IS "essential". You've resorted to circular reasoning every time you're asked to.
    I already have numerous times. You've just chosen to ignore it. There's no reason a major defensive/offensive CD should be able to be stomped by a weapon swing. This is especially true of a shield and a CC.

    No. You don't. You can take CotE, and use that to reset the CDs immediately. Or take Glyph of Totemic Vigor and rely on that to make your totems unappealing to kill. Choices.
    The problem with that is if you reset the CDs on the totems, they can just be stomped again, and now CotE is stuck on an 8 minute cooldown. Totemic Restoration is the only talent that actually works in our favor in terms of totem stomping.

    No, because it isn't. It's irrational and emotional. And let's be clear; the reason a level 2 mob/player killed your totem is because you weren't paying attention and let them run up and smack it. Where is this ever an issue, anyway? The only circumstance that springs to mind is attacking an enemy's city, and you're SUPPOSED to be at a disadvantage there.
    Um, how is it irrational? Is it true or not that anything can kill a totem? Is it not true that some of our most powerful abilities in MoP are tied to said totems? Where's the irrationality?

    Again, this is an issue now because the totem system has been changed from buffs to powerful cooldowns.



    Okay, the reason I keep picking on your arguments isn't because I think totem health NEEDS to stay at 5 health.

    It's because you keep using biased and weighted language like "forced" to describe your own personal decision-making. Absolutely nothing forces you to take that glyph. You CHOOSE to take it because you like the benefit it provides. That is not "forcing", and construing it as such is dishonest. Watch how you're phrasing things, and stop using biased language. You can take that as an official warning.
    What forces me to take that glyph is the low HP of the totems themselves. You really think an enemy player is going to let a Capacitor Totem go off if they know they can just whack it with a stick and kill it? You shouldn't be able to shut down such critical abilities in that fashion.

    I wouldn't have any issue with someone who said "I think totem health should be 10% of Shaman health".
    Fine. I think totem health should be 10% of shaman health across the board. I believe this because totems are such a major part of our gameplay, and shouldn't be able to be stopped so easily.

    Satisfied?


    See, this is a decent expression of an argument. I don't have any real issue with any of this, and I've said much the same in other threads.

    The issue is that when I make similar points about Shaman, you revert back to using biased language and pretending that there's a major difference in the quality and relative value with Shaman talents.

    Others and myself have used similar language about Shaman Tier 5, and you replied by insisting;


    Nobody was claiming Tier 5 added DPS; that it added utility healing and NOT DPS was a negative, to you.

    And yet, when we look at a similarly-oriented tier for Druids, you wax poetic about how valuable that diversification is.

    You have a double standard. For some reason, you're out to prove that Shaman class design "sucks", and you use biased language and twist your perceptions where necessary to justify it.

    The reason I never included Druids in my original critique of the Shaman talents is because Druids are different hybrids than Paladins, Monks, Priests, and Shaman. Druids mimic other classes. A Guardian Druid for example is essentially a Warrior, a Feral Druid is essentially a Rogue, and Balance Druids were Mages. The forms locked your role into place, so you couldn't heal while in Moonkin form, you couldn't Tank in Cat form, and you couldn't cast ranged spells in Bear form, and so forth. Other hybrids never had this restriction, which is why you see Paladins, Priests and now Monks popping up with talents that do damage/healing, or (as in the case of Selfless Healer and Eternal Flame) have components from DPS that can easily work with the talent, which doesn't obstruct your role. This consequently benefits all of their specs pretty equally.

    Druids make up for this by being able to cast their ability talents in ALL of their forms, which is a game-changer for the class, and consequently benefits all Druid specs equally.

    In short, Shaman should be similar to Monks, Paladins, and Priests in the type of talents they receive. I just pointed out the Druid talents because they're pretty bold overall, and I would really like to see that kind of risk taking be utilized in the creation of Shaman talents.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2012-05-05 at 10:59 PM.

  5. #85
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    In the past, essential totems didn't have hefty cooldowns.
    Mana Tide totem, Fire Elemental Totem, Earth Elemental Totem, and in Cata, Tremor Totem and Spirit Link totem.

    Totems with hefty CDs aren't a new thing. Plus, this is entirely separate from what we were talking about before, stop changing the subject.

    Um, how is it irrational? Is it true or not that anything can kill a totem? Is it not true that some of our most powerful abilities in MoP are tied to said totems? Where's the irrationality?
    Because you go from those statements, and reach the conclusion that the ability design is broken because totems can be easily killed.

    You've failed to provide any premises that take you from "anything can kill a totem" and "some of our abilities are tied to totems" to that conclusion, hence it's irrational.

    What forces me to take that glyph is the low HP of the totems themselves. You really think an enemy player is going to let a Capacitor Totem go off if they know they can just whack it with a stick and kill it? You shouldn't be able to shut down such critical abilities in that fashion.
    Perhaps you didn't see it in the last post. Official moderator warning; cease and desist using weighted and biased language like "forced" to describe your own personal preferences. You will not get an additional warning.

    or (as in the case of Selfless Healer and Eternal Flame) have components from DPS that can easily work with the talent, which doesn't obstruct your role. This consequently benefits all of their specs pretty equally.
    Selfless healer does NOT have a DPS component, and Eternal Flame is a significant DPS loss to a Ret Paladin. That Holy Power is Holy Power that isn't being used on DPS. Claiming either talent has a "dps component" is flat-out untrue.

  6. #86
    let's all just agree that the current totem system can still use some more fine-tuning? Let's hope blizzard gonna have a second look before they release mop.

    Did some pvp in mop beta. It's save to say mop elemental pvp is in a much better place then what's life atm ...

  7. #87
    I honestly believe the person who does Shaman stuff at Blizzard has no interest in the Shaman.
    It's like they don't have enough staff and they made the druid guy do it when he has time.

    I think the community should be in charge of making the shaman. LOL.

    The final tier pet talent, should offer a different pet depending on your specialization. Fire Elemental for Elemental, Earth Elemental for Resto (except its defensive abilities are replaced with healing ones). Spirit Wolves for Enhancement. That way we don't get all these crazy bad ass pets and don't feel like a pet class. Also we all get pet bars for each.

    The improved Unleashed elements is boring but meh. Why do we even have so many imbues for the love of god.

    Elemental Blast... blast them with a cone of elements. okay.

    I'm not even playing my resto shaman come MoP, rolling a druid. (srs) too many things changed / didn't happen to my appeal. (Just personal preference)

  8. #88
    Pit Lord Protoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogas View Post
    Defensive/healing totems that grand the user a benifit over time shouldn't be killable. Or should at least have lots more hp, so then can't be killed that easily.

    ---> Stone bullward totem - earthgrab/bind totem - healing tide/stream totem

    bth, using the minor glyph 'totemic encirclement' works too...

    I agree. Totems need some stronger base defense. With dispels being harder to use and more abilities being undispellable (like aveng wrath), it's about time that totem defense got an update.

    I think ALL "defensive/support" totems should have 10% of caster HP. Some have this but certain totems are still missing it such as bulwark, SLT, HST.

    Also, ALL totems should have a passive effect that puts a shield on the totem when it gets dropped which will absorb one direct melee or spell attack. This means it would take 2 direct hits to kill a normal 5hp totem and provide you atleast a few sec to benefit from the totem effect before it gets killed.

    I think this is a long overdue update. Totems used to be easy to redrop or replace, but now they all have long cd's and some are very important to us....they need more protection, every class has easy access to instant spells.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Totem health isn't essential. I've never felt any need for it in any of the PvE content I've run. I can see the potential value it can have in PvP, as an option, but its not required there; Shaman have done fine in PvP with 5hp totems in the past.

    You've failed to provide any actual argument that totem health IS "essential". You've resorted to circular reasoning every time you're asked to.
    In light of the changes to dispel mechanics, I do think that certain totems deserve a health increase maybe 10%. This would make our abilities like MTT and SBT harder to "dispel" as well. They've already done this with MTT, so Blizzard does agree that some totems are important enough to the class to need more health. I personally believe that SBT should be one of them, though I don't think that HTT should be one, though it currently is. It just seems odd that our damage reduction CD is so easily removed.


    Edit: Just remembered that they changed defensive dispels. They talked about changing offensive dispels, but as of yet that has not been done. Though it still stands that on a per totem basis Blizzard themselves think that 5 HP is not enough for certain totems.
    Last edited by Wataurenyew; 2012-05-06 at 02:04 AM.

  10. #90
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogas View Post
    Defensive/healing totems that grand the user a benifit over time shouldn't be killable. Or should at least have lots more hp, so then can't be killed that easily.

    ---> Stone bullward totem - earthgrab/bind totem - healing tide/stream totem

    bth, using the minor glyph 'totemic encirclement' works too...
    Quote Originally Posted by Protoman View Post
    I agree. Totems need some stronger base defense. With dispels being harder to use and more abilities being undispellable (like aveng wrath), it's about time that totem defense got an update.

    I think ALL "defensive/support" totems should have 10% of caster HP. Some have this but certain totems are still missing it such as bulwark, SLT, HST.

    Also, ALL totems should have a passive effect that puts a shield on the totem when it gets dropped which will absorb one direct melee or spell attack. This means it would take 2 direct hits to kill a normal 5hp totem and provide you atleast a few sec to benefit from the totem effect before it gets killed.

    I think this is a long overdue update. Totems used to be easy to redrop or replace, but now they all have long cd's and some are very important to us....they need more protection, every class has easy access to instant spells.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wataurenyew
    In light of the changes to dispel mechanics, I do think that certain totems deserve a health increase maybe 10%. This would make our abilities like MTT and SBT harder to "dispel" as well. They've already done this with MTT, so Blizzard does agree that some totems are important enough to the class to need more health. I personally believe that SBT should be one of them, though I don't think that HTT should be one, though it currently is. It just seems odd that our damage reduction CD is so easily removed.
    Agreed across the board.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2012-05-06 at 12:51 AM.

  11. #91
    Totems in pvp have always been about placement. If your totems are getting destroyed instantly, then you did not place them right. And thats where the skill comes into play.

  12. #92
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aviators View Post
    Totems in pvp have always been about placement. If your totems are getting destroyed instantly, then you did not place them right. And thats where the skill comes into play.
    And where exactly should you place a totem that has to be 10 yards away from a target to root them?

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And where exactly should you place a totem that has to be 10 yards away from a target to root them?
    Read the tooltip for Earthgrab again, its within 10 yards. Earthgrab is an instant aoe Root, and the great thing about it is that it leaves the EB snare on it.

  14. #94
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aviators View Post
    Read the tooltip for Earthgrab again, its within 10 yards. Earthgrab is an instant aoe Root, and the great thing about it is that it leaves the EB snare on it.
    I did read the tooltip, and I'm asking you where would you place it so it can't get sniped? The totem only has 5 hp on it, and has to be within 10 yards of the target. And yeah, the great thing about EG is that it applies the EB snare. However, that doesn't happen if the totem gets destroyed.

    And Earthgrab is one of our talents to boot.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2012-05-06 at 05:50 AM.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I did read the tooltip, and I'm asking you where would you place it so it can't get sniped? The totem only has 5 hp on it. And yeah, the great thing about EG is that it applies the EB snare. However, that doesn't happen if the totem gets destroyed.
    Its going to get sniped, because you have to place it within melee. Its purpose is to root the target, which it does instantly. Its the exact same mechanic ele shamans have with their Earth's grasp talent.

  16. #96
    what i think blizz has to do:


    -reduce cd of 'call of the elements' talent to 5 minutes

    -add an extra water totem 'repulsion wave totem' ... enemies get thrown back in 10 yards range

    -'repulsion wave totem' and 'capacitator totem' can't be repositioned by 'totemic projection'

    -'repulsion wave totem' and 'capacitator totem' should both have 60k hp, and therefore are hard to killl ...

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-06 at 10:23 AM ----------

    and about the good old 'earthquake' problem:

    Why can't they just introduce a new mechanic? it's not that hard... Every chainlighting cast charges your Earthquake with one stack up to 4 .... This would mean that after 4 chainlighting casts your earthquake is 'supercharged' and will deal four times as much ...


    no more brainless 'chainlightning' spamming ....

  17. #97
    Maybe add a astral phase to totems?

    Astral Totems:
    For the first 20% (adjustment required) of your totem's duration, it is protected by the chaotic energies of the twisting nether, preventing it to be targeted by others.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  18. #98
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aviators View Post
    Its going to get sniped, because you have to place it within melee. Its purpose is to root the target, which it does instantly. Its the exact same mechanic ele shamans have with their Earth's grasp talent.
    Its purpose is to give you a root for 5 seconds and/or a snare for 20 seconds. Once it gets sniped, the effect ends instantly and your CC is gone for 30 seconds.

    I have to give the edge to Frozen Power in tier 2. Not only does it do damage, but the cooldown is six seconds, and enemies can't snipe a totem and end the root before its duration ends. FP has its flaws since it runs into your other shocks, but its way better than EG for CC.

    As for the Totem survivability issue, I think we can solve it just by giving critical totems like SBT and EG 10% of the Shaman's health.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2012-05-06 at 11:23 AM.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    they're saying they don't like totems, which means they don't like Shaman.
    I fail to see this connection Endus. It is possible to not like a given mechanic of a class and still love the class for it's other unique qualities. For example, no other caster class brings the rapid fire machine gun quality that elemental does and the is the main reason I am in love with it. However, I would like to see totem inteligence improved. This doesn't make it so I hate shaman, just that I wish for them to improve a trait I see as lacking.
    Your original statement comes off as insulting and non substantiative and in my opinion feels like it is only meant to inflame the people you direct it at.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Omanley specifically compared them to Rogue abilities that, in his own words, were "undestructible". I only mentioned invulnerable totems before that as an example of a reductio ad absurdum, and it wasn't in direct reference to anything you said. I apologize if you got that feeling (though I stand by the comment made to Omanley, since he DID imply indestructibility was what he wanted).
    Sorry, but would you stop making things up? It's getting annoying. I compared them to rogue cooldowns, because it is a more logical comparison then what you used; comparing it to rage/dk runes. I explained the advantages of a rogue cooldown towards a totem. Never did I say I wanted indestructible totems. I merely used the comparison at a means to make clear that our version of pvp utility is comparable to those others have in their potency, but that those of others are not nearly as easily counterable (if at all) as ours. None here had mentioned indestructible totems. We merely were of the (mostly shared) opinion that totems received much more segnificance with being changes to cooldowns, hence requiring a better baseline survivability. In pve it wont be required, but in pvp it is a must.

    The argument that if you dont glyph something, it was just not important enough to be implemented is (btw) just as flawed as the "dont like totems, dont like shamans" line. Glyphs are supposed to add fun stuff, not to fix design fails like SCT being useless w/o a glyph.
    I would've probably never glyphed for buff totems becoming auras either, didn't make it any less a needed change. If you could instant stomp a rogues' entire cooldown arsenal in a matter of seconds, just imagine their outrage.

    This is exactly the same drawer as buff totems compared to other's aura, Hex compared to other CCs, not getting Earth Shield from a resto as enh/ele (or rather, having to reapply/sacrifice LS for it (or resto having to chose between mana reg and selfheal)), totemic elemental brackets, shared shock cooldowns. All those are drawbacks, which in most cases only shamans encounter, with it being solved MUCH better on other classes.
    Last edited by Omanley; 2012-05-06 at 11:46 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

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